Good Intentions… will they result in the Positive, Unexpected or Negative?

[BronzeBruce13]

Jeff, I think it was clear where you stood with your comment.

I think there was just some initial confusion about where I was coming from when I wanted to explore your comments further. Apparently, I did not compose the verbiage very well in my haste to post before I went to work. I made modifications based on the input almost immediately.

 

In any event, I'm sure everyone now realizes neither of us was/is making an argument against education or disclosure.

 

Hope you don't mind that I ran with your insight.

 

Not responding to anyone in particular here, but just to clarify...

 

My post concerning a possible significant increase in the practice of pressing as a direct result of the public becoming educated about the process was in no way an argument against disclosure or education. I'm no longer a NOD member, but I still fully support both "up-front" disclosure and education of the community in a responsible manner.

[BronzeBruce13]

With no disrespect to those that are overcome with passion on this issue and lose control a bit... but this is supposed to be how adults hash out disagreements and/or explore the unknown... in a civil, respectful manner. No one's perfect at it and no one has never lost their cool, but...

 

 

 

I am both shocked and amazed. Here we have a thread discussing pressing where everyone is considerate. Clearly express their point of view. Read and respond in professional manner. I must say, for me at least, the world seems a little better tonight. I actually mean that. I think it is great to have this type of exchange. Bravo to all the people posting so far.

[nearmint]

Hope you don't mind that I ran with your insight.

 

Not at all.

[Davenport]

 

You speak about a good many things in your reply to my post. But I asked a few simple questions regarding your initial post. Mainly, What types of pressing were you talking about that could not undo damage, and what type of damage were you talking about? So I am confused why you quoted me when your reply did not address much of what I brought up. So.. Based on your last post you are saying if something is undone that was not part of the original printing process it should be disclosed. And THAT was my point I guess.. where is the line drawn?

 

If money is being made?

 

If the book is altered?

 

Where does one draw the line between results and intent?

 

Because if doing things we all do as collectors to tweak our books is not worth disclosing, then why are the various forms of pressing held to a different standard. Both are forms of manipulation aren't they?

 

Mind you, I am not trying to pick a fight, but rather trying to understand what you are getting at.

 

Because it really isn't that simple.

 

 

Ze-

Sorry about that. My reply to you was a broad overview of my opinion, and why.

 

"What types of pressing were you talking about that could not undo damage, and what type of damage were you talking about?"

 

Again, just a general view I have. Relaxing and re-flattening paper doesn't repair paper fibers that have broken, cracked inks, scuffs, abrasions, severe color-breaking creases. Those types of actual physical damage to the paper itself. Does it? If so, how?

Isn't pressing using the traits of flex and movement that paper has to re-flatten it? If paper didn't flex wouldn't pressing break something?

 

"So.. Based on your last post you are saying if something is undone that was not part of the original printing process it should be disclosed. And THAT was my point I guess.. where is the line drawn?"

 

To me the line seems drawn at "alteration". If an alteration was performed, disclose it to whoever you're presenting the book to. Let them decide what it means to them, if anything. "Grade" is about communicating a book's condition, disclosure just fills a gap that "Grade" doesn't fully address. It may take both before the other party fully understands what's being presented. And you can't have a mutual transaction without both parties being equally informed. Right?

[Ze-man]

Fair enough, I think it comes down to some just wanting as much information as possible, even if it does not cover what was previously done,yet unknown to both parties present day. And that is understandable.

 

I guess we will just have to keep talking about the fine line between what a person might do casually to improve a book and perhaps sell it for more money, versus what people perceive to being outright deceived.

 

I personally think they are closer to being the same then others do.

 

But I am tired now, and need to finish up some work before bed.

 

It was fun talking about it with you though, and since we have not resolved this in 2 years, I think we are safe calling it a night without resolution.

 

later

 

Ze-

[BronzeBruce13]

Not to be tooooooo warm and fuzzy... but Kenny and Dav in particular had several well-stated, thought provoking, and insightful exchanges tonight that I enjoyed listening to.

 

Well done lads! Lets continue this weekend... hopefully with the same spirit, and same the respect for opposing viewpoints as demonstrated Friday.

 

[Davenport]

Yeah, calm respectful discussions are fun. Since I already know what *I* think, considering other insightful opinions is where education might creep in.

It's just a sloooooow process.

[Harvey Dude]

... I have also joined the NOD and am likely to deal with other members in the future.

- I will restrict my purchases to a few dealers that I know well and others with great reputations ... . This means that it will be hard for dealers to get me to make a first time purchase. It is also unfortunate for new dealers trying to build a reputation.

 

I'm sure that others will have much different opinions and experiences than I have, but all I can say is that the whole resto/trimming/pressing/resub game has caused me to rethink what and how I collect...Anyone else feel the same?

 

Mike

 

For the most part, the aforementioned portions of you statement apply to me. I am strictly a collector and a member of NOD as I believe high ethical standards should be applied to our hobby. I now pay 9.2 prices for 9.0-9.6 books that appeal to me. I will lose out on many purchases but at least I enjoy my collection for what it is. Chasing uber high grade books just does not appeal to me anymore now that I have learned how some of these high grades have materialized. I will add that I now look for high grade books that appear to be candidates for pressing since they may not have been enhanced to their full potential.

[awe4one]

I guess we will just have to keep talking about the fine line between what a person might do casually to improve a book and perhaps sell it for more money, versus what people perceive to being outright deceived.

 

I personally think they are closer to being the same then others do.

 

If they are selling the comic without disclosure then they are the same. It doesn't rise to the level of deception until the seller fails to disclose the improvements to a buyer...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

I was on the in initial e-mail chain when Jeff made the observation. I think it's a definite concern but not just as a result of the education angle...market forces are going to be a big part of the equation...

 

Speaking as a guy who follows mostly Late-Silver/Bronze Age, I'll be speaking from that POV and probably won't apply to the early Silver and below or Modern markets...

 

I've noticed that 9.4s, and even some 9.6s, are falling out of favor and not commanding the cash we saw two years ago. There are various reasons for this but bottomline it has to do with the quantity of 9+ out there in the market. As a result, it getting to the point where the cost of slabbing is outweighing the selling cost realized. Essentially, it getting to the point of not being worth it to slab. Problem with this scenario is that I believe the HG raw market has also slumped considerably. I doubt the majority of HG sales are reaching guide. Sure there will be some exceptions on the truly hot titles but overall OS prices in NM isn't happening.

 

So bring education into the scenario...

 

People are seeing that manipulated comics can be sold for higher money and are usually looking at older sales as template. They either fall into two groups. One, they are against the practice and scrutinize their buying more carefully or, two, think they can jump on the bandwagon and get some of their higher grade comics pressed. Only problem with the latter group is they can't get a copy pressed to hit a price point acceptable for the price of pressing and slabbing. After losing money a couple times, they quit the effort and go back to buying cheap raw and slabs. And the market continues to fall due to both the drop in slabs and raw as well as those leery of the pressed slabbed market. Disclose openly and you've potentially eliminated the leery collector from being the problem and higher sales may result...

 

Neither scenario looks promising in my opinion and seems to be a vicious cycle. But I'd rather be on the side of the more educated collector is a better collector than one who is naive about certain segments of the hobby...

 

Jim

[Aman619]

or the price slowdown is solely a result of a maturity of the CGC market. A Bronze 9.4 is no longer the high grade of choice. 9.4 initially was thought of as "good enough." But now you need a 9.6 run because its tougher than 9.4s are and still doable with enough copies to go around but not so many as to seem easy.

 

ten years ago, Bronze books were universally thought to be common in HG (NM). We ALL thought so. But then CGC started slabbing and at first, we made assumptions based on the results. Not as many of our NMS were coming back as 9.4s, and a healthy respect grew for the "scarcity" of true NM Bronze books. But, now, 6 years later? Th ecensus has filled out nicely and the numbers keep growing. Now we see that while not EVERY Bronze book is plentiful in HG, that yeah, there really were plenty of them out there after all. Plenty more than SA though where a 9.4 is still good enough to chase.

 

And if the extra copies were caused by pressing alone, then I think we could point to a cause and effect between pressing and prices slacking offf. But I dont see that as the cause, or enough of it anyway. Yet.

[awe4one]

or the price slowdown is solely a result of a maturity of the CGC market. A Bronze 9.4 is no longer the high grade of choice. 9.4 initially was thought of as "good enough." But now you need a 9.6 run because its tougher than 9.4s are and still doable with enough copies to go around but not so many as to seem easy.

 

ten years ago, Bronze books were universally thought to be common in HG (NM). We ALL thought so. But then CGC started slabbing and at first, we made assumptions based on the results. Not as many of our NMS were coming back as 9.4s, and a healthy respect grew for the "scarcity" of true NM Bronze books. But, now, 6 years later? Th ecensus has filled out nicely and the numbers keep growing. Now we see that while not EVERY Bronze book is plentiful in HG, that yeah, there really were plenty of them out there after all. Plenty more than SA though where a 9.4 is still good enough to chase.

 

And if the extra copies were caused by pressing alone, then I think we could point to a cause and effect between pressing and prices slacking offf. But I dont see that as the cause, or enough of it anyway. Yet.

 

I don't see pressing as solely the cause either. Like you said, the slabbed market has matured to an extent where 9.4s are becoming common. It's this maturity that is dictating whether a comic get slabbed or not and whether a comic that is "pressable" is worth the additional expense. It's getting to the point where it's not...but that won't stop people from trying. When they see their mid-HG comic not able to achieve good prices either raw or slabbed then the option of pressing may become more platable...but in most cases probably not cost effective. That won't become known until they actually do so and experience the loss...

 

What that results in is a load of manipulated comics in the marketplace that aren't selling...

 

Again, it's a self defeating cycle and will make original owner comics or those that are proven unmanipulated, more desirable...

 

Jim

[Mr. Zipper]

Excellent inclusion with the "Resistance". I totally overlooked that.

I renumbered your list for you...

 

BTW... How do you see the resistance developing?

 

(1) Indifference (little demand for change/due to they just don't care or unaware of what's going on) 40%

(2) Increased Demand for Disclosure (in significant numbers to make potential impact) 20%

(3) Resistance to disclosure (It's no big deal, none of your business, etc) 20%

(4) Increased Participation in the "Pressing Game" by the "Now Informed" 10%

(5) Spike in "Sell Offs" from Unhappy CGC Collectors / those just disgusted with hobby 10%

 

I see the resistance as people who are happy with the way things are now and don't want to upset the applecart. It could be dealers who fear change may upset their business model, or it could be investors who fear the value of their "stock" going down.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey Jim,

 

Thanks for playing. I'm assuming your post is a "forecast" for the future.

 

I feel pretty strongly that their would be more than the (2) polarized groups you predict, and even more courses of action.

 

This is just "semi-meaningless" speculation, but my guess is there would be "CGC Collectors/Buyers" that fall into these categories:

 

(1a) Those that will be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality that Pressing's place within our hobby is permanent and... has been a long-standing practice, has been widely employed, is virtually undetectable, and therefore beyond regulation. >So they continue on, paying attention only to general market factors to guide their buying and selling (Supply - Demand - Trends - etc.)

 

(1b) Those that will be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality that Pressing's place within our hobby is permanent (etc.)... So they continue on, and modify their buying behavior to varying degrees. >>They will support the concept of disclosure by researching various sellers' history/reps, and also will routinely ask sellers if books they are interested in have been pressed. They will still buy these books however, but will factor in what, if any potential devaluation they consider possible before the purchase.

 

(1c) Those that will be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality that Pressing's place within our hobby is permanent (etc.)... So they continue on, and modify their buying behavior to varying degrees. (etc.) >>They will chose NOT to "knowingly" buy pressed CGC books at all (out of fear of owning a stigmatized item), but will also be content with the CGC books that they own that "may or may not be" pressed so long as the books are not publicly identified as such.

 

(2a) Those that will NOT be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality of Pressing's place within our hobby. > These individuals will join the NOD and/or actively protest the practice in various ways and to varying degrees. They will however, continue to collect CGC comics (both pressed and not) as long as they have been provided with all relevant information to consider before buying.

 

(2b) Those that will NOT be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality of Pressing's place within our hobby. These individuals will join the NOD and/or actively protest the practice in various ways and to varying degrees. > They will however, continue to collect CGC comics that they have concluded have NOT been pressed.

 

() Those that will NOT be "accepting of" and/or "indifferent to" the reality of Pressing's place within our hobby. These individuals will join the NOD and/or actively protest the practice in various ways and to varying degrees. > They will no longer collect CGC comics at all... or even raw comics unless very comfortable with the source.

 

NOTE: There would be too many categories if all the possibilities were itemized. With that in mind, from a "Seller Perspective" (and irrespective of their "Buying Positions" above) each and every member of the above categories is "capable" of both pressing books and also employing a selling philosophy that is in direct conflict with their beliefs and preferences as a buyer. The pursuit of profit and fear of loss will also, without doubt, at least "challenge" ALL CGC Collectors at some level to act consistently with their beliefs/demands as a buyer... when selling. Not just Dealers.

 

I wonder what percentage will be consistent?

 

 

So bring education into the scenario...

People are seeing that manipulated comics can be sold for higher money and are usually looking at older sales as template. They either fall into two groups. One, they are against the practice and scrutinize their buying more carefully or, two, think they can jump on the bandwagon and get some of their higher grade comics pressed. Only problem with the latter group is they can't get a copy pressed to hit a price point acceptable for the price of pressing and slabbing. After losing money a couple times, they quit the effort and go back to buying cheap raw and slabs. And the market continues to fall due to both the drop in slabs and raw as well as those leery of the pressed slabbed market.

[BronzeBruce13]

I'm in agreement with most of this Aman. I don't believe the pressing debate is responsible for current market conditions... even a little bit.

 

I believe the majority portion of the "inevitable correction" has already taken place in the Bronze segment of the market... slowly though, over the past 2+ years. It was just not a "sudden painful bang" as Vince and Gene warned us was a possible.

 

I would also add that I feel there are enough Bronze collectors now, and will be even more going forward ( its our turn now ) which in my view will create and maintain a relatively healthy balance with regards to HG CGC supply and demand.

 

 

 

or the price slowdown is solely a result of a maturity of the CGC market. A Bronze 9.4 is no longer the high grade of choice. 9.4 initially was thought of as "good enough." But now you need a 9.6 run because its tougher than 9.4s are and still doable with enough copies to go around but not so many as to seem easy.

 

ten years ago, Bronze books were universally thought to be common in HG (NM). We ALL thought so. But then CGC started slabbing and at first, we made assumptions based on the results. Not as many of our NMS were coming back as 9.4s, and a healthy respect grew for the "scarcity" of true NM Bronze books. But, now, 6 years later? Th ecensus has filled out nicely and the numbers keep growing. Now we see that while not EVERY Bronze book is plentiful in HG, that yeah, there really were plenty of them out there after all. Plenty more than SA though where a 9.4 is still good enough to chase.

 

And if the extra copies were caused by pressing alone, then I think we could point to a cause and effect between pressing and prices slacking offf. But I dont see that as the cause, or enough of it anyway. Yet.

[BronzeBruce13]

Keep in mind though that CGC recently introduced a "Value Tier" which appears to target "Lower HG" Bronze (9.0 to 9.4) books for "more affordable" submission... Those that are filler and non-key for the most part.

 

Also... I'm not sure I understand... "What that results in is a load of manipulated comics in the marketplace that aren't selling". Are you saying these books will have unreachable reserves set, or will not sell at all for some other reason?

 

 

I don't see pressing as solely the cause either. Like you said, the slabbed market has matured to an extent where 9.4s are becoming common. It's this maturity that is dictating whether a comic get slabbed or not and whether a comic that is "pressable" is worth the additional expense. It's getting to the point where it's not...but that won't stop people from trying. When they see their mid-HG comic not able to achieve good prices either raw or slabbed then the option of pressing may become more platable...but in most cases probably not cost effective. That won't become known until they actually do so and experience the loss... What that results in is a load of manipulated comics in the marketplace that aren't selling...

Again, it's a self defeating cycle and will make original owner comics or those that are proven unmanipulated, more desirable...

Jim

[awe4one]

Also... I'm not sure I understand... "What that results in is a load of manipulated comics in the marketplace that aren't selling". Are you saying these books will have unreachable reserves set, or will not sell at all for some other reason?

 

Sorry I wasn't clear...all slabbed comics will have some liquidity but what will happen is there will be alot of manipulated comics out there that won't be worth even the cost of slabbing. People will try the pressing/slabbing game and quickly see that their comic didn't meet the threshold for making any money back...the current HG game market is making this feasible for only the highest graded copies. What they'll leave is alot of manipulated failed experiments out there in the market...

 

And the recently announced low value tier isn't going to generate increased collector participation until they remove the 30 copy minimum...so it really a non-player at this point...

 

Jim

[awe4one]

NOTE: There would be too many categories if all the possibilities were itemized. With that in mind, from a "Seller Perspective" (and irrespective of their "Buying Positions" above) each and every member of the above categories is "capable" of both pressing books and also employing a selling philosophy that is in direct conflict with their beliefs and preferences as a buyer. The pursuit of profit and fear of loss will also, without doubt, at least "challenge" ALL CGC Collectors at some level to act consistently with their beliefs/demands as a buyer... when selling. Not just Dealers.

 

I agree 100% with this. Just because someone is pressing to sell doesn't mean they are accepting of pressed comics in their personal collection. Hypocritical stance to be sure...and one I wouldn't be surprised to find is already in evidence in the hobby...

 

Jim

[BronzeBruce13]

Understood...

In either scenario, what form of resistance would each group put forth? I can only envision Dealers deciding not to answer pressing related questions stating its a "non-issue". As for Investors, they would have to sell IF they had any real concerns. Outside that... I can't see many other options.

 

 

I see the resistance as people who are happy with the way things are now and don't want to upset the applecart. It could be dealers who fear change may upset their business model, or it could be investors who fear the value of their "stock" going down.

Excellent inclusion with the "Resistance". I totally overlooked that.

I renumbered your list for you... BTW... How do you see the resistance developing?

[BronzeBruce13]

There are many possible scenarios where a given individual may not act consistently with his publicly stated beliefs and pledges.

 

Its also just as possible that a Collector that openly (and publicly) opposes pressing and also pledges full disclosure... will in fact not do so with books only he/she is aware was pressed.

 

Although, difficult to image (because it would be "ballsy" beyond belief to try) such an individual could also seek membership with the NOD to provide cover. It's possible, since professional pressing services won't reveal their client list... or the individual could be doing the pressing themselves.

 

This is another reason why in my view its impossible to regulate something undetectable. How can anyone really know "who is" and "who is not" pressing... regardless of what they say.

 

 

NOTE: There would be too many categories if all the possibilities were itemized. With that in mind, from a "Seller Perspective" (and irrespective of their "Buying Positions" above) each and every member of the above categories is "capable" of both pressing books and also employing a selling philosophy that is in direct conflict with their beliefs and preferences as a buyer. The pursuit of profit and fear of loss will also, without doubt, at least "challenge" ALL CGC Collectors at some level to act consistently with their beliefs/demands as a buyer... when selling. Not just Dealers.

 

I agree 100% with this. Just because someone is pressing to sell doesn't mean they are accepting of pressed comics in their personal collection. Hypocritical stance to be sure...and one I wouldn't be surprised to find is already in evidence in the hobby...

 

Jim