Great, another thread locked

[Paratrooper]

Do I need to make another "Thank CGC for Deleting that thread about a deleted thread?"

[namisgr]

I don't equate pressing with restoration. Trimming - sure, color touched - absolutely, structural support - yes, but simple pressing doesn't fall in my definition of restoration. Convince me otherwise and I may change my tune.

Richard

 

So let's agree to not call it restoration. We can certainly agree that pressing is "manipulation". So is dry cleaning. Call me silly, but I'm a collector that strongly prefers to buy unmanipulated high grade books when one is available over a manipulated one. I also strongly prefer to conduct my business with dealers willing to freely disclose whether a book has been manipulated. Finally, I think the hobby would benefit in the long run from dealers taking a proactive stance and disclosing known manipulation whether they have been asked about it or not. Manipulation matters in other collectible hobbies, in many cases a great deal, and I believe this is an attitude that many potential new comic collectors and big spenders will have as well.

 

Your tune? I don't expect to change it. You'd have more of my business if you would...

[FFB]

The pressing that used to be discussed as restoration is different from the pressing that folks like Matt Nelson are doing now. In the old days, after dis-assembling a comic to wet clean it (dipping the cover in an evaporative cleaning solution) it had to be re-sized and pressed flat after drying. Thus "Cleaned and Pressed". The pressing that I (at present) don't have a problem with is localized flattening of paper unassociated with any other restorative procedures. In other words, I have no problem with ironing out a wave, ripple, or light bend that doesn't break color or paper fiber. It is this type of pressing that can turn an 8.0 to a 9.0, 9.0 to 9.2 etc.

 

No...it was the pressing out of wrinkles that I'm referring to. It was discussed in Overstreet as well as some of the periodicals of the time (Comic Journal comes to mind). What you're referring to has been discussed as well but it's an entirely different procedure than what I'm referring to...

 

Jim

 

Actually, I think you guys are both talking about the same thing.

[deathlok]

i have some male characters coming up next on the list

 

What did Greggy order this time?

[rob_allan]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

 

He may have suffered enough, but it's good the information is out there. I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together and I wouldn't want to buy books procured in that manner. How about leaving it open as a courtesy to people who buy books and like to be informed? My understanding is he's still doing business? What if I encounter him in a possible business transaction, buy a book, and find out about this later? I don't deserve to own a book I'll feel that way about.

[deathlok]

Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

 

[greggy]

Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

 

[deathlok]

Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

 

[Scheradon]

Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

 

 

[MrBedrock]

The pressing that used to be discussed as restoration is different from the pressing that folks like Matt Nelson are doing now. In the old days, after dis-assembling a comic to wet clean it (dipping the cover in an evaporative cleaning solution) it had to be re-sized and pressed flat after drying. Thus "Cleaned and Pressed". The pressing that I (at present) don't have a problem with is localized flattening of paper unassociated with any other restorative procedures. In other words, I have no problem with ironing out a wave, ripple, or light bend that doesn't break color or paper fiber. It is this type of pressing that can turn an 8.0 to a 9.0, 9.0 to 9.2 etc.

 

No...it was the pressing out of wrinkles that I'm referring to. It was discussed in Overstreet as well as some of the periodicals of the time (Comic Journal comes to mind). What you're referring to has been discussed as well but it's an entirely different procedure than what I'm referring to...

 

Jim

 

Frankly, I don't recall there ever being a consensus in the collecting community that it was or wasn't. It certainly wasn't discussed among other topics of restoration in the circles I ran in and was party to. Now understand, I am talking pre-CGC days. The Comic Journal article was post CGC and directly pertains to our discussion here.

[FFB]

Or how about any of the countless Greggy vs Deathlok graemlin threads (sorry guys - no offense). It's a bit rediculous that we can't even be allowed to have a lively discussion here anymore.

 

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

 

He may have suffered enough, but it's good the information is out there. I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together and I wouldn't want to buy books procured in that manner. How about leaving it open as a courtesy to people who buy books and like to be informed? My understanding is he's still doing business? What if I encounter him in a possible business transaction, buy a book, and find out about this later? I don't deserve to own a book I'll feel that way about.

 

You can still search and read the thread, no?

[garthgantu]

Jim,

I appreciate the dialogue.... The pressing that I (at present) don't have a problem with is localized flattening of paper unassociated with any other restorative procedures. In other words, I have no problem with ironing out a wave, ripple, or light bend that doesn't break color or paper fiber. It is this type of pressing that can turn an 8.0 to a 9.0, 9.0 to 9.2 etc.

 

Mr. Bedrock, your position on the subject is clear and well-presented...and begs a couple of questions:

- if the type of cleaning with which you (and many others I believe) have no problem "can turn an 8.0 to 9.0, 9.2, etc." then what kind of pressing is being done that's resulting in books as low as 4.0s or 4.5s becoming 7.5s or 8.0s, yet still garners a blue label from CGC? (As illustrated in both the Manufactured Gold thread and the long-standing and lengthy list of manipulated Church/Mile High books.)

 

- do you agree with CGC's relatively recent change in philosophy re: pressing which involves disassembly, which now appears to permit such processes on blue-label books?

 

- if you DID have a problem with the kinds of pressing that involves "ironing out a wave, ripple or light bend that doesn't break color," wouldn't you like to be informed by the seller before purchasing such a book, so you could make a fully informed decision?

 

- don't those whose views are not aligned with yours count for something, even if those people are in the minority? (Not saying they are, but let's suppose that they are the minority.)

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

 

He may have suffered enough, but it's good the information is out there. I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together and I wouldn't want to buy books procured in that manner. How about leaving it open as a courtesy to people who buy books and like to be informed? My understanding is he's still doing business? What if I encounter him in a possible business transaction, buy a book, and find out about this later? I don't deserve to own a book I'll feel that way about.

 

Quite.

 

The connection between Mr Schmell and his 'crime' remains...a number of the books he owns were purchased in less than perfect circumstances, and he is not averse to selling them on, either.

 

So it is in the public interest that the origins of these books are made public and they can make choices. Even this is about disclosure. Give the buyers the information and let them choose whether this is something they wish to support.

 

Keeping it all under wraps does nobody any favours other than Mr Schmell...and I'm not convinced he is the one deserving of favours here?

 

Although he clearly deserves to have an award for 'Best Collection'....

[Paratrooper]

I like...

[awe4one]

Actually, I think you guys are both talking about the same thing.

 

No...pressing was talked about separately and as a part of "clean and press" though I'd agree that alot of the time pressing was done in conjunction with cleaning and disassembly...

 

Was the solely pressing procedures we see today common a decade ago? Probably not. But that doesn't mean it isn't still a resto procedure when separated from those that are still commonly seen hobby-wide as restoration...

 

Again...the comic has been purposely manipulated to achieve a desired appearance. Call it resto...call it non-resto if you want (I don't) but it's still taking a virgin comic and changing it from it's true appearance. A comic undergoing this procedure is one I'm not interested in buying and feel I should be told as a customer upfront if known by a dealer. Same with other resto procedures...and that also includes disassembly since they can go in blue labels now...

 

Jim

[Flaming_Telepath]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

 

He may have suffered enough, but it's good the information is out there. I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together and I wouldn't want to buy books procured in that manner. How about leaving it open as a courtesy to people who buy books and like to be informed? My understanding is he's still doing business? What if I encounter him in a possible business transaction, buy a book, and find out about this later? I don't deserve to own a book I'll feel that way about.

 

You can still search and read the thread, no?

 

CW could have searched and read it...but he didn't even know it existed. He does now, and is better informed.

 

We surely can't have a problem with informing the newer members, can we?

[Paratrooper]

I tell ya guys, you're not getting anywhere with this conversation. It's like walking into the wind, nowheres I tells ya, nowheres!

[awe4one]

The Comic Journal article was post CGC and directly pertains to our discussion here.

 

No...the article I'm referring to was definitely before CGC started. 1995-1996 maybe?

 

Jim

[garthgantu]

I think the title of the thread had something to do with it being locked. Doug has suffered enough and they probably did it as a courtesy to him. If that was the Mods motivation then I agree with the move.

 

He may have suffered enough, but it's good the information is out there. I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together and I wouldn't want to buy books procured in that manner. How about leaving it open as a courtesy to people who buy books and like to be informed? My understanding is he's still doing business? What if I encounter him in a possible business transaction, buy a book, and find out about this later? I don't deserve to own a book I'll feel that way about.

 

I think you have to consider the hosts of this message board...they have their own considerations that (from where they sit) supercede the "community-driven dissemination of information" and from time to time they decide that too much information is being disclosed, or the wrong kind of info, etc. Sure, some threads are locked to end disputes between two board members that have devolved into spoony-ness...but others are locked for different reasons.

 

As for why mods do what they do, I don't pretend to understand the reasoning and motives of mods on any boards... but if my influence on the universe largely manifested in some modicum of supervisory authority over a bunch of crazed, funnybook-infatuated loudmouths on a website, I'd be swatting them with a wet towel every now and then just because...