Nicholas Cage Pedigree

[Shield]

As far as label notations affecting the "hype" of the book, there's no difference between the Cage notation and the Edgar Church notation as far as whether or not it should be on the label - a 9.4 is a 9.4 whether it comes from me or Edgar Church, right?

 

 

Therein lies the rub. There *IS* a difference clearly between Edgar Church and Cage. Church bought all of his copies from the newsstand when they were brand new, hence the nomenclature "pedigree".

[drbanner]

Only the market can answer that question! But if you look at the prices that the Stan Lee books brought, you'll see that a huge premium was paid because he owned the books, not because they were in great condition. Now, not all the Cage books sold in the Heritage auction brought a premium (actually, I don't know if any of them did, but the copy I bought did not), but if a pair of underwear worn by a president can sell for $5,000...there's obviously added desirability to any item owned by famous celebrities.

[deathlok]

IMO: The thing to remember in this instance is that CGC is a business. Like all business that start up and want to carve a name for themselves they might be willing to do things that might not normally do. I'm not saying anything illegal, but they might look the other way on some things. If a collector or investor came to CGC with 2K-4K books and wanted them graded with "FTCO..(insert name)", CGC would be foolish to turn them down. Although having the label on the book may effect the sale of the book, it shouldn't change the value. A 9.4 is still a 9.4. However I believe that CGC will change its policy on labeling once they are an accepted 3rd party grader.

 

Shield, I see your point, and I agree that I don't think Nick should have his own label, otherwise we should all have our name on our books. Yet at the same time I thinks its great that comic books awareness was enlarged by the ownership of Nick.

[drbanner]

Therein lies the rub. There *IS* a difference clearly between Edgar Church and Cage. Church bought all of his copies from the newsstand when they were brand new, hence the nomenclature "pedigree".

 

There is? What's the difference? I though your point was that CGC should be an impartial *GRADING* service, and not contribute to the hype? If so, what difference does it make where the book came from or who bought it when, a 9.4 is a 9.4 is a 9.4, right?

 

The labels are different for pedigree books than for the Cage/DS books. People like to own items previously owned/touched by famous people. CGC provides a great authentication service for such items by identifying it on the label, whether it's a Church copy or a Cage book.

[Shield]

Therein lies the rub. There *IS* a difference clearly between Edgar Church and Cage. Church bought all of his copies from the newsstand when they were brand new, hence the nomenclature "pedigree".

 

There is? What's the difference? I though your point was that CGC should be an impartial *GRADING* service, and not contribute to the hype? If so, what difference does it make where the book came from or who bought it when, a 9.4 is a 9.4 is a 9.4, right?

 

The labels are different for pedigree books than for the Cage/DS books. People like to own items previously owned/touched by famous people. CGC provides a great authentication service for such items by identifying it on the label, whether it's a Church copy or a Cage book.

 

 

The difference is the Church books are a pedigree and should be noted as such. Stan Lee contributed to the comic community. Both things the Cage books weren't, unless they were from some other already recognized pedigree. Sure a 9.4 is a 9.4, but not all 9.4's are equal. They may be structurally, but have other certain identifying characteristics that designates them as part of a pedigree. Are you suggesting there should be just a flat grading system with no other differentiating notes/remarks?

[drbanner]

Are you suggesting there should be just a flat grading system with no other differentiating notes/remarks?

 

Not at all, this appeared to be your position.

 

Like I said, either you feel that CGC should stick strictly to grading (who cares where the book came from), or you feel that they should add provenance to the label where known (this book was owned by Stan Lee, or this book came from the famous Mile high collection, etc.,.). If you accept the latter, then as far as CGC's concerned, there should be no difference between a book that comes from me, Stan, or Edgar as far as what goes on the label. The buyer will then place their own value ($) on owning a book that was once part of the Mile High collection, once owned by me, or once owned by Madonna.

 

If you think it's okay to put Stan Lee on the label, where does it end? What about books owned by Ditko, Kirby, Miller, Severin, Trimpe, McFarlane, De La Cruz, JoSchmoe, etc.,.?

[Shield]

Are you suggesting there should be just a flat grading system with no other differentiating notes/remarks?

 

Not at all, this appeared to be your position.

 

Like I said, either you feel that CGC should stick strictly to grading (who cares where the book came from), or you feel that they should add provenance to the label where known (this book was owned by Stan Lee, or this book came from the famous Mile high collection, etc.,.). If you accept the latter, then as far as CGC's concerned, there should be no difference between a book that comes from me, Stan, or Edgar as far as what goes on the label. The buyer will then place their own value ($) on owning a book that was once part of the Mile High collection, once owned by me, or once owned by Madonna.

 

If you think it's okay to put Stan Lee on the label, where does it end? What about books owned by Ditko, Kirby, Miller, Severin, Trimpe, McFarlane, De La Cruz, JoSchmoe, etc.,.?

 

 

Bah. You can't just lump those together like that. Big difference from an established pedigree / File Copies vs. "From the Collection of (insert someone with 0 impact on the comic community)".

[aardvark88]

If the Ghost Rider movie actually gets filmed with Nic as the hero would we stop this debate? Then Nic would have actually been a part of comicdom.

[fantastic_four]

I have a problem with several things related to "collections" versus "pedigrees":

 

• Steve Borock saying he'll put the name of anybody on the label who is willing to submit a significant chunk of change their way. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the direct implication of this statement is that you can buy your way onto the CGC label, and with the latest advertisement for the "Dallas Stephens/Milehighcomics.com" collection sitting prominently in the CGC presentation of those books, it's fairly obvious you can buy label space. I know CGC is a business and the reality of business is that you need to make a profit, but once CGC has significant competition, this will stand against them in the court of public opinion if their competitors take what they could tout as a "higher ethical ground" by not selling ad space on their labels.
• Everybody in this thread knows that "collections" are written in a different place on the label in all caps and that "pedigrees" are written in the upper-right corner of the label using Proper Case, but new collectors and people who don't closely follow CGC almost certainly don't know this. As a result, CGC has blurred the distinction between a "pedigree" and a "collection" to the point where it is indistinguishable to a large segment of the comic buying base. The distinction could be made more clear by both documenting this policy on their web site and in informational pamphlets and by further distinguishing these two concepts on their label. Simply putting a label like "Pedigree:" in front of the pedigree name would go a long way towards eliminating non-hardcore-collector confusion about the difference between original owner collections and "assembled" collections.

[CosmicBob]

I have a problem with several things related to "collections" versus "pedigrees":

 

• Steve Borock saying he'll put the name of anybody on the label who is willing to submit a significant chunk of change their way. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the direct implication of this statement is that you can buy your way onto the CGC label, and with the latest advertisement for the "Dallas Stephens/Milehighcomics.com" collection sitting prominently in the CGC presentation of those books, it's fairly obvious you can buy label space. I know CGC is a business and the reality of business is that you need to make a profit, but once CGC has significant competition, this will stand against them in the court of public opinion if their competitors take what they could tout as a "higher ethical ground" by not selling ad space on their labels.
• Everybody in this thread knows that "collections" are written in a different place on the label in all caps and that "pedigrees" are written in the upper-right corner of the label using Proper Case, but new collectors and people who don't closely follow CGC almost certainly don't know this. As a result, CGC has blurred the distinction between a "pedigree" and a "collection" to the point where it is indistinguishable to a large segment of the comic buying base. The distinction could be made more clear by both documenting this policy on their web site and in informational pamphlets and by further distinguishing these two concepts on their label. Simply putting a label like "Pedigree:" in front of the pedigree name would go a long way towards eliminating non-hardcore-collector confusion about the difference between original owner collections and "assembled" collections.

 

And it could be that the guy listing this book as a Nic Cage Pedigree also doesn't know the difference.

[Rip]

A well thought out post. Five stars for you FF!!!

 

I agree...CGC NEEDS to better inform the public of these concepts.

Dallas Stephens/Milehighcomics.com is a FAR more questionable notation than Cage. Steve B. at CGC needs to be CAREFUL here. I would also LOVE to see some "official CGC" input into this thread.

 

[Darthdiesel]

Considering that it is just a notation, and one that does not carry forward if a book is re-slabbed, I don't see any problem with it at all. Steve has said that anyone who wants to submit 1,000 books can have their very own notation on the label. Doesn't mean it's a pedigree. Just means that they spent some money on getting books slabbed...

 

I'm wondering if we can get a 1000 books together from forumites to notate it with "From the Collection of 'Short Shorts' "

[ericc123]

Sheild I think your hitting the tip of the iceberg on a bigger question that has been brought up over and over again. You are upset because you are afraid that the comic you posted will sell for more because some newbie will think it is from a pedigree. But should a pedigree even sell for more in the first place? I mean isn't a 9.4 from the Boston Pedigree the same as a 9.4 of any other CGC graded book of the same exact comic. People pay more to have books from famous collections. Now Nic Cage's books might not be a pedigree but I would say that at one point they were in a famous collection. Just a thought......

 

Ericc123

[fantastic_four]

Dallas Stephens/Milehighcomics.com is a FAR more questionable notation than Cage. Steve B. at CGC needs to be CAREFUL here.

 

It's along the same lines as that partnership with Wizard they had planned at one point. It detracts from your ability to defend your reputation as an impartial third-party grading service when you're willing to sell advertising space for your biggest customers right in the center of your product--right below the grade and above the page whiteness.

 

However, since the whole concept of pedigrees is heavily market-oriented, I can see the parallels between "collections" and "pedigrees" that have led them to think this isn't that big a deal. Perhaps the collection and pedigree concepts are both nothing but hype...I sure used to think that was true of pedigrees. There's something I really like about the stories behind the best pedigrees, though...so I'm still partially on the fence with how "collections" should compare to "pedigrees."

[Darthdiesel]

I simply posted a reference to an auction in which someone is exploiting the idea by saying "Nicholas Cage Pedigree". Now, you and I know exactly what they are and what they 'ain't', but to the average new collector looking for a copy of that book? They may spend crazy money thinking it is a 'real' pedigree, which is why I feel CGC should never have put that on the label.

....counter me with why it isn't...

 

 

Shield,

 

I can see your concern. Let me give it a shot. What if, if I understand the main crux of your concern is, we have those publications in the comic industry with the most influence, EDUCATE the average new collector as to the difference between real recognized pedigrees (Gaines, Western Penn, Ohio, Edgar Church) and collections (Top Cow, Nicholas Cage, Lost Valley...possibly "From the collection of Darthdiesel" in the near futuer ) I can see that CGC is a business as well and if it takes the possibility of having your own label to get you to slab our beauties then I'd love to get together 1000 books of mine to be graded and to have from the "Collection of Darthdiesel" on the label - pure ego, I know, but nice to look at nonetheless. And if you or any buyer of my labelled books don't agree, then they can resubmit for a fresh holder? I personally wouldn't mind owning something with celebrity status like signatures, sketches autographs and even more accessible now, celebrity owned copies (Nic Cage, Stan Lee)

 

I think there will always be that conflict between CGC trying to provide a needed service of third party grading and trying to insure repeat business to keep them going.

 

Even if one person can't afford the $10000 to get their own label notation. I'm sure they could form groups or cliubs that could. "From the Collection of CGC Forumites", "From the Canadian Eskimo Collection" , "From the NRA Collection", "From the Stckwzrd Collection"

 

honestly, there are some sellers out on eBay who churn out enough slabbed output to easily qualify....

 

[Rip]

above the page whiteness.

 

However, since the whole concept of pedigrees is heavily market-oriented, I can see the parallels between "collections" and "pedigrees" that have led them to think this isn't that big a deal. Perhaps the collection and pedigree concepts are both nothing but hype...I sure used to think that was true of pedigrees. There's something I really like about the stories behind the best pedigrees, though...so I'm still partially on the fence with how "collections" should compare to "pedigrees.

 

You made me think about something else. One of the things I'd like to see CGC do is junk their ENTIRE page quality scale and adopt something more along the lines of OWL or what PCE uses.

 

[CosmicBob]

honestly, there are some sellers out on eBay who churn out enough slabbed output to easily qualify....

 

You mean like Reynold Jay?

 

Will he ever give up on that Captain Canuck?

[Darthdiesel]

honestly, there are some sellers out on eBay who churn out enough slabbed output to easily qualify....

 

You mean like Reynold Jay?

 

Will he ever give up on that Captain Canuck?

 

flcales, kochcom, ejaenter(Jason Ewert), toywiz.com, captwhiz, grrii, ideal collectibles, comic collector shop, harley yee, reynoldjay, hitman1099, a-1comics, collector83aw, paradisecomics@wiznet.ca, aardvarkps...

 

 

the list goes on. If these guys all pooled their submissions for 3 months and then sent it in...I'm sure these guys could all qualify for having their names on the label...

[deathlok]

Another question becomes, since we know Cage bought his books after publication. What if a collector acquired 4000 CGC books, submitted them for reslabbing at the same time. Could that collector get his name on it from resubs?

[Darthdiesel]

I think we definitely know the answer to that is "Yes" as evidenced by the "From the Dallas Stephens collection" - he may have bought some of his books, even a majority, after publication off the newstands, but he was also know for combing local cons for high grade. I'm sure he DID not have to separate those. and I don't think a "collection" notation requires proof of original ownership and this is one of the things that differentiates it from a "Pedigree"