What to do?

[seank]

I received my latest Heritage winnings last night. One of the books has undisclosed water damage on the back cover. Given the water damage, the book is also not a FN/VF as advertised. (Without the water damage, the book is easily a FN/VF.)

 

But there's a catch. The book is also a Davis Crippen pedigree Jumbo Comics 139. In essence, it's unique.

 

So:

 

Do I contact Heritage about returning the book and getting my purchase price back due to undisclosed water damage, or

 

Do I keep the book because it's a pedigree?

[thirdgreenham]

Perhaps you can contact them and explain the situation. Mention that you're disappointed that they didn't disclose this vital information. Mention that you're not really interested in returning the book, but would like some kind of adjustment to the price paid for it. Ah, they probably wouldn't do that, though. I'm sure most big businesses would just like to get the book back to resell it again, rather than give out partial refunds. But I guess it doesn't hurt to ask....

 

 

Andy

[GACollectibles]

Perhaps you can contact them and explain the situation. Mention that you're disappointed that they didn't disclose this vital information. Mention that you're not really interested in returning the book, but would like some kind of adjustment to the price paid for it. Ah, they probably wouldn't do that, though. I'm sure most big businesses would just like to get the book back to resell it again, rather than give out partial refunds. But I guess it doesn't hurt to ask....

 

 

Andy

 

The other problem may be that I think Heritage has a no return policy on those books for grade/pedigree issues, but this sounds like a valid issue. Good luck on whatever you choose.

[drbanner]

I believe Nochips recently received a refund on a raw book purchased from Heritage, even though their published return policy states no returns.

 

What do you grade the book at now? It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do...

[whomerjay]

It would send it back. There's no excuse for not grading the book properly with such a glaring defect. If you don't send it back, you are condoning the practice of purposefully overgrading a book think that they'll get away with because it's a pedigree, it's unique, their policy makes it hard to return, etc. Unless people start calling them out, they won't change, and people will continue to get hosed.

[whomerjay]

I believe Nochips recently received a refund on a raw book purchased from Heritage, even though their published return policy states no returns.

 

What do you grade the book at now? It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do...

 

Books with water damage are not F/VF ever . I'm absolutely sure your statement "It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do" is correct however, because their grading sucks as a matter of either: 1) policy; or 2) ineptness.

[lizards2]

I believe Nochips recently received a refund on a raw book purchased from Heritage, even though their published return policy states no returns.

 

What do you grade the book at now? It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do...

 

I've only had one deal with Heritage, and this case sounds pretty much the same. My guess is that the water damage is already assessed in the grade, using whatever grading system it is that they use.

[Red Hook]

I'm not so familar with GA production characteristics, but that seems to be one crraaaaaazy upper right edge. Also, does Heritage not show scans of back covers? I noticed there was none with the auction for this particular book. Seeing as you paid under $100 for this.....I might actually just hold onto it.

 

[TiQuinn]

Eeek....

 

Personally, pedigree or not, I expect the book to match the grade and I don't think water damage falls into a FN/VF. Grade and look trumps pedigree for me. But if you feel you still paid a fair price for it, you may want to keep it.

[drbanner]

Books with water damage are not F/VF ever.

Really? What makes you say that? What if an otherwise NM book has a 1 mm water stain on an interior page? Regardless of the type of defect, the effect on grade depends on the magnitude of that defect I believe.

 

I'm absolutely sure your statement "It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do" is correct however, because their grading sucks as a matter of either: 1) policy; or 2) ineptness.

I've been pretty happy with some raw book purchases from Heritage, and in one case, "pretty happy" is the understatement of the year.

 

However, like CGC's, mine, Metropolis', and everyone else, they are likely to have overgraded some books, and undergraded others. I looked at the scan of this book and agree with seank that the books "is easily a FN/VF" without the defect (aka, if it didn't have the water damage, the book appears undergraded).

[whomerjay]

Books with water damage are not F/VF ever.

Really? What makes you say that? What if an otherwise NM book has a 1 mm water stain on an interior page? Regardless of the type of defect, the effect on grade depends on the magnitude of that defect I believe.

 

You're smarter than to roll out that kind of argument. Besides, you know he was talking about water damage on the cover. And enough for him to be concerned.

 

I'm absolutely sure your statement "It's possible that Heritage simply did not downgrade as much for the water damage as you do" is correct however, because their grading sucks as a matter of either: 1) policy; or 2) ineptness.]

[i've been pretty happy with some raw book purchases from Heritage, and in one case, "pretty happy" is the understatement of the year.

 

Too many examples posted here of gross overgrading of books received, usually with defects incredibly obvious whne book is in hand but not obvious from the scans provided. This is smacks of purposeful deception but regardless of the reason, is unacceptable for an big time auction house. We're not talking teh weekend ebay seller here, we're talking about a major mover of tough, expensive books. The standards should be higher.

 

I looked at the scan of this book and agree with seank that the books "is easily a FN/VF" without the defect (aka, if it didn't have the water damage, the book appears undergraded).

 

But it has the defect and it's not an F/VF. What it is without the defect is irrelevant.

[october]

Books with water damage are not F/VF ever .

 

That's not true. I have owned two slabbed books with water damage. One had a 1.5" by 1.5" water spot on the interior front cover and the book got an 8.0, and the other had a 1" stain on the spine and got a 7.0. There are very few types of damage that automatically drop a book below a specified grade...and staining is not one of them.

[whomerjay]

I will (and already did) concede the point that there is some minimal level of water damage that allows for a higher grade.

 

Yet I am curious if you would have given a raw book with 1" stain on the spine a 7.0 before the revelation that CGC would.

[drbanner]

Too many examples posted here of gross overgrading of books received, usually with defects incredibly obvious whne book is in hand but not obvious from the scans provided. This is smacks of purposeful deception but regardless of the reason, is unacceptable for an big time auction house.

 

Not many buyers discuss who they buy their sweet, undergraded books from...but I can assure you that with Heritage selling thousands of books a month, they do have some of those.

[october]

I will (and already did) concede the point that there is some minimal level of water damage that allows for a higher grade.

 

You conceded that a 1mm interior water spot allowed for a higher grade. I gave an example of a 1.5" by 1.5" water spot on the cover. Not exactly the same thing and I wouldn't call the latter "minimal" at all.

 

Yet I am curious if you would have given a raw book with 1" stain on the spine a 7.0 before the revelation that CGC would.

 

I would have given it a 7.5 actually. The rest of the book looks great.

 

[october]

Too many examples posted here of gross overgrading of books received, usually with defects incredibly obvious whne book is in hand but not obvious from the scans provided. This is smacks of purposeful deception but regardless of the reason, is unacceptable for an big time auction house.

 

Not many buyers discuss who they buy their sweet, undergraded books from...but I can assure you that with Heritage selling thousands of books a month, they do have some of those.

 

Absolutely. Ask about overgraders and you will get the phonebook, ask about undergraders and hear crickets chirp. They are out there (in higher numbers than most people realize) but nobody is going to give out a free lunch.

[seank]

I'm going to post a scan of the Jumbo 139 back cover later today if the scan shows the extent of the damage. We're not talking about a small 1" stain on this book, we're talking about a significant portion of the back cover along with a damp odor.

 

As Red Hook pointed out, I paid less than $100 for the book. $60 actually. OS in 6.0 is $54. Is the overall cost and hassle of returning the book worthwhile?

[october]

I'm going to post a scan of the Jumbo 139 back cover later today if the scan shows the extent of the damage. We're not talking about a small 1" stain on this book, we're talking about a significant portion of the back cover along with a damp odor.

 

As Red Hook pointed out, I paid less than $100 for the book. $60 actually. OS in 6.0 is $54. Is the overall cost and hassle of returning the book worthwhile?

 

Ok, half the cover is definitely different. If the rest of the book looks nice I would probably say keep it. The hassle probably just isn't worth it. Then again, it always sucks to let someone get away with overgrading.

[whomerjay]

I will (and already did) concede the point that there is some minimal level of water damage that allows for a higher grade.

 

You conceded that a 1mm interior water spot allowed for a higher grade. I gave an example of a 1.5" by 1.5" water spot on the cover. Not exactly the same thing and I wouldn't call the latter "minimal" at all.

 

Yet I am curious if you would have given a raw book with 1" stain on the spine a 7.0 before the revelation that CGC would.

 

I would have given it a 7.5 actually. The rest of the book looks great.

 

Well, this is probably the root of our disagreement. I think water damage is a major flaw, bad by its very nature, and yes a 1.5" by 1.5" water spot on the cover is not minimal (we agree) and would make the book VG+ at best IMO (we don't agree).

 

I can't see your book with a 1" stain on the spine, but again such a flaw would not permit such a grade in my book.

 

My opinion of weighting water damage so heavily stems from my own personal aesthetics (which I am sure differs from many others') and my experience in selling books with various forms of water damage (they must be heavily discounted).

[whomerjay]

Too many examples posted here of gross overgrading of books received, usually with defects incredibly obvious whne book is in hand but not obvious from the scans provided. This is smacks of purposeful deception but regardless of the reason, is unacceptable for an big time auction house.

 

Not many buyers discuss who they buy their sweet, undergraded books from...but I can assure you that with Heritage selling thousands of books a month, they do have some of those.

 

Absolutely. Ask about overgraders and you will get the phonebook, ask about undergraders and hear crickets chirp. They are out there (in higher numbers than most people realize) but nobody is going to give out a free lunch.

 

Not sure of your point here. Are you two on board as characterizing Heritage as undergraders? (I thought any book Heritage felt was undergraded or had not yet reached "full potential" could not be bought by an outsider).

 

Or is it more hit and miss with them? If you are arguing that careful consideration of Heritage listings will enable you to find undergraded books and avoid overgraded books, to me that is a dangerous game with them.