Oh Come on Ebay, DO SOMETHING ALREADY! Plus Vital Paypal Info

[Dave_Hennen]

Better to have the money unavailable and sort it out later.

 

If the funds were unavailable from either my paypal balance or I was fortunate to have transfered the funds to my bank and had time to clear the transfer and pull the cash out of my bank would Paypal be able to charge my credit card for the disputed amount?

 

Also I have an overdraft protection on my account which would allow paypal to scoop the money even if the account were at a zero balance, I hadn't considered the possible downside until now. I do use a seperate account from my day to day checking at a different bank even. But I sometimes (not often) use the overdraft protection to float a purchase until payday, so I wouldn't want to get rid of it.

 

This is going to take some thought on how to better protect myself

 

dave h

 

 

[lighthouse]

Dave...

 

Take my advice and set up a separate account, so you have one for buying and one for selling. That way you don't have as big a concern if they come looking for money...

 

And yes, they will pull money from ANY source that is tied to your account. Bank account or credit card. Anything they can get money from, they will...

[BronzeBruce13]

Better to have the money unavailable and sort it out later.

 

If the funds were unavailable from either my paypal balance or I was fortunate to have transfered the funds to my bank and had time to clear the transfer and pull the cash out of my bank would Paypal be able to charge my credit card for the disputed amount?

 

Also I have an overdraft protection on my account which would allow paypal to scoop the money even if the account were at a zero balance, I hadn't considered the possible downside until now. I do use a seperate account from my day to day checking at a different bank even. But I sometimes (not often) use the overdraft protection to float a purchase until payday, so I wouldn't want to get rid of it.

 

This is going to take some thought on how to better protect myself

dave h

 

I never used overdraft protection. If my account is at zero.. nothing's coming out?

Good point though... another serious detail to make sure about when you set out to cover yourself.

 

If there's nothing in your bank account and they charge your credit card... that's simple... do a chargeback against them. You'll probably have your paypal account terminated, but better that... than a ton of cash. I would think even though you agreed to let them charge your CC (just like having access to your connected bank account) when accepting the user agreement... there still must be an option to contest the charge, especially if you did what they required of you as a seller and then PP ruled against you unfairly or with a "grey zone" grab. Your CC works for you, not Paypal. BUT i wonder what happens if you have a Paypal CC??? I don't like my chances there.

 

[lighthouse]

If there's nothing in your bank account and they charge your credit card... that's simple... do a chargeback against them. You'll probably have your paypal account terminated, but better that... than a ton of cash. I would think even though you agreed to let them charge your CC (just like having access to your connected bank account) when accepting the user agreement... there still must be an option to contest the charge, especially if you did what they required of you as a seller and then PP ruled against you unfairly or with a "grey zone" grab. Your CC works for you, not Paypal. BUT i wonder what happens if you have a Paypal CC??? I don't like my chances there.

 

PayPal doesn't own the credit cards, they just license their name to Providian. eBay doesn't have a controlling interest in Providian (which trades as PVN), so they have no involvement in any chargeback scenarios.

 

PayPal debit cards are owned by PayPal. But the PayPal credit cards are not...

 

The real scare down the road is the possibility that eBay will choose to NARU people whose PayPal accounts get closed for chargebacks. The two are linked more and more everyday, and it's a logical step for them. We may see a change soon that has them cancelling eBay id's that are connected to force-closed PayPal accounts. So then you have to decide whether to give them their blood money or lose your hard-earned eBay feedback...

 

I haven't brought that up before, for fear that speaking the words would bring it to pass... but based on the past history of the company, I'd say it's a safe bet...

[BronzeBruce13]

Dave...

 

Take my advice and set up a separate account, so you have one for buying and one for selling. That way you don't have as big a concern if they come looking for money...

 

And yes, they will pull money from ANY source that is tied to your account. Bank account or credit card. Anything they can get money from, they will...

 

'house..it sounds like you and I did a whole lot of research on this.

 

Did you ever get your $400+ back? if not, what's the status?

 

I have a both personal and premiere account, although I don't use either exclusively for buying or selling. I use the account that makes sense at the time... depending on the situation. A personal account does not accept or require a CC. So my exposure is limited if my bank account is empty. I withdraw funds and transfer out of my personal acct. before shipping with new customers/big dollar shipments.

 

With my premiere acct., when I have to accept funds with a CC. I transfer the funds to my personal account (no charge to do this), then withdraw, then filter out to a non connected account. So even a chargeback wont get the funds directly from me. Paypal will be on the hook and it would have to be investigated. The may say I have a neg. balance, but try getting it from me if I did everything right. I don't think they'd vigorously pursue me if all my "I's" were dotted so to speak. No opportunity for as "gray zone grab"... go get it from the fraudulent buyer Paypal (might want to deny his reversal request now since you can't get my money and I have a signature, etc.).. buh bye now Paypal.

 

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

The real scare down the road is the possibility that eBay will choose to NARU people whose PayPal accounts get closed for chargebacks. The two are linked more and more everyday, and it's a logical step for them. We may see a change soon that has them cancelling eBay id's that are connected to force-closed PayPal accounts. So then you have to decide whether to give them their blood money or lose your hard-earned eBay feedback...

 

I haven't brought that up before, for fear that speaking the words would bring it to pass... but based on the past history of the company, I'd say it's a safe bet...

 

'house, if you look at the thread that came out when Ebay was rumored to be buying Paypal... I brought that exact same concern up... and the some.

 

I suggested/was fearful that it may be possible for Ebay to use leverage against you concerning your standing with your Paypal account. For instance, if you successfully chargedbacked against a seller that covered his [!@#%^&^] and Paypal could not get the money from him.. they could freeze either or both Ebay accounts until they got the money from somone/somewhere.

 

If we ever see the user agreement change where they ever connect your standing in one compay with your standing in another... watch out! Sellers that rely on Ebay will have no option but to comply. Buyers will have to get another account.. BUT if they want to, they can locate and eliminate extra accounts. There will be many new creative end-arounds if this ever happens. I've already considered a couple solutions.

 

 

[fantastic_four]

The real scare down the road is the possibility that eBay will choose to NARU people whose PayPal accounts get closed for chargebacks. The two are linked more and more everyday, and it's a logical step for them. We may see a change soon that has them cancelling eBay id's that are connected to force-closed PayPal accounts. So then you have to decide whether to give them their blood money or lose your hard-earned eBay feedback...

 

I haven't brought that up before, for fear that speaking the words would bring it to pass... but based on the past history of the company, I'd say it's a safe bet...

 

If they do that, then anytime anybody wants to screw somebody over, just win one or more of their auctions, pay with PayPal, and do a chargeback. Seller is perma-hosed with no recourse.

 

I smell future lawsuits; this whole PayPal chargeback thing is just [!@#%^&^] up beyond all recognition. Now I'm starting to figure out why the major credit card companies haven't gotten into this consumer to consumer business yet.

[lighthouse]

'house..it sounds like you and I did a whole lot of research on this.

 

Did you ever get your $400+ back? if not, what's the status?

 

If someone provides me with enough incentive, I will take the time necessary to find out exacty what all the rules of the game are... and which ones can be used against me. I probably know more about how PayPal can screw me than PayPal does, and I know plenty of ways to screw them...

 

And no, I didn't get the $465 back... I chalked it up as a learning experience, wrote it off on my taxes, and took the necessary steps to make sure they can't do it again...

[lighthouse]

The hope is that regulation will arrive in time...

 

Just like Vegas had to clean up its act to keep getting those happy family dollars, the hope is that eBay-PayPal will be forced to conform to more sensible rules.

 

The number of lawsuits pending is ridiculous... we just have to hope that they result in a "kindler, gentler" PayPal...

 

And as a reminder... I still use PayPal... in fact it's the only method I am accepting in my current listings in the marketplace forums. And I have already taken payments from folks I could not recover any money from (since their Canadian addresses aren't verified)... But I will participate in every one of these threads if it helps even a couple people avoid getting screwed by PayPal...

[chromium]

This paypal situation is getting scarier each month

 

So if I understand correctly ;

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bankaccount... paypal can take the money from your account

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bank-account which you keep at a minimum, you're still screwed as paypal uses your overdraft and drives into debt with your bank

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bank-account which you keep at a minimum with no overdraft, well you're still screwed as paypal will use your credit card to make a charge-back

 

- You have a premium account not linked to a bank-account, screwed again as paypal will use your credit card to make a charge-back

 

 

- You have a personal account (free) paypal can't charge back any money, but you're still screwed as you can't accept credit card payments...

 

help.....

[BronzeBruce13]

The hope is that regulation will arrive in time...

 

Just like Vegas had to clean up its act to keep getting those happy family dollars, the hope is that eBay-PayPal will be forced to conform to more sensible rules.

 

The number of lawsuits pending is ridiculous... we just have to hope that they result in a "kindler, gentler" PayPal...

 

And as a reminder... I still use PayPal... in fact it's the only method I am accepting in my current listings in the marketplace forums. And I have already taken payments from folks I could not recover any money from (since their Canadian addresses aren't verified)... But I will participate in every one of these threads if it helps even a couple people avoid getting screwed by PayPal...

 

 

Me too... I'll keep beating the drum to cover your arse. You seemed to be doing fine without me on the last thread you provided a link to, but I'm with you... people need to know how to cover themselves.

 

Protecting yourself and making the funds unavailable for the "Paypal Grab" is how you screw over Paypal. The other way is mostly done by fraudulent buyer scams like was mentioned in this thread. If CMK did not have any monies available.. Paypal would have taken it up the arse and lost on the buyer's scam... which is why there probably was that "gray zone grab". I'm sure it happens much more when they are the ones about to kiss $$$ goodbye.

[fantastic_four]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

Do they really not do chargebacks on personal accounts?

[BronzeBruce13]

This paypal situation is getting scarier each month

 

So if I understand correctly ;

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bankaccount... paypal can take the money from your account

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bank-account which you keep at a minimum, you're still screwed as paypal uses your overdraft and drives into debt with your bank

 

- You have a premium account linked to a bank-account which you keep at a minimum with no overdraft, well you're still screwed as paypal will use your credit card to make a charge-back

 

- You have a premium account not linked to a bank-account, screwed again as paypal will use your credit card to make a charge-back

 

- You have a personal account (free) paypal can't charge back any money, but you're still screwed as you can't accept credit card payments...

help.....

 

 

a "premiere account" or "business account"

 

Yes.. they have all those options if you signed up after Oct 11, 2001. However, I think you missed some of it. Check your account and make sure you don't have this "Overdraft Protection". I don't believe I do, but I'll be checking Saturday.

 

Also... if they do charge your CC... I believe you can reverse that with a chargeback against PP. That sounds like a move PP'll do because a percentage won't realize they can chargeback a "paypal grab" against their credit card.. and will accept/pay it. Your CC works for you, not PP.. or PP would not be taking these steps in the first place.

[lighthouse]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

The way the procedure goes is this...

 

PayPal decides they want your money.

They send an ACH debit through to your bank account.

It's up to your bank whether they pay it, the same as it is if you write a check for more money than you have.

If you are a good customer at the bank (even if you don't have overdraft protection set up), the bank probably pays it and leaves you with a negative balance.

 

Thank you... and drive through...

[BronzeBruce13]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

Do they really not do chargebacks on personal accounts?

 

I'm going to look into this tomorrow. I think that's only an option IF you have that feature (overdraft protection) connected with your account. I don't think that's a given for every account.

 

As far as a personal account... they can't do a chargeback, because that implies a CC charge reversal. They CAN grab Paypal Balance or Bank Funds if they decide you are responsible, and rule in favor of a buyer asking for a reversal for an accepted reason. BUT if you have no cash in PP balance, or in the PP connected bank account... methinks they get back to the buyer and say "sorry, we've ruled in the sellers favor" or "we can't get your $$$". This is an assumption on my part based on what I do know.. .I've never run into this specific scenario.

 

Point is.. "move the shell" and never give them access to the cash and let's see how they handle the problem (if you did what you were supposed to). If you did not follow the guidelines, then you may be in for more of a fight.

 

Even with your CC, to do a chargeback, you do have to show/prove that you took the necessary precautions, your CC won't chargeback for any old reason.

 

 

 

 

 

[nesta]

I recently signed up for paypal so I'm much lower on the knowledge curve than most of you, but there is a tedious method for those of you who do low volume, high $ transactions... Don't give any bank account # and withdraw your funds via check. There is a long lag time, and $1.50 fee.... but I would rather deal with that than having to worry about a completely unresponsive company raiding my checking account at any moment with no recourse. Given these stories and others, I will never allow them to have access to my bank account #'s.

 

Nesta

[BronzeBruce13]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

The way the procedure goes is this...

 

PayPal decides they want your money.

They send an ACH debit through to your bank account.

It's up to your bank whether they pay it, the same as it is if you write a check for more money than you have.

If you are a good customer at the bank (even if you don't have overdraft protection set up), the bank probably pays it and leaves you with a negative balance.

 

Thank you... and drive through...

 

If this is the case, (and I am a good customer with several accounts that can cover most anything I'd encounter).. I'll specifically ask that there be "NO Overdraft Consideration" and specifically warn my bank NOT to honor any Paypal requests for funds if there is no money in the account. I'll take my lumps with a potential bounce... which you can politely get most banks to waive several times a year anyway, if you have enough cash in the bank.

 

BTW: I used this technique with my Wife before I knew better, when she bounced a check or two... (having money in the bank is all the leverage you really need, to have insufficient fund fees waived. Not every bank will allow one account to directly cover another, so you point out you have plenty of cash in the bank... "please waive it". )

 

... Anyway... She'd call the bank saying her husband was angry as hell and talking about taking all our money out of the bank (while I curse in the background and bang pots and pans ... worked ever time before I just used the above. I think the customer service reps were fearful I'd "brain" my wife if they didn't waive the fees.

[lighthouse]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

Do they really not do chargebacks on personal accounts?

 

I'm going to look into this tomorrow. I think that's only an option IF you have that feature (overdraft protection) connected with your account. I don't think that's a given for every account.

 

Bruce, I realize you probably don't have much experience with overdrawn checking accounts, but I have a store full of teenaged employees and can relate more than an anecdote or two.

 

"Overdraft Protection" isn't about making sure your checks get paid. It's about you not getting charged $25 per check for them to do so. Any bank in the country will overdraw your account and pay your check as a matter of course. They'll do it a dozen times for poor college students and they'll be even happier to do it for you (because they know you're good for it and they make the $25 fee for nothing).

 

Trust me... Anyone here can go write a check right now for $50 more than what's in their account and their bank will pay the check without question. You'll get a notice in the mail, and you'll owe them a $25 fee. But they will absolutely pay the check.

[BronzeBruce13]

I recently signed up for paypal so I'm much lower on the knowledge curve than most of you, but there is a tedious method for those of you who do low volume, high $ transactions... Don't give any bank account # and withdraw your funds via check. There is a long lag time, and $1.50 fee.... but I would rather deal with that than having to worry about a completely unresponsive company raiding my checking account at any moment with no recourse. Given these stories and others, I will never allow them to have access to my bank account #'s.

 

Nesta

 

 

As far as I know, you can't verify/activate any PP account without a bank account... that won't work?

[BronzeBruce13]

What about this overdraft bullcrap? Can they really do that? If so, there's NOTHING you can do except never get a premium account.

 

Do they really not do chargebacks on personal accounts?

 

I'm going to look into this tomorrow. I think that's only an option IF you have that feature (overdraft protection) connected with your account. I don't think that's a given for every account.

 

Bruce, I realize you probably don't have much experience with overdrawn checking accounts, but I have a store full of teenaged employees and can relate more than an anecdote or two.

 

"Overdraft Protection" isn't about making sure your checks get paid. It's about you not getting charged $25 per check for them to do so. Any bank in the country will overdraw your account and pay your check as a matter of course. They'll do it a dozen times for poor college students and they'll be even happier to do it for you (because they know you're good for it and they make the $25 fee for nothing).

 

Trust me... Anyone here can go write a check right now for $50 more than what's in their account and their bank will pay the check without question. You'll get a notice in the mail, and you'll owe them a $25 fee. But they will absolutely pay the check.

 

 

I'll have to look into this 'house... is there a limit to how far they'll go? I have to wonder if my bank would do it anyway, seeing how I had every attempt to charge my accounts an overdraft fee waived (one way or another) . I'm going to find out if I can make a specific request for them not to do this with my Paypal linked account. I'm glad you guys brought this up. As safe as I thought I was, with all the research and angles i thought I had covered.. I may have had my arse vulnerable anyway.