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CGC policy confusion, ethics

Started by spoonerism,

24 posts in this topic

spoonerism

spoonerism

Posted
Posted

Hi, everyone!

 

Recently I've been spending my retirement money buying lower-grade but restorable Golden Age comics. I'm working with probably one of the top 3 best known restoration artists, and trust her judgement about all things restoration, but she isn't a comic collector, so she isn't exactly on the same page as me.

 

On CGC's FAQ page, they specifically say that cleaning and pressing of comics would not be considered restoration. It seems they draw the line at additive procedures.

 

She disagrees, and won't do simple cleaning and pressings for that reason. (I'm thinking of learning how to do this myself. I would of course reveal that the book had been cleaned and/or pressed when selling one.)

 

There's a seems to be a double standard at work, as well. While tape that is amateur will get you dinged on condition, properly applied conservation tape will make the book "restored."

 

Removing tape is classifed as non-additive, according to the FAQ, and therefore not restoration. However, what about removing someone's extra staples?

 

I'd prefer doing away with the purple label in favor of a descriptive page that could be added to the display case somehow. The letter may include information such as sales history, restoration attempts, provenance and pedigree, et cetera.

 

Between the restoration grey areas and CGCs unpublished guidelines, the only way to know how something will grade is to buy yer ticket and take yer ride.

 

For example, I recently purchased a World's Best (Finest) Comics #1. It is BEAUTIFUL except for five neatly punched holes in the top of the covr (non-artwork-affecting) and the fact that, like most glue-bound comics that are more than 60 years old, its cover is detached.

 

If I knew how they were going to grade it, I could make a decision now about whether to make the restoration. For example, it could be considered an 8.0, with a note about the hole punches; or it could be considered a 6.5.

 

Without strict published guidelines, grading is an art rather than a science. And if I am going to pay an artist to work on my comic, I'd rather pay someone I know a couple hundred dollars to make sure the book will last for my grandchildren to see than to pay some secretive company a percentage of the book's worth so they can stick it in a case where I'll never get to read it again.

 

(This is, of course, an extreme stance. I don't really feel this way. I appreciate the place CGC has in the comics marketplace.)

 

If anyone is still reading, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. smile.gif

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spoonerism

spoonerism

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Also, Here's a blog post I wrote about my experience with getting my first book restored:

 

http://welborn.blogspot.com/2006/09/conservation-and-restoration.html

 

The book is being worked on now, and I haven't written anything on it since, but there are some good resto links in there, as well as two related links I found interestiing:

 

An X-Men #1 Susan restored (before & after):

http://www.therestorationlab.com/photo_detail.php?image_id=11&page=1

 

The owner's story on a board at comicspriceguide.com:

http://www.comicspriceguide.com/forum2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30619

 

--James

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
Hi, everyone!

 

Recently I've been spending my retirement money buying lower-grade but restorable Golden Age comics. I'm working with probably one of the top 3 best known restoration artists, and trust her judgement about all things restoration, but she isn't a comic collector, so she isn't exactly on the same page as me.

 

On CGC's FAQ page, they specifically say that cleaning and pressing of comics would not be considered restoration. It seems they draw the line at additive procedures.

 

If you "wet clean" the book (with solvent or aqueous solution), CGC considers it restoration. If you "dry clean" the book (using an eraser to remove surface grime), CGC does not consider it restoration.

 

She disagrees, and won't do simple cleaning and pressings for that reason. (I'm thinking of learning how to do this myself. I would of course reveal that the book had been cleaned and/or pressed when selling one.)

 

You could learn how to do it yourself or you could send it to Matt Nelson at classic conservations (www.comicrestoration.com). You're better off sending it to a professional so that you don't damage your books during your experiments.

 

There's a seems to be a double standard at work, as well. While tape that is amateur will get you dinged on condition, properly applied conservation tape will make the book "restored."

 

I don't know if archival tape will be considered "restoration." It might just get a "tape" notation in a blue label. You should call and ask about this.

 

Removing tape is classifed as non-additive, according to the FAQ, and therefore not restoration. However, what about removing someone's extra staples?

 

Removing tape is only non-additive if you don't use a solvent. If you use solvent to remove the tape, you will get a purple label.

 

If you just use heat and mechanical means (such as a heated microspatula) to scrape away the carrier and as much residue as you can remove, it won't be considered restoration by CGC -- but the remaining adhesive is just as dangerous to the paper as it was when the plastic tape carrier was still there. I believe that you can remove extra staples (non-original staples) without getting a purple label.

 

I'd prefer doing away with the purple label in favor of a descriptive page that could be added to the display case somehow. The letter may include information such as sales history, restoration attempts, provenance and pedigree, et cetera.

 

Me too.

 

Between the restoration grey areas and CGCs unpublished guidelines, the only way to know how something will grade is to buy yer ticket and take yer ride.

 

For example, I recently purchased a World's Best (Finest) Comics #1. It is BEAUTIFUL except for five neatly punched holes in the top of the covr (non-artwork-affecting) and the fact that, like most glue-bound comics that are more than 60 years old, its cover is detached.

 

If I knew how they were going to grade it, I could make a decision now about whether to make the restoration. For example, it could be considered an 8.0, with a note about the hole punches; or it could be considered a 6.5.

 

With the hole punches and detached cover, it will grade much lower than 6.5. If you reattach the cover with glue, it'll get a restored label around the 5.0 level due to the holes.

 

Without strict published guidelines, grading is an art rather than a science.

 

news.gif Even WITH published guidelines (i.e., the Overstreet Grading Guide in its various iterations), it is STILL an art rather than a science. news.gif And I do not believe it is possible to publish a set of grading standards that does not leave ambiguity all over the place.

 

And if I am going to pay an artist to work on my comic, I'd rather pay someone I know a couple hundred dollars to make sure the book will last for my grandchildren to see than to pay some secretive company a percentage of the book's worth so they can stick it in a case where I'll never get to read it again.

 

(This is, of course, an extreme stance. I don't really feel this way. I appreciate the place CGC has in the comics marketplace.)

 

If anyone is still reading, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. smile.gif

 

And now you have them! acclaim.gif

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benz

benz

Posted
Posted
Also, Here's a blog post I wrote about my experience with getting my first book restored:

 

http://welborn.blogspot.com/2006/09/conservation-and-restoration.html

 

The book is being worked on now, and I haven't written anything on it since, but there are some good resto links in there, as well as two related links I found interestiing:

 

An X-Men #1 Susan restored (before & after):

http://www.therestorationlab.com/photo_detail.php?image_id=11&page=1

 

The owner's story on a board at comicspriceguide.com:

http://www.comicspriceguide.com/forum2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=30619

 

--James

wow, Susan did a great job on your X-men 1 thumbsup2.gif

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spoonerism

spoonerism

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Benz -- Not my XM1. I wish. smile.gif

 

FFB -- Thanks for the comments. Yeah, grading will always be an art. I just wish there wasn't such a stigma against restored comics.

 

For example, I just (horribly impulsively) bought a copy of Captain America Comics #1 on eBay. It has extra staples added, but looks to be Fine otherwise.

 

And if you look at the prices realized in Heritage auctions for this book, you'll see the PLOD effect:

http://comics.heritageauctions.com/commo...CGC&stage=1

 

Since 2002, Heritage has sold 11 purple-label CGCed copies and 13 blue-label.

 

Blue-label copies averaged 6.5 grade, selling at an average of $33,791.

 

Restored copies averaged 7.2 grade, selling at an average of $14,656.

 

Two months apart in April & June 2004, they sold two 8.0 CGCed copies. The blue-label one went for $60,375 and the restored copy (slight P) went for $12,650.

 

So, basically, if I take steps to make sure my book will last, I run the risk of cutting its value by 50 to 80%

 

That's just insane. (It means I can find some good deals, yes, but it's insane.)

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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I'd prefer doing away with the purple label in favor of a descriptive page that could be added to the display case somehow.

 

Of course you would - you just spent your retirement savings on restored books. 27_laughing.gif

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capt_comics

capt_comics

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Posted
Hi, everyone!

 

Recently I've been spending my retirement money buying lower-grade but restorable Golden Age comics. I'm working with probably one of the top 3 best known restoration artists, and trust her judgement about all things restoration, but she isn't a comic collector, so she isn't exactly on the same page as me.

 

On CGC's FAQ page, they specifically say that cleaning and pressing of comics would not be considered restoration. It seems they draw the line at additive procedures.

 

She disagrees, and won't do simple cleaning and pressings for that reason. (I'm thinking of learning how to do this myself. I would of course reveal that the book had been cleaned and/or pressed when selling one.)

 

There's a seems to be a double standard at work, as well. While tape that is amateur will get you dinged on condition, properly applied conservation tape will make the book "restored."

 

Removing tape is classifed as non-additive, according to the FAQ, and therefore not restoration. However, what about removing someone's extra staples?

 

I'd prefer doing away with the purple label in favor of a descriptive page that could be added to the display case somehow. The letter may include information such as sales history, restoration attempts, provenance and pedigree, et cetera.

 

Between the restoration grey areas and CGCs unpublished guidelines, the only way to know how something will grade is to buy yer ticket and take yer ride.

 

For example, I recently purchased a World's Best (Finest) Comics #1. It is BEAUTIFUL except for five neatly punched holes in the top of the covr (non-artwork-affecting) and the fact that, like most glue-bound comics that are more than 60 years old, its cover is detached.

 

If I knew how they were going to grade it, I could make a decision now about whether to make the restoration. For example, it could be considered an 8.0, with a note about the hole punches; or it could be considered a 6.5.

 

Without strict published guidelines, grading is an art rather than a science. And if I am going to pay an artist to work on my comic, I'd rather pay someone I know a couple hundred dollars to make sure the book will last for my grandchildren to see than to pay some secretive company a percentage of the book's worth so they can stick it in a case where I'll never get to read it again.

 

(This is, of course, an extreme stance. I don't really feel this way. I appreciate the place CGC has in the comics marketplace.)

 

If anyone is still reading, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. smile.gif

 

The market is certainly less harsh on GA books with restoration.

Follow your gut - and ENJOY the comics - whether restored, slabbed, or not.

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kc120us

kc120us

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I'd prefer doing away with the purple label in favor of a descriptive page that could be added to the display case somehow. The letter may include information such as sales history, restoration attempts, provenance and pedigree, et cetera.

 

Between the restoration grey areas and CGCs unpublished guidelines, the only way to know how something will grade is to buy yer ticket and take yer ride.

 

For example, I recently purchased a World's Best (Finest) Comics #1. It is BEAUTIFUL except for five neatly punched holes in the top of the covr (non-artwork-affecting) and the fact that, like most glue-bound comics that are more than 60 years old, its cover is detached.

 

If I knew how they were going to grade it, I could make a decision now about whether to make the restoration. For example, it could be considered an 8.0, with a note about the hole punches; or it could be considered a 6.5.

 

Without strict published guidelines, grading is an art rather than a science. And if I am going to pay an artist to work on my comic, I'd rather pay someone I know a couple hundred dollars to make sure the book will last for my grandchildren to see than to pay some secretive company a percentage of the book's worth so they can stick it in a case where I'll never get to read it again.

 

(This is, of course, an extreme stance. I don't really feel this way. I appreciate the place CGC has in the comics marketplace.)

 

If anyone is still reading, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. smile.gif

 

Interesting thread, James. I had considered something similar to what you are discussing in this thread.....

Link 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

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Aman619

Aman619

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Posted

welcome!

 

As a collector of many years and dollars spent, I merely want to suggest that spending ones retirement money on comics is an iffy proposition. Nearly everyone here will tell you the same thing. And, further, to be buying restored books, or buying unrestored and then restoring them, really takes your retirement money very far removed from the "investment" area of the hobby.

 

The investment area (and forgive me if I am misunderstanding you when you say "retirement money" I am assuming you mean IRAs etc that you plan to live on 20 to 30 years from now..) consists of high demand comics in high grade condition. It is generally accepted as true that these select copies have the best chance of increasing in value equal to an average conservative investment vehicle. (and far from a guaranteed return !)

 

Collecting restored books, however, or restoring books for one's collection are fine, really. We all love our comics and its downright silly what the GA keys sell for nowadays so these are often the only copies one can afford. But, sinking any real sums of cash into them expecting that investment to grow ? well, you have to really love the books because the gains will not be there.

 

My suggestion? Instead of buying a boxfull of books, buy one or two killer unrestored keys. I agree its more fun to have more, but this game plays better with quality over quantity. Or maybe grab a restored Actin 1 or Tec 27. Theres growing demand for them in ANY condition.

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gradejunky

gradejunky

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Try experimenting on similarly bound comics from modern age. I have tried certain techniques on book that I can just throw out when I'm done. Then if you feel comfortable, try some more expensive stuff but don't ruin the old books for experiments sake. smirk.gif

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Dr_Neff

Dr_Neff

Posted
Posted

 

news.gif Even WITH published guidelines (i.e., the Overstreet Grading Guide in its various iterations), it is STILL an art rather than a science. news.gif And I do not believe it is possible to publish a set of grading standards that does not leave ambiguity all over the place.

 

 

 

thumbsup2.gif

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spoonerism

spoonerism

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I'm not spending my retirement money exactly -- I still have 401k, IRA, et cetera. I just have lots of stock options for where I work.

 

I am bullish on my company, but it sure is nice after growing up poor to spend like a wild man. And for now, I can pretend I am diversifying.

 

Anyway, the lessons I've learned in the last year or two are similar to some of what I've heard from you guys:

 

- It's better to buy one or two really nice comics than to buy a collection in hopes you'll get a couple gems. My basement is full of comics from when I tried this approach.

 

- I want to preserve and enjoy my comics, so cheaping out on supplies makes no sense. I am trying to keep anything I am storing long-term in mylites with buffered backs. (The cheap stuff gets the cheap bags still.)

 

- I want to restore and preserve my older, more expensive books. The basic economics make it such that if I intend to buy a comic and restore it, I need to buy a cheap, really good low-grade restoration candidate (and I've learned to spot these, so I've gotten many GAs and some key SAs at good prices, anticipating restoration) or an already-partially restored book (minor amateur restoration or something) that I can do beautiful things to, without worrying about hurting its value.

 

- Restored books are the way to get beautiful copies for great prices.

 

And despite having spent so much, I don't regret it. smile.gif What I do regret are the dozens if not hundreds of long boxes in my basement full of comics that I don't really enjoy.

 

All this has me thinking of opening a shop, even, partially so I can give away or sell a lot of the books I don't want, while accumulating what I do want -- and trading up to better copies of what I have.

 

Unfortunately, I'm still not independantly wealthy, so it'd take more of my time than I can invest, since I need to keep my current job to live.

 

When I hear about the Cap #1 that's at CGC now, I'll ping the board. smile.gif

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