Pressing: Much ado about nothing?

[Conanfan-migration]

A book pressed once isn't a tragedy, but if people ever got too Pro-pressing, eventually we'd end up with alot of high grade books with ultra thin covers, thus the stigma is GOOD. Too bad CGC can't visualize how a comic book Could be, but their job is to grade the book in front of them, which is what everyone wants and expects from them.

[Red Hook]

I disagree completely. Guess, we'll just have to see how things develop.

[Aman619]

why wouldnt he care? Id sooner believe he is fully aware of the ongoing discussions. But, as things now stand, there is nothing he need do about it. But Id think he CARES which way the discussion goes since he could impact his business. Course, he could fix any "impacting" pretty quick!

[Foolkiller]

I disagree completely. Guess, we'll just have to see how things develop.

 

I think this debate will continue if people outside these boards begin to pay attention to the debate. It's an impossible thing to determine right now. But -- Matt's sales seem to be fine, his pressing business is booming from both collectors and dealers --

 

Right now, the only real noise comes from board members. I'm not sure many people on CPG would know what it is, and STL seems to have died out. I don't read the ebay message boards, so I don't know if anyone discusses it there. Too many dealers see the boards as a bunch of noisy malcontents who nobody really takes seriously -- much the same way that creators read boards less and less seeing them as complainers who can't be taken seriously either.

 

However, I will note that if there were a way simply to accurately detect whether pressing has occurred, I think that would change the landscape as well --

[Ze-man]

Actually I think the premise Brad brought up has validity. It simply comes down to jumping off the cliffs of uncertainty(I wanted to say insanity).And is dependent on whether or not people are willing to pay the same amount for a book knowing it was pressed into a better condition, rather then just wondering if it was. (btw..that to me should garner the lions share of our(NOD's efforts..what the exact numbers of realized disclosed sales versus similar "normal" GPA sales figures actually are)

 

Since Matt is known to be among the best in the business it shouldn't have a negative impact on final sales, it should make the sale more attractive and could only help to (for lack of a better word) destigmatize the perceived deception many people think is taking place. Right?

 

But that is the rub,if sales are negatively impacted through this disclosure and people buy and crack out books that were sold as pressed..then resold them undisclosed for top dollar, losing their "pressed" provenance along the way. What was gained by disclosing? 1 person was aware at time of sale?..while that is something, it must be weighed against everything else at stake.

 

Just how virtuous is he supposed to be, and how much of the burden to bring the hobby into the sunlight lies at Matt's feet? That is an answer I do not have.

 

Over the past year my attitude towards pressed books has evolved partly through education and partly through coming to grips with the system that is in place. I am not here to debate or rake those coals again. I just want to try and help steer this ship into less turbulent waters.

 

Be it through discussion on the forum, or with Matt himself.

 

Kenny

[Foolkiller]

Actually I think the premise Brad brought up has validity. It simply comes down to jumping off the cliffs of uncertainty(I wanted to say insanity).And is dependent on whether or not people are willing to pay the same amount for a book knowing it was pressed into a better condition, rather then just wondering if it was. (btw..that to me should garner the lions share of our(NOD's efforts..what the exact numbers of realized disclosed sales versus similar "normal" GPA sales figures actually are)

 

Since Matt is known to be among the best in the business it shouldn't have a negative impact on final sales, it should make the sale more attractive and could only help to (for lack of a better word) destigmatize the perceived deception many people think is taking place. Right?

 

But that is the rub,if sales are negatively impacted through this disclosure and people buy and crack out books that were sold as pressed..then resold them undisclosed for top dollar, and also losing their provenance.

 

So just how virtuous is he supposed to be, and how much of the burden to bring the hobby into the sunlight lies at Matt's feet? That is an answer I do not have.

 

Over the past year my attitude towards pressed books has evolved partly through education and partly through coming to grips with the system that is in place. I am not here to debate or rake those coals again. I just want to try and help steer this ship into less turbulent waters.

 

Be it through discussion on the forum, or with Matt himself.

 

Kenny

 

In order to settle that question though, and I've suggested this before, if the dealers are confident in the stance that "it doesn't impact sales" then do a test and sell some with disclosure. See how it impacts your sales compared to say, recent GPA sales.

 

I'm sure sellers would say, that's all risk and no reward. And my response is, if nobody really is bothered by it, or it doesn't impact your sales, then you can continue pressing and not be worried -- and the reward is having tangible proof that there is no real debate in the hobby. But I get the sense nobody considers that necessary to settle right now. From a personal stand point, I think it helps your cause when you stand behind your beliefs.

[Ze-man]

I forgot.. I think the point that Brad brough up was lost.. If a book is pressed and pressed by a KNOWN pro in the biz correctly.. THAT should be a bonus.. not a detraction.

 

And that should be the control group in any experiment.. disclosure is one thing, disclosure by the person who pressed the books and stands by them is another.

 

 

Ze-

[Lazyboy]

 

'Tec27Kid;

 

I guess we must be back to the same old argument.

 

If artifical intentional pressing is similar to Edgar Church pressing, than shouldn't you really view micro-trimming as being similar to factory trimming.

 

Really nothing wrong with both processes since trimming and pressing is just a part of the normal production and storage process of a book. Especially when you really can't tell when artificial pressing or micro trimming has been done on a book unless you have before and after scans.

 

Is this really your view of the world as there's no real harm since they all hit the finish line looking the same.

hello all...

naturally, these are just my personal viewpoints, but I collect books for me, and I like them to look as nice as possible...

pressing and trimming are 2 different subjects...factory versus secondary applications are 2 different subjects....so.....

if a book is intentionally or unintentionally "pressed" , it is still pressed (end result, post production reference)...if you are asking me if I would differ between a batman 30 that is in 8.0 condition naturally (at one point, it was theoretically higher, when first produced), and one that was a 6.5 and then pressed to an 8.0, to me, they are both the same visually (all else being the same:registration, page quality, etc)....with or without disclosure ( and I fully support disclosure, since not all folks have the same viewpoint as I), it appears to be a 8.0 with nothing added to the book, then I would value/pay the same for them....I fully respect other folks that wouldn't want to pay the same for a pressed versus natural book...absolutely their right...

 

Now, I don't believe a book should be trimmed/micro trimmed, as that changes the "quantity" of the book...if it is trimmed at the factory, that is just part of the production process (right?)....post release/post factory trimming is just that, trimming (with or without comparission scans, it should be disclosed if there is knowledge of it)...so something tangible has been removed from the book (paper, even microscopic amounts, not intended by the manufacturer)...to me, that equates a huge negative to me, and I don't/won't buy a trimmed book....again, that is just me....

I think this is a great subject for debate, and I appreciate and learn from everyone's viewpoints!

rick

 

When the topic of pressing is (frequently) brought up on these boards, the meaning isn't pressure from any source being placed on a book, but pressure intentionally being placed on (at least) part of a book to remove the appearance of any minor damage. It doesn't actually remove damage. The paper fibres aren't repaired, they are just put back in a position where they look better. It is a minor procedure because it can only fix the appearance of minor damage and does not add or remove anything from the book.

 

One of the big reasons I think it should be disclosed is because of the varying degrees of pressing. Any of these defects are possible to press out: a slight corner bend, a bend that goes through the entire book, a few small impact dents on the cover or a spine roll.

 

The pressure from stacking or being packed in a box is more likely to cause damage to the books than it is to remove or reduce the appearance of damage.

[Davenport]

hello all...

naturally, these are just my personal viewpoints, but I collect books for me, and I like them to look as nice as possible...

pressing and trimming are 2 different subjects...factory versus secondary applications are 2 different subjects....so.....

if a book is intentionally or unintentionally "pressed" , it is still pressed (end result, post production reference)...if you are asking me if I would differ between a batman 30 that is in 8.0 condition naturally (at one point, it was theoretically higher, when first produced), and one that was a 6.5 and then pressed to an 8.0, to me, they are both the same visually (all else being the same:registration, page quality, etc)....with or without disclosure ( and I fully support disclosure, since not all folks have the same viewpoint as I), it appears to be a 8.0 with nothing added to the book, then I would value/pay the same for them....I fully respect other folks that wouldn't want to pay the same for a pressed versus natural book...absolutely their right...

 

Now, I don't believe a book should be trimmed/micro trimmed, as that changes the "quantity" of the book...if it is trimmed at the factory, that is just part of the production process (right?)....post release/post factory trimming is just that, trimming (with or without comparission scans, it should be disclosed if there is knowledge of it)...so something tangible has been removed from the book (paper, even microscopic amounts, not intended by the manufacturer)...to me, that equates a huge negative to me, and I don't/won't buy a trimmed book....again, that is just me....

I think this is a great subject for debate, and I appreciate and learn from everyone's viewpoints!

rick

I enjoy reading your posts Rick. Your thinking about "factory" is very similar to my own point of view, I just end up with a polar opposite conclusion.

 

Looking at the top end of the scale "Mint" is split into two levels. It supposedly reflects that collectors highly value minascule aestheic and structural differences of vintage comics. So much so that two measurements of near-perfection are needed. Some miraculous example can appear superior to 99.99% of all the books from the same printing and distribution process, an odds-defying Gem Mint 10.0.

 

Then, at the 9.8 level and below, what? Suddenly "Grade" trumps "Vintage" for the remainder of the scale? Scale placement itself becomes the higher valuation factor? So a book's production-assembly can be disassembled, it's factory pressed cover and folios dry cleaned and re-pressed, it's production alignment realigned, factory staples re-stapled, and it's production fold refolded? All without disclosure, no impact on valuation, since it supports better Scale placement?

 

Seems like a big Valuation switch-er-roo to me. It's almost like there's an unwritten caveat that accompanies undisclosed alteration marketing:

"Hey, since the non-factory post production enhancements are invisible to you, we'll both pretend all aspects of this comic book are still vintage." And priced accordingly, of course.

[Dick Pontoon]

(Apologies for starting another pressing thread, btw)

 

There's been others?

[Red Hook]

I forgot.. I think the point that Brad brough up was lost.. If a book is pressed and pressed by a KNOWN pro in the biz correctly.. THAT should be a bonus.. not a detraction.

Ze-

 

You got my point.

 

That also goes for all known forms of restoration.

[G.A.tor]

 

When the topic of pressing is (frequently) brought up on these boards, the meaning isn't pressure from any source being placed on a book, but pressure intentionally being placed on (at least) part of a book to remove the appearance of any minor damage. It doesn't actually remove damage. The paper fibres aren't repaired, they are just put back in a position where they look better. It is a minor procedure because it can only fix the appearance of minor damage and does not add or remove anything from the book.

 

One of the big reasons I think it should be disclosed is because of the varying degrees of pressing. Any of these defects are possible to press out: a slight corner bend, a bend that goes through the entire book, a few small impact dents on the cover or a spine roll.

 

The pressure from stacking or being packed in a box is more likely to cause damage to the books than it is to remove or reduce the appearance of damage.

hello all...

well said...I'll admit I was too general in my initial comment, and I believe Lazyboy has better defined the pressing differences for me...

ultimately, I was just trying to arrive at a longwinded answer that for me, I would pay the same for an 8.0, pressed intentionally, accidentally, or not at all

rick

[Forbush-Man]

(Apologies for starting another pressing thread, btw)

 

 

Gosh, darn instigator!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sid]

I don't buy high enough value books to really have a stand on it but even though I don't consider pressing to be not restoration, I guess the voice in the back of my mind would keep me from paying as much as I possibly would've if it was untouched. Run on sentence yes I know apologizes.

[Forbush-Man]

I don't buy high enough value books to really have a stand on it but even though I don't consider pressing to be not restoration, I guess the voice in the back of my mind would keep me from paying as much as I possibly would've if it was untouched. Run on sentence yes I know apologizes.

 

But.......if you were an ultra-high grade collector......and you forked out a wad of cash to have the "highest graded" book.........and later someone had a book pressed that got a higher grade............

 

 

How would you like them apples?

 

 

Food for thought.

[Sid]

I don't buy high enough value books to really have a stand on it but even though I don't consider pressing to be not restoration, I guess the voice in the back of my mind would keep me from paying as much as I possibly would've if it was untouched. Run on sentence yes I know apologizes.

 

But.......if you were an ultra-high grade collector......and you forked out a wad of cash to have the "highest graded" book.........and later someone had a book pressed that got a higher grade............

 

 

How would you like them apples?

 

 

Food for thought.

 

My high grade ends at 9.4 anything above that I feel is just opinion and could care less for them. Of course it's pleasant to look at the number but I would answer the rhetorical question specifically even though it is such, but I can't because I really dont' know what these people are thinking.

[drice6900]

(Apologies for starting another pressing thread, btw)

 

 

Gosh, darn instigator!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guilty as charged, but I take no credit for this being one of the better threads discussing the issue. Some real food for thought here in the various responses.

[towards2112]

Now I understand that one of the biggest problems people have is with pressing being undisclosed, but I really thought that considering the huffing & puffing and posturing going on here, that the majority wouldn't go near a known, pressed book.

 

FINALLY you have hit the nail on the head !!!!! HURRAH !!!

 

The key word in all of the debates, has been the specific word "undisclosed".

 

I think that is why NOD was created, and why I joined. I don't mind certain

forms of restoration on certain books with physical problems. I don't look for

uber grades, I just want to be able to handle a comic book without the dang

thing falling apart in my hands.

 

SPLITTING THE HAIRS...

 

As to pressing, I am always going with the assumption that we are ALWAYS

talking about PROFESSIONAL pressing, and not what I might do with a long box

of comic books, stood on end, and a brick for weight doing wonderful work

on some 70's books ?? I seem to recall a thread a few years back that

hammer or someone else started, and actually someone posted the image

of a hot press that could be used to professionally press comic books.

MY question, as it always has been, is WHAT form of pressing is improper,

and harmful, and WHAT form of pressing is OKAY, and NOT harmful to books,

with collectors/dealers/flippers/graders/sellers/buyers. Don Thompson wrote

an article years, and years ago, about pressing, maybe the first national commentary on the subject, though doubtful, that presented the arguement

that comic books neatly and tightly packed into a shortbox, and left in there for

a few years were being pressed. As I read this, I had a feeling the article was

written tongue in cheek. But maybe not. It seems such a simple subject that

has polarized this community. I purchased the stock of a store that closed

back in 1995, some 200 longboxes that have been in storage since the day

I bought them. We consolidated the boxes, IE packed them tightly full to

reduce the wasted space, and they have been sitting undisturbed for over

10 years now. Am I pressing books ?? In my opinion NO, but hopefully if and

when I ever go thru them, they will be flat Who knows I would hope so.

The cost of storage/time/conditions may go the other way, and I'll end up

with offwhite humidity soaked rose bush fertilizer. Debate away. I just want to

know if a pro pressed the book !

[jbud73]

Actually I think the premise Brad brought up has validity. It simply comes down to jumping off the cliffs of uncertainty(I wanted to say insanity).And is dependent on whether or not people are willing to pay the same amount for a book knowing it was pressed into a better condition, rather then just wondering if it was. (btw..that to me should garner the lions share of our(NOD's efforts..what the exact numbers of realized disclosed sales versus similar "normal" GPA sales figures actually are)

 

Since Matt is known to be among the best in the business it shouldn't have a negative impact on final sales, it should make the sale more attractive and could only help to (for lack of a better word) destigmatize the perceived deception many people think is taking place. Right?

 

But that is the rub,if sales are negatively impacted through this disclosure and people buy and crack out books that were sold as pressed..then resold them undisclosed for top dollar, and also losing their provenance.

 

So just how virtuous is he supposed to be, and how much of the burden to bring the hobby into the sunlight lies at Matt's feet? That is an answer I do not have.

 

Over the past year my attitude towards pressed books has evolved partly through education and partly through coming to grips with the system that is in place. I am not here to debate or rake those coals again. I just want to try and help steer this ship into less turbulent waters.

 

Be it through discussion on the forum, or with Matt himself.

 

Kenny

 

In order to settle that question though, and I've suggested this before, if the dealers are confident in the stance that "it doesn't impact sales" then do a test and sell some with disclosure. See how it impacts your sales compared to say, recent GPA sales.

 

I'm sure sellers would say, that's all risk and no reward. And my response is, if nobody really is bothered by it, or it doesn't impact your sales, then you can continue pressing and not be worried -- and the reward is having tangible proof that there is no real debate in the hobby. But I get the sense nobody considers that necessary to settle right now. From a personal stand point, I think it helps your cause when you stand behind your beliefs.

 

FK, I still contend that the majority of people who bought book X graded at level Y for $Z, would feel ripped off where they to find out that book X USED to = grade Y(-2) = to $Z divided by 2.

 

The thing I'm interested to know is (because this is possibly the greatest thing I've learned in the pressing debate) what do other collectors think about dealers in this hobby given the what we now know about their mindset as it pertains to business transactions?

 

I mean think about the rhetoric coming out of the "pressing cabal" as I like to call them.

 

"Won't disclose because a third party (CGC) doesn't consider it resto"

"Won't disclose because there is no way to detect it"

" Will only disclose it asked"

"Will answer NO if asked and they personally didn't perform the work"

"Will not disclose because there is no guarantee that future owners will similarly disclose" THINK ABOUT THIS ONE REAL HARD. My first reaction was "What are we in kindergarten at recess?" My second. "Well YOU performed the pressing, or had it performed and THEREFORE YOU BERE INITIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

 

See this entire line of reasoning is what really bothers me and I could go on adnauseum at the line of normative arguments that have been posited by the "Pressing Cabal" to justify their positioning. In the end it just insults my intelligence and the rationale itself just horrifies me. It leaves me thinking that the dealers in question will really do anything that they can get away with - and by that I mean whatever will not impact sales, anything that can improve the grade of a book and still garner a blue label is not the exception, or the rule - BUT IT IS THEIR GOAL.

 

And that is why I feel the argument is important, what pressing does do, or does not do to the book, while important, to me is almost secondary. The key element for me is to discourage the mentality behind not disclosing what is happening.

 

What I ask every collector to consider are these two questions in today's hobby.

 

1. Do you think comics is a legitimate business?

 

2. If you answered yes, then why is it that the vendors in this hobby are not held to the same standard as other legitimate business entities? If you answered NO - then why are you paying hundreds / thousands of dollars and not pennies for your comic books?

 

The bottom line is that if I and the company I represent dealt with and withheld information from its clients the way the "Pressing Cabal" operates with its customers - well either we'd be out of business, or more likely in jail.

[Scheradon]

FK, I still contend that the majority of people who bought book X graded at level Y for $Z, would feel ripped off where they to find out that book X USED to = grade Y(-2) = to $Z divided by 2.

 

The thing I'm interested to know is (because this is possibly the greatest thing I've learned in the pressing debate) what do other collectors think about dealers in this hobby given the what we now know about their mindset as it pertains to business transactions?

 

I mean think about the rhetoric coming out of the "pressing cabal" as I like to call them.

 

"Won't disclose because a third party (CGC) doesn't consider it resto"

"Won't disclose because there is no way to detect it"

" Will only disclose it asked"

"Will answer NO if asked and they personally didn't perform the work"

"Will not disclose because there is no guarantee that future owners will similarly disclose" THINK ABOUT THIS ONE REAL HARD. My first reaction was "What are we in kindergarten at recess?" My second. "Well YOU performed the pressing, or had it performed and THEREFORE YOU BERE INITIAL RESPONSIBILITY.

 

See this entire line of reasoning is what really bothers me and I could go on adnauseum at the line of normative arguments that have been posited by the "Pressing Cabal" to justify their positioning. In the end it just insults my intelligence and the rationale itself just horrifies me. It leaves me thinking that the dealers in question will really do anything that they can get away with - and by that I mean whatever will not impact sales, anything that can improve the grade of a book and still garner a blue label is not the exception, or the rule - BUT IT IS THEIR GOAL.

 

And that is why I feel the argument is important, what pressing does do, or does not do to the book, while important, to me is almost secondary. The key element for me is to discourage the mentality behind not disclosing what is happening.

 

What I ask every collector to consider are these two questions in today's hobby.

 

1. Do you think comics is a legitimate business?

 

2. If you answered yes, then why is it that the vendors in this hobby are not held to the same standard as other legitimate business entities? If you answered NO - then why are you paying hundreds / thousands of dollars and not pennies for your comic books?

 

The bottom line is that if I and the company I represent dealt with and withheld information from its clients the way the "Pressing Cabal" operates with its customers - well either we'd be out of business, or more likely in jail.

 

Great points!