Nicholas Cage Pedigree

[Darthdiesel]

1) CGC claimed to have no knowledge of the fact that the two Marvel Mystery issues in question were the ones they'd previously graded for Nic Cage/Heritage, thus excusing CGC from having any way of recognizing that the books in question had been cleaned a pressed (something CGC claims to be able to spot anyway)

 

 

I thought it was just pressed from reading past threads about it, and pressing itself will not get you the Purple label. Cleaning using chemical washes can be

detected and will get you that purple label. Using the "Wonder bread" cleaning technique however...

 

2) If I submitted an Edgar Church book to CGC after cracking the slab, CGC would still recognize it as such... maybe that IS the distinction: the Church books warrant a true pedigree label because they're instantly recognizable to the cognoscenti of comic books; the Cage books aren't, by CGC's own admission.

 

I thought CGC would only note that it is a Church book if provenance was provided by the submitter?

[MrNice-migration]

Now you all have ME confused (I feel like Ray Milland in "the Lost Weekend"....and it's not even Saturday as of yet!!), and I did vote for Hammer in Hickory Dickory Doc's little poll/expose, just to liven up the joint a bit. But what the hell, I'll be a good sport about it (what other choice do I have..I can't kill all of you!!! ...... hey!! just kidding!).

 

If Doc's ultra-sophisticated, double blind, standardized, scientifically infallible poll finds that I'm Hammer, then by God, I'll be Hammer and I'll immediately not only adopt a hammer, effective immediately, as an Avatar, but from that day forth (once all the votes are tabulated) I'll do all my posting while wearing a rubber chicken suit. That'll teach me a lesson I soon won't forget!

 

[Illiterati-migration]

Post deleted because who really wants the mess, anyway?

[MrNice-migration]

I can only hope and pray that everyone here doesn't have the wherewithall to actually identify all of these very special people by name!! I do, God help me, and believe me..it's nothing to be proud of!!

[THE_BEYONDER]

[Darthdiesel]

The general mistrust and unfounded conspiracy theories floating around do nothing else but foster the general spirit of mistrust and jealousy in the comic collecting community today. Everyone speaking out against CGC usually is out to promote his or her own agenda as opposed to genuine concern for the state of comic collecting everywhere. I'd take all such diatribes with a grain (a like, more likely) of salt

 

Everyone speaking out against CGC usually is out to promote his or her own agenda as opposed to genuine concern for the state of comic collecting everywhere.

 

Just wanted to make sure everyone caught that. Nicely said Carl.

 

Here, I'll help make sure everyone catches this, AND understands that it's utter malarkey. "Everyone speaking out against CGC..." whose spouting conspiracy theories now? Any time these kinds of generalizations are tossed around, the source of such generalizations has HIS own agenda

 

 

You took my statement out of context and forgot "usually". Those you "usually" see ranting and raving about CGC's positions on not revealing the secret formula to their grading or about "perceived" leniency in grading given to big names or big accounts do so without conclusive evidence. I can assure you I have no such agenda at hand. I benefit none from speaking out for what I believe about CGC's ethics and the way they conduct their business. They have my full trust and the day something happens to compromise that is the day I stop submitting my books for grading. All accusations I've seen so far have been mere speculation.

 

I often speak out against CGC's practices, but I don't wish CGC any ill will. What I wish is that CGC would constructively apply at least some of the criticism leveled against it, to improve its services.

 

What if the criticism does not meet with what CGC thinks is best for successfully running its business or does not provide any useful change to its grading standards. ON the other hand, how do you know they do not take some of these rants at face value and improve their services? Just because they don't take your suggestions is no reason to take personal affront and make it an issue with CGC.

 

 

The many loopholes in its practices - from inconsistencies in grading to waffling on what is and isn't restoration to whether or not they follow commonly accepted industry standard grading guidelines, to name a few examples - are fodder for such criticism, and rightly so.

 

Garth, where are these loopholes and inconsistencies? Or is this just your perception of matters at hand? Just because someone points out in a thread about a jarring example of CGC missing something on a book, according to the poster, does not mean that CGC is automatically in the wrong and that poster is putting out this information without an agenda to discredit the existence of CGC in the hobby.

 

CGC's tackling of restoration was a much-needed service to prevent many dealers from continuing to defraud, sometimes knowingly, and fleece uninformed buyers, collectors and speculators alike, when purchasing rare costly books. Where is this waffling? Do you mean the reference on the label fine print about how they reserve the right to make the call on blue or purple labeling low grade Golden Age, dependent on the degree of Color Touch? I thought that was a bone thrown to Golden Age collectors who were probably sitting on entire collections with tape and CT. Personally, no matter what grade, or age I would have purple labeled them all. But it is an inherent part of the Golden Age genre from what I hear so I can live with it.

 

What is the big need for a definitive public statement on the actual guidelines that CGC is using to grade by? What does it benefit anyone if that actually comes out? So CGC can be second-guessed by those who think they can grade now that they've read an Overstreet Grading Guide or a Wizard price guide preamble on grading? When they first came out, they've already stated that they have used Overstreet and a combination of grading styles they've come up with from experience and by talking to several members of the collecting community. Note that Overstreet had put out a 2002 grading guide that more accurately reflects the state of grading. That is because this "industry standard in grading" you mentioned was vague enough for those unscrupulous sellers to hide behind when selling junk as near mint. What would CGC benefit from publishing its grading standards? I guess guys like you can sleep better knowing CGC uses the grading guidelines outlined in the Overstreet 2002 Grading guide (or NOT ), but just opens up a whole can of worms with even more detractors posting auctions with descriptions of how CGC screwed up or more thread posts of "WTF was CGC thinking in grading this a 9.0?" All I know is I'm happy with what I've received so far when I send my books in and I've received the whole range, from 0.5 up to a 10.0, and I can say with full confidence that they have not shocked me once with their verdicts on the condition of my books.

 

 

Would you prefer that we all just kneel at the CGC shrine, pay through the nose for mediocre service, and say "that CGC is god's gift to comic collectors, dealers, and speculators alike" ??

 

Actually I believe a monthly prescreen tithing would be preferable, but you'd have to ask Steve Borock about that...

I don't know what rates you are paying but "thru the nose" seems a bit excessive, to the ad hominem degree, don't you think? 20% discounts abound using submission forms through major dealers. And I can honestly say CGC is a boon to the comic collecting community. Without them, we all still be at the mercy of unscrupulous rip-offs using the 3 grade system and forcing us to accept restored books with detached covers and loose rusty staple as NM...

 

[Darthdiesel]

2. Not everyone pointing out flaws with CGC has anything to gain; especially myself. I don't sell high grade books because I don't own very many. The thought of there being 1000 or more copies of a book available for purchase doesn't appeal to me at all.

 

3. Thank you gargantu for saying things I would've said had I been here the last 4 hours. You and I see eye-to-eye completely on this issue.

 

Those who criticize for the most part USUALLY have something against CGC, just for their existence. It is like, CGC is an affront to the good ol' boy system by which they had happily coexisted screwing over people while profiting. I think there is a difference between your and Garth's intelligent posts with some sense and points I can agree upon or live with versus some of the silly unfounded claims I've seen on eBay in item descriptions or brought up here on our Forums about CGC/Heritage/Nic Cage conspiracies to rip off people and maximize their revenue.

 

I still disagree with the potential harm to the hobby you perceive in the FTCO notation. If it really means that much to someone, one can come up with their own provenance - look at Reynoldjay and his own COA he sends out with his slabbed books, or Jay Company and the COAs they include with their Museum Editions and sketched/signed copies, and when talking about sig copies, Dynamic Forces will come up as the top company who can get an authentic signature from some of the hardest to find signatures of creators in the business. If I had lets say a unique collection ( Hmm - highest graded set of 30 cent Marvel price variants, let say) - I'd definitely resubmit them just so the label read - From the Collection of Darthdiesel - as I would be proud of that accomplishment and would want to share that with posterity...

[Rip]

Those who criticize for the most part USUALLY have something against CGC, just for their existence. It is like, CGC is an affront to the good ol' boy system by which they had happily coexisted screwing over people while profiting.

 

Hey now...I'm not sure I agree with that statement either. I do see lots of general concern also. I like to give CGC a bad time about something simply because I think they're wrong. Here's a list of problems I'd like to see impoved upon

 

(full disclosure problems with restoration removal, pressed books etc.)

(poor page grading system)

(questionable provenance notation ie. Dallas books)

(too little deduction for grease pencil arrival dates and oxidation shadows)

see page 148 of the grading guide for example

(factors age far too MUCH into the grading scale... in other words they many times grade golden age high end books much more loosely than I would)

 

 

However I still think they are better grader than any dealer.

[Darthdiesel]

Those who criticize for the most part USUALLY have something against CGC, just for their existence. It is like, CGC is an affront to the good ol' boy system by which they had happily coexisted screwing over people while profiting.

 

Hey now...I'm not sure I agree with that statement either. I do see lots of general concern also. I like to give CGC a bad time about something simply because I think they're wrong. Here's a list of problems I'd like to see impoved upon

 

(full disclosure problems with restoration removal, pressed books etc.)

(poor page grading system)

(questionable provenance notation ie. Dallas books)

(too little deduction for grease pencil arrival dates and oxidation shadows)

see page 148 of the grading guide for example

(factors age far too MUCH into the grading scale... in other words they many times grade golden age high end books much more loosely than I would)

 

 

However I still think they are better grader than any dealer.

 

 

Once again Rip, I wasn't thinking about you, Garth and shield as the main targets of this statement. And your list of concerns may have been taken into account by CGC and their answer to it may not have agreed with yours. It's all still up in the air. I think it's fine to voice concern and air out disagreements. We'll just have to disagree until something more concrete comes along, if it comes along. Until then, I'm happy with how things are

 

[PovertyRow]

Well in one day I confess the number of responses here have flabbergasted me. Well, now I have time to chime in with my own further thoughts.

 

I think most of the folks here know me and, whether we agree or disagree on certain points, at least I hope you feel I am trying to shoot straight, so to speak.

 

Some of what I will say (maybe all of what I will say) has already been expressed by others in the various threads here.

 

CGC is a grading company. It is their goal to grade comic books as accurately as possible. It is also their goal to reveal restoration when it is present. Further, if they can verify a pedigree they endeavor to do so if the book is submitted under a pedigreed provenance. All of these things are well and good.

 

However, I have to ask, would you buy an automobile from a dealer who has a "guaranty" against defects but does not reveal what that guaranty covers? I feel the same about the silence CGC maintains about the criteria they use to "guaranty" a grade. People are not only buying CGC's services for money, but people are also paying considerable premiums over raw for CGC's books. To basically put blind faith like that into any business venture is questionable. Apply the same standards and revelations CGC has made public to most other business ventures. Would you do business with a company that had such secrecy about their OSHA findings (should such a thing be allowed)?

 

Bottom line - CGC has shown differing standards based on genre with the restoration aspect. I really don’t care if a GA book has a small amount (or tiny amount) of color touch. If color touch is considered by CGC restoration, then every book with the slightest amount of touch should be glommed in with the other books CGC classes as restored that only have a small (or tiny) amount of color touch.

 

What I see happening here is that CGC isn’t really the fault - it is the huge number of people who accept on blind faith what CGC labels say. I consider it the most elementary form of denial to buy a CGC blue label that states "tiny amount of color touch" but shun any book with minimal restoration with a purple label. It reveals absolutely no real judgment on the part of the buyer.

 

As far as tape goes - it is insanity to allow scotch tape in a blue label. Scotch tape, as hopefully everyone knows, will over time eat into and deteriorate the cover or interior pages and do so irrevocably. When the tape stains penetrate the paper (and that is WHEN - not IF) then absolutely nothing can be done to actually undo the damage.

 

Regards listings like "from the collection of" - if it is true that if someone can submit a sufficient number of books to have this appellation added - that is one of the worst moves CGC could make, because it smacks of preferential treatment for big customers, which supercedes the objectivity they should show as a grading service.

 

I have yet to see CGC put to "the test", where a wide selection of books graded by CGC have been removed from the holders and examined by other experts, with their grading given. If this HAS happened then I apologize for the assumption it hasn't and would appreciate info on the event. And I think this is what gets under my skin the most. That CGC has been so immediately accepted as an almost universal expert but with no revelation of their standards or criteria.

 

Now as far as my own opinion of CGC? I think what they are TRYING to do is a good thing. But there are too many unanswered questions. Why is a "warehouse find" called a "file copy"? (witness the Harvey pre-code horror books). Why are books with scotch tape actually sealed up so the tape can just sit there and slowly munch away at the paper? Why are mis-cuts - often very bad mis-cuts, allowed in such high grades? Why is color touch not always resto-labelled? Why is a book with a married cover called Qualified instead of restored? (Jeeze - in that case, the book itself never actually existed until someone got a cover and interior pages and restapled them - which requires staples to be removed or even replaced). There are more questions I have, and I have asked them before, but this is an idea of the kind of thing I think will ultimately bite CGC in the butt. Right now we are in the infancy of slabbed grading. 10 or 20 years form now? I envision a very different playing field.

 

Again, I respect what CGC is trying to do but do not agree with how they are going about doing it.

 

Phew! Now I have to put this all in a spell checker.

 

[Darthdiesel]

Phew! Now I have to put this all in a spell checker.

 

Nice job but you still missed " 10 or 20 years form now?"

[PovertyRow]

Phew! Now I have to put this all in a spell checker.

 

Nice job but you still missed " 10 or 20 years form now?"

 

Darn you! Darn you to HECK!!!!!!!!

[Aman619]

its okay, POV only one mistake in an endless boring diatribe like that? well done sir, well done!

[ArAich]

its okay, POV only one mistake in an endless boring diatribe like that? well done sir, well done!

 

POV's diatribes are anything but boring...Pov has among the most unique , informative and imaginative "diatribes" in forum history...

[drbanner]

Further, if they can verify a pedigree they endeavor to do so if the book is submitted under a pedigreed provenance.

 

CGC has identified pedigree books (and labelled them as such) without the submitter knowing (or providing documentation for) ahead of time that the book was from a pedigree collection.

[drbanner]

Now you all have ME confused (I feel like Ray Milland in "the Lost Weekend"....and it's not even Saturday as of yet!!), and I did vote for Hammer in Hickory Dickory Doc's little poll/expose, just to liven up the joint a bit. But what the hell, I'll be a good sport about it (what other choice do I have..I can't kill all of you!!! ...... hey!! just kidding!).

 

If Doc's ultra-sophisticated, double blind, standardized, scientifically infallible poll finds that I'm Hammer, then by God, I'll be Hammer and I'll immediately not only adopt a hammer, effective immediately, as an Avatar, but from that day forth (once all the votes are tabulated) I'll do all my posting while wearing a rubber chicken suit. That'll teach me a lesson I soon won't forget!

 

The more you rant about it, the better my case becomes...thanks!

[ArAich]

Further, if they can verify a pedigree they endeavor to do so if the book is submitted under a pedigreed provenance.

 

CGC has identified pedigree books (and labelled them as such) without the submitter knowing (or providing documentation for) ahead of time that the book was from a pedigree collection.

 

I believe this happened with one of Joannas submissions...

[NoImSpartacus]

 

Well, I figured since this is a Nick Cage post it was time to get a book up here so you can all see. You all have talked about grading and seeing exactly how the label looks so here is my book. It the only Nick Cage piece I own only cause it was purchased as both a comic and a curio piece. Anyway, the small white dot you see to the left of the monsters eye is just a small piece of packing peanut that got statically attached to the front of the plastic case and not part of the comic. Comic looks great except for the piece out of upper right corner. You can all be the judge on grade regarding the piece missing from upper right. Piece was picked up for much less than guide and didnt cost anymore than if book was not from the Nick Cage collection.

 

http://aaaaahacomics.com/planetscan.html

 

I wasnt too sure about how to present the code above so you could just click it on as its been a long time since writing html code.

[panhandlefool]

Those who criticize for the most part USUALLY have something against CGC, just for their existence. It is like, CGC is an affront to the good ol' boy system by which they had happily coexisted screwing over people while profiting.

 

Hey now...I'm not sure I agree with that statement either. I do see lots of general concern also. I like to give CGC a bad time about something simply because I think they're wrong. Here's a list of problems I'd like to see impoved upon

 

(full disclosure problems with restoration removal, pressed books etc.)

(poor page grading system)

(questionable provenance notation ie. Dallas books)

(too little deduction for grease pencil arrival dates and oxidation shadows)

see page 148 of the grading guide for example

(factors age far too MUCH into the grading scale... in other words they many times grade golden age high end books much more loosely than I would)

 

 

However I still think they are better grader than any dealer.

 

Good points. I especially agree that they are more lenient with GA and the older books. Look at a GA CGC 9.4 book, find a "Spawn" or other modern book in the same condition and send it in, then see what you get. And I agree they are a better grader than most sellers/dealers out there.

 

Regarding the mention about people paying many times guide for CGC books, I think this is more due to the consistent overgrading of sellers and dealers. Buyers have gotten so tired of buying "NM" books off ebay, only to get it in the mail and find it's VF/VF+ at best, if that. That "consistency" of bad grading is what creates the "X-times" guide for CGC books off ebay and other auctions.

 

Just more of my rantings. Good luck to all.

[MrNice-migration]

Ranting? Doc, you take yourself and your pseudo-scientific/voodoo methods of detection (c'mon, Doc. A poll?? To determine if I'm Hammer or not? The fact that you're actually serious about using a poll as a determining factor is so cute, almost child-like in your struggling effort to prove your theorey) far too seriously.

 

If you really want a challenge, why not try tying your shoelaces while looking in a mirror at your shoes? Or for that matter, you can try to figure what FORMER semi-regular customer of yours I was?

 

For your next poll, you should ask the Forum member's assistance in determining just when the next time I'll either bid on one of your auctions or buy something outright from you again (When hell freezes over?, When the sun runs out of hydrogen?)

 

This should be rather easy for someone of your grand intellect. Use the same type of insufficiently_thoughtful_person-savant method employed by "Ray" in "Rainman". Note who bids on your auctions, and buys outright from you over the next 3 months or so. Then note whose presence among those participants is no longer evident. By the continual process of elimination, you'll have your answer as to who I am.

 

You may also deduce that it's never good practice to insult and wrongfully accuse steady clients. But you may want to check on that theorey with another poll.

 

Now how'sabout we stick to the comics themselves, eh Doc?