MH Chuck's WW Dallas Report

[Sal]

for him to come in early and clean out dealer after dealer of books...well, that just ruins the appeal of the show for the walk-in guys, the guys who make shows viable from a promoter's point of view. yeah sure, the dealers like it, some far-off collector in BFE who can pay six bux for a nm- copy of The Wanderers 2 is happy, and the pottery dealers in southwestern CO are happy, but the dude who paid his 2 or 5 bux to take a look at stuff normally unavailble to him is thinking to himself "wtf is this garbage? where are all the good books?"

 

let the collectors come in and take first crack. if Chuck wants to drop by Sunday at 4 to clean out the tables for everyone else, then by all means

 

Are you serious? So what... every person who is on the floor before the show opens is a dealer and everyone who pays for a ticket is a collector? Come on. A dealer is going to turn down a chance to sell an inventory he/she no longer wants so little Jimmy can get his Freedom Fighters #3 in F+ for $1?

 

You should know that Chuck's purchases make almost no difference in the room before a show opens. Look at what happened at Heroes this year.

 

who is saying a dealer has to turn down anything? just move the dealer dealing to after the show rather than before...you know, like a certain instance i can remember...

 

That's a great advantage to the dealer, who can sell stuff they already know is sold. At bigger shows it doesn't work like that. You really think the dealers at Heroes were going to let that booth open up with that kind of inventory? I know that is a rare event. But really only an extreme example of why it will never happen.

 

People like Chuck don't spend travel $$$ to walk around friday and saturday just to make purchases on sunday.

 

Not to mention that some dealers bring stuff specifically to wholesale, but I guess that's not what your talking about.

 

no, stuff specifically to wholesale is fine. but i would love to see a one day show for fans and fans alone, and then dealers can trade the circle of chrap the day after.

 

i don't see the harm in keeping them separate.

 

i guess if i want to err on one side or the other as to who has first access to any books, i would say err on the side of the collectors.

 

and i wasn't referring to that feeding frenzy at Heroes. that dude was a once in a lifetime kind of thing

[sckao]

 

If it's any consolation, I usually am so disorganized at small one-day shows that I don't sell to ANYONE before the con starts. (or even after it starts.. as I am probably still setting up. ) Small one-day shows are usually only about 6-8 hours at most. It didn't happen to me at San Diego either... (Although Preview night was pretty busy.) The only people who approached our booth like that before the con opened was NeatStuff at WonderCon. (And that didn't happen either.)

 

I doubt people like Chuck frequent the small regional cons unless it's convenient or scheduled as part of a larger trip.

[The Troll King]

What will be interesting is to see the first show where the dealers have no one to sell to but each other because the collector/customer is either meeting a creator or 3rd rate hollywood star or not bothering to go to the event at all.

 

 

Guess you haven't been to the Dallas ComicCon/Scifi Expo/Hollywood Expo or whatever else Ben has been calling it in the past 10 years!

[jimm94]

I identify primarily as a collector in the hobby, but I have also dealt comics at shows for the past several years. Here are my comments from that perspective...

 

The average show attendee isn't NOT buying at shows because the selection is allegedly already picked over by other dealers before the doors open. They are spending time meeting creators, actors, etc... because they don't have a bunch of money to spend on back issues, and/or have other interests. Most guys show up with $100 or less to spend - Collectors with wads of $50's or $100 bills are the exception, not the rule. And face it, shows aren't just about comics and buying back issues anymore. Toys and other collectibles are incredibly popular these days, and are also competing for the collector's dollars.

 

Unless you are focused on collecting particularly difficult genres, or only want high grade slabs or something, the selection is outstanding at most shows. When people bemoan a show for "not having anything good", they usually neglect to add the phrase "for what I collect".

 

Dealers rely on buying from one another at shows because they need to constantly refresh their own inventories, and shop to fill want lists of loyal customers who are unable to attend. Not enough collections walk into stores, and buying here and there on eBay to flip isn't going to cut it. Pre-show commerce is also important to dealers because it helps boost their bottom line for the weekend. If you're spending several thousand dollars to exhibit at a two-day show, it's nice to recoup some of that investment early on in the show rather than hoping Mr. Money Bags Collector walks in and buys that AF 15 or whatever on the rack, or having to scramble around at the end wheeling and dealing for your wholesale purchases when everyone is ready to pack up and go home.

 

One last thing I'd add is that huge bulk purchases aren't all that common anyways. Most dealer to dealer transactions are for a handful of books to maybe a few boxes worth. And those types of books aren't always that heavily discounted. I have sold books at shows as a dealer to other dealers, and much of the time it was only at 15 or 20% off.

[The Troll King]

I identify primarily as a collector in the hobby, but I have also dealt comics at shows for the past several years. Here are my comments from that perspective...

 

The average show attendee isn't NOT buying at shows because the selection is allegedly already picked over by other dealers before the doors open. They are spending time meeting creators, actors, etc... because they don't have a bunch of money to spend on back issues, and/or have other interests. Most guys show up with $100 or less to spend - Collectors with wads of $50's or $100 bills are the exception, not the rule. And face it, shows aren't just about comics and buying back issues anymore. Toys and other collectibles are incredibly popular these days, and are also competing for the collector's dollars.

 

Unless you are focused on collecting particularly difficult genres, or only want high grade slabs or something, the selection is outstanding at most shows. When people bemoan a show for "not having anything good", they usually neglect to add the phrase "for what I collect".

 

Dealers rely on buying from one another at shows because they need to constantly refresh their own inventories, and shop to fill want lists of loyal customers who are unable to attend. Not enough collections walk into stores, and buying here and there on eBay to flip isn't going to cut it. Pre-show commerce is also important to dealers because it helps boost their bottom line for the weekend. If you're spending several thousand dollars to exhibit at a two-day show, it's nice to recoup some of that investment early on in the show rather than hoping Mr. Money Bags Collector walks in and buys that AF 15 or whatever on the rack, or having to scramble around at the end wheeling and dealing for your wholesale purchases when everyone is ready to pack up and go home.

 

One last thing I'd add is that huge bulk purchases aren't all that common anyways. Most dealer to dealer transactions are for a handful of books to maybe a few boxes worth. And those types of books aren't always that heavily discounted. I have sold books at shows as a dealer to other dealers, and much of the time it was only at 15 or 20% off.

 

 

Excellent post Jimm. I think you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I use to experience when I sold toys full time. The shows gave me an opportunity to make deals with other dealers from all over the country instead of only having to deal with stock that was running slim in my geographic area!

 

Good job!

[jimm94]

Thanks, Buffyfan. One thing that has always bugged me about the hobby is the giant chip some collectors have on their shoulder when it comes to dealers (and vice versa), so I'm happy to share my limited experiences on both sides of the table whenever I can. Participating in the hobby is something I do for enjoyment first and foremost, so I always try to approach it with a positive, professional attitude. Of course, people should be savvy, well-informed buyers and sellers, but I certainly don't subscribe to the "everyone is out to screw me" philosophy as my personal mantra.

[HouseofComics.Com]

Jim, it's always good to see you around the boards. I had sent a PM to divad earlier this month where I mentioned that the bay area forum members definitely seem to "get" what a dealer does and that they don't have that "chip on the shoulder." Maybe that's because just about all the locals have some selling experience.

 

Marc

[The Troll King]

Thanks, Buffyfan. One thing that has always bugged me about the hobby is the giant chip some collectors have on their shoulder when it comes to dealers (and vice versa), so I'm happy to share my limited experiences on both sides of the table whenever I can. Participating in the hobby is something I do for enjoyment first and foremost, so I always try to approach it with a positive, professional attitude. Of course, people should be savvy, well-informed buyers and sellers, but I certainly don't subscribe to the "everyone is out to screw me" philosophy as my personal mantra.

 

Well, any "hobby" is full of a bunch of pretentious complainers. I use the term "hobby" loosely because that refers to pretty much any group of people with a common interest.

 

My wife and I were just discussing this the other day and can't figure out why so many people have to act that way. It's always a bummer when you run into people like that too. I will admit that having met Chuck in person for the first time I found him to be extremely pleasant and down to earth, of course I'm sure I'll get for saying so.

[shadroch]

When I set up at a show,it is with the hopes and intentions of making money.

While I certainly would rather sell X amount of books for Y dollars,if anyone offered me Y dollars for X +Z amount,I'd certainly have to think long and hard on it.My first thoughts are to covering expenses and turning a profit.Pleasing the fans is not really a priority. I can understand a promoter having different priorities but money is money.Why should I turn down a sure thing in the hopes that I might sell it for more later.If Chuck wants my books at a price I agree with,am I really suppossed to take the fans into the equation?

[arexcrooke]

When I set up at a show,it is with the hopes and intentions of making money.

While I certainly would rather sell X amount of books for Y dollars,if anyone offered me Y dollars for X +Z amount,I'd certainly have to think long and hard on it.My first thoughts are to covering expenses and turning a profit.Pleasing the fans is not really a priority. I can understand a promoter having different priorities but money is money.Why should I turn down a sure thing in the hopes that I might sell it for more later.If Chuck wants my books at a price I agree with,am I really suppossed to take the fans into the equation?

[finecomics]

 

The average show attendee isn't NOT buying at shows because the selection is allegedly already picked over by other dealers before the doors open. They are spending time meeting creators, actors, etc... because they don't have a bunch of money to spend on back issues, and/or have other interests. Most guys show up with $100 or less to spend - Collectors with wads of $50's or $100 bills are the exception, not the rule. And face it, shows aren't just about comics and buying back issues anymore. Toys and other collectibles are incredibly popular these days, and are also competing for the collector's dollars.

 

I can buy that. But I think there's plenty of people in between "less than $100" and wads of franklins

Unless you are focused on collecting particularly difficult genres, or only want high grade slabs or something, the selection is outstanding at most shows. When people bemoan a show for "not having anything good", they usually neglect to add the phrase "for what I collect".

I agree 100% with this. You see it all the time all these boards.

Dealers rely on buying from one another at shows because they need to constantly refresh their own inventories, and shop to fill want lists of loyal customers who are unable to attend. Not enough collections walk into stores, and buying here and there on eBay to flip isn't going to cut it. Pre-show commerce is also important to dealers because it helps boost their bottom line for the weekend. If you're spending several thousand dollars to exhibit at a two-day show, it's nice to recoup some of that investment early on in the show rather than hoping Mr. Money Bags Collector walks in and buys that AF 15 or whatever on the rack, or having to scramble around at the end wheeling and dealing for your wholesale purchases when everyone is ready to pack up and go home.

Again well said. It could be 1 or all cirumstances. Most shows I've been to are not a flurry of activity before the doors open, but there is some dealing going on.

One last thing I'd add is that huge bulk purchases aren't all that common anyways. Most dealer to dealer transactions are for a handful of books to maybe a few boxes worth. And those types of books aren't always that heavily discounted. I have sold books at shows as a dealer to other dealers, and much of the time it was only at 15 or 20% off.

Bulk deals are definitely more common at larger shows. Its not just Chuck walking around writing checks.

 

My points (for what there worth)

- A show's inventory does not change significantly prior to the doors opening for most people's collecting needs

* I would be interested to hear collecting tastes of individuals who feel like that

 

- $25 to get in the door is expensive. These larger shows can cost up to $950 for 1 booth. So its a little capital out of dealer's pocket as well.

 

- I would be really interested to know a % of "collectors" that are walking around. I think a there's a high % of flippers walking around these shows. I wouldn't be surprised if that number was 25-35%. Even most dealers have a collection.

 

I've been tracking a slight downward trend in comics over $25 in atlanta, charlotte, and nashville and would be interested to see what's going on. Any other markets notice this trend

[finecomics]

It certainly isn't confined to Chuck, but all this pre-event selling and flipping is a huge turn-off to the average collector. Why bother showing up? Just buy on-line from the proven dealers and Ebay (if you so choose).

 

For the past couple of years, the only reason to go to a show is to get autographs or meet creators. Comics seem secondary to the events anymore, and you can't find what you want anyways.

 

This is an interesting point of view. But I still don't think the room is that different. How do you know what deals your missing out on?

 

I think as shows become more expensive dealers are moving prices up on inventory to cover.

 

It is a collector/customer point of view. Dealers and promoters are losing focus on the fact that WE are the ones they are there to sell to FIRST. What will be interesting is to see the first show where the dealers have no one to sell to but each other because the collector/customer is either meeting a creator or 3rd rate hollywood star or not bothering to go to the event at all.

 

The Motor City Con here in Detroit costs $20 at the door, plus another $5 to park. $25 to get in the door and look through picked over *spoon*? No thanks.

 

I've never been to Motor City Con, but know its a "larger" show. What kind of stuff were you looking for?

[JuliusSeizure]

I think that a comic book dealer, as with any middleman, needs to add value to a transaction to earn his percentage. Dealers add value in a number of ways, including convenience (I can go to Chuck's website and find that FF #40 I need without having to knock on my neighbors' doors and ask if they happen to have kept one for 40 years), grading (saves me having to check every corner and edge), and restoration check on high-end items. They provide a market and have a right to earn a good living this way.

 

What turns some people off are the kickbacks and you-scratch-my-back-I'll scratch-yours transactions that result in the middleman getting a cut out of proportion to the value he adds to the transaction. I don't want to the price of a book I buy to reflect three markups for three different dealers whose hands this thing has passed through. I could have bought it from the first guy, and both of us would have been quite happy.

 

I think (and this was the original point) that with eBay, this marketplace, and other collector-to-collector outlets that weren't available before, it's harder to justify at least more than one middleman. In 1990, maybe that VG/F X-Men #11 I'm after is owned by someone on the West Coast, and it does take a few stops to get it to me. But these days, it's easier to buy it from the original owner, or a comic shop in LA 3000 miles away. So there's less tolerance for someone like Chuck harvesting before a show, because he's not making a book more available to a buyer than would otherwise be the case -- he's just making it cost more.

 

IMO, comic book dealers need to take a close look at their business models and find out where the value is. No one has a divine right to easy profit. Saying, "I as a dealer need to be able to buy/sell in backroom deals before the show to make back my costs of setup", expecting paying customers to forego lower prices for dealers' sake, is no different from expecting a dealer to turn down sales to Chuck and friends, "for the fans' sake".

 

In the end, I suppose if it's a big deal, the market will take care of this by pricing out smaller-time collectors and making cons less desirable as avenues of back-issue purchasing.

[langur88]

If Chuck wants my books at a price I agree with, am I really suppossed to take the fans into the equation?

 

[langur88]

 

What turns some people off are the kickbacks and you-scratch-my-back-I'll scratch-yours transactions that result in the middleman getting a cut out of proportion to the value he adds to the transaction.

 

No one has a divine right to easy profit.

 

In the end, I suppose if it's a big deal, the market will take care of this by pricing out smaller-time collectors and making cons less desirable as avenues of back-issue purchasing.

 

[drice6900]

Chuck said in today's newsletter:

 

"So, was it all worth it (the travel)? Oh, heck yes! As per always, Roger Price put on a wonderful convention in Columbus, and I was able to purchase over 20,000 Silver Age and Bronze Age comics at the show. Several dealers had large groupings of old books waiting for us before we even got to Mid-Ohio-Con, so making great deals was pretty easy to accomplish. In fact, thanks to all the wonderful buying that we did at Wizard-Dallas, New York, and Mid-Ohio-Con, we now have over 100,000 great back issues to grade and enter into our online inventory. That backlog should only last us about 60 days, but that intervening time gives me plenty of opportunity to rest and recover from this most recent epic trip. Suffice it to say, I think that I will really appreciate staying here at our farm for a while. I'm so weary this morning that life seems very blurry around the edges of my vision, which is not a good sign... "

[Pirate]

I saw chuck at one point sunday loading up 14 long boxes on a dolly. I chatted with him a second on Sunday morning and he was having a good show.

[dudeman5000]

Thanks Dave for starting this post. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through it. I too found Chuck to be pleasant and he spoke with me for about 10 minutes at this year's HeroesCon and told me the story of how he went to somebody's place in Iowa (?) to look through a freezing cold garage to look at books that were "not as described" (moderns vs silver age stuff I believe). He was doing a lot of buying and the dealers seemed pretty happy at that. I do not buy unslabbed books from MH as the grades are always off, but I have grabbed some great deals on CGC'd books during "super discount" sales. Customer service is always top notch and the folks I have dealt with were always friendly. That makes for good business. When I travel to a Con, I do spend a lot of money and do not waste my time digging through the mountain of .25-1.00 books. But I am glad for that dealer that folks are buying by the armload. I love going by Harley Yee's and looking at books I have only seen in the Overstreet Price Guide ( there is comic history in his displays!), I love buying OA and commission pieces, and I love the hustle and bustle of folks BUYING comic books. As much as I love buying, I do think of that poor soul who has to load up his 20+ longboxes on stuff that doesn't sell. Happy Holidays all!

 

Chris