No More Grades, Just BIG NUMBERS!

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I've been watching this with some degree of bemusement for precisely this reason. I can't fathom why some people think the old-style nomenclature and the relatively newer numerical expression represent two different systems. They're exactly the same. The numbers are just another way of expressing precisely the same grades on the scale. Now they differ in people's *interpretation* of the standards, true, and perhaps from one certified company to another or one dealer to another, etc., but within one source, the number and the name are referencing exactly the same state of condition. You can say Near Mint, you can say 9.4. If you're going by, for the sake of argument, the Overstreet standards, there's no difference between a "Near Mint" book and a "9.4" book. You can say either, both or call it "Super-Fruity Excellent" if you want.

[drbanner]

There's one BIG difference Banner. Coins had multiple numerical grades per alpha grade, so abuse was quite obvious. It would be like CGC using NM 9.3, NM 9.4 and NM 9.5. If a listing came up with CGC NM, it could hypothetically be any of three different numerical grades.

 

Exactly, and since people are already abusing the alpha-numeric relationships as I pointed out (and there's currently a one-to-one relationship!), it makes even more sense to adopt one or the other. Thanks for making my point!

[NoImSpartacus]

If I understand your thesis correctly, what you're saying is that initially, the use of combo grades in coin grading led to abuse by unscrupulous sellers, whereas the use of a single grade system (could be alpha, could be numeric, the coin industry went with numeric) helped minimize the potential for abuse, which is exactly what my point was.

 

Thanks...I think?

Hello DrBanner,

Yes, That is exactly what I am trying to say. Sorry if I did not make myself clear as I know I tend to ramble cause of so many thoughts entering the head. As we know from the way many books are scamed or posted one could say they are unscrupulously posted or we could also say that they just dont have enough experience to know better. In Either case, with numeric system, it makes it pretty difficult for anyone to get around to either try and unscupolously advertise their books even if its an honest person that doesnt dont know any better. A 7.5 is a 7.5 and no one need to have to think about wether they are getting VF/NM or NM/NM or whatever. ( I know that if I was a novice, I would find those terms VF/NM or NM/NM very confusing). I know us pure collectors dont like the system being changed but it is one way to combat unscrupulous sellers. Some coin dealers still think they can get away with using terms like Brilliant Uncirculated and not have a grade with it. Sorry, thats all over now. If it doesnt say MS65 then I will not take the chance that Brilliant Uncirc means MS65 and not MS63 to a seller. It does take all the guesswork out of it but it protects my buying.

[ArAich]

You can say either, both or call it "Super-Fruity Excellent" if you want.

 

Super-Fruity Excellent equates to NM- ....

[Lantern]

Why don't they just use roman numerals. Then we could have letters that represent numbers.....it's the best of both worlds.

 

I can see it now : CGC outside-affiliatelinksnotallowedVIII

 

[BronzeBruce13]

...You also ASSUME that your opinions are the BEST/ONLY option...

 

Understand this is not an attack, but an observation...

 

Your statement to 'House above struck a cord with me, for its a characteristic that I always associated with you quite honestly, and was one of the two things about your posts/personality that frustrated me and made it difficult to enjoy the exchanges. You often have quality posts with good information and thought-provoking opinions... but seem less open to acknowledge or consider other's good points. I hope that is no longer the case... and no, I'm not saying you've demonstrated that since you returned...

 

Food for thought if you care.

[ArAich]

I think what is being passed over is that raw books are quite frequently described using both systems...such as VF 8.0 ....but a CGC book should only be denoted as 8.0??? ...

Donut stated that the majority of books are ungraded... yet there is no big stink when a CGC grade is arbitrarily assigned to it...in fact the alpha grade will forever be in use since not all books will be graded by CGC...Does anyone here truly believe that the numeric/only system will be incorporated for the raw market...I don't think so...so why should the alpha be dropped from a CGC label if the majority of books will be graded using the alpha system???

[drbanner]

Good point!

 

Spartacus - are "raw" coins still assigned alpha grades, or their numeric counterpoints? I know the bottom specimens are simply "circulated", but what about raw high-grade or rare coins?

[joe_collector]

They're exactly the same.

 

Here's a test:

 

Near Mint

 

9.4

 

Now look at these closely, and the differences should become quite apparent.

 

My beef is that CGC is pulling a bait-and-switch, and essentially using a format I dislike, but lived with because of the co-presence of alpha grading in their first two labels. With the new label, I feel they simply aren't targetting my demographic or serving my needs as a buyer.

 

Here's a real-world example:

 

A bookstore I used to frequent changed gears and started moving towards children's books. What was once an adult bookstore had more Barney and Telly Tubbies at the front, and the atmosphere shifted noticeably. While they still carried magazines and best-seller novels, I took my business to another bookstore with professional decor and a coffee shop. Since my old haunt was no longer interested in my business or my needs, I chose to not shop there.

 

So if CGC wants to move to a BIG LETTER system for 2-year olds, that's their right, but don't expect me to support the decision or support them monetarily. It's quite obvious they no longer consider buyers like myself important and have moved on to another demographic, apparently one with eyesight and reading difficulties to boot.

[garthgantu]

Either CGC is using Overstreet standards or they aren't. All the articles I've seen after their announcement have been vague and gives the implication of backtracking on CGC's part.

 

The fact that CGC came out and said they were going to use Overstreet rules implies that they weren't using them to begin with........

 

 

Jim

 

CGC doesn't use the OS grading standards, and as far as I can tell, they never will. Why? Because Overstreet factors paper quality (as one example) into the book's overall grade; according to Overstreet, a NM book can't have brown pages. This is diametrically counter to the way CGC grades, breaking out the paper quality almost as though the paper in question isn't part of the book being graded.

 

You can agree or disagree on whether paper quality should be incorporated into a comic's overall grade - but the bottom line is, CGC does this differently from Overstreet, and always will.

[joe_collector]

Exactly, and since people are already abusing the alpha-numeric relationships as I pointed out (and there's currently a one-to-one relationship!), it makes even more sense to adopt one or the other. Thanks for making my point!

 

But it only becomes a solution if CGC 9.3 and 9.5 grades actually existed. Do you know something we don't?

[awe4one]

[You can agree or disagree on whether paper quality should be incorporated into a comic's overall grade - but the bottom line is, CGC does this differently from Overstreet, and always will.

 

Thanks for making my point. CGC does not use Overstreet standards but came out with a press release saying they will use the standard. Which is it? They either are or aren't. Their clarification after the press release has been vague at best.

 

 

Jim

[FlyingDonut]

How many comic books in America are sold that are CGC slabbed vs. non-slabbed?

 

Easily less than 1%, but who cares? I buy select CGC books, and it's those I do care about.

 

Once the second Blue Lable books dry up, I guess I'm just about done.

 

Easily less than 1%, but who cares? I buy select CGC books, and it's those I do care about.

 

Finally. The reason for this entire sturm und drang comes out.

[FlyingDonut]

They're exactly the same.

 

Here's a test:

 

Near Mint

 

9.4

 

Now look at these closely, and the differences should become quite apparent.

 

My beef is that CGC is pulling a bait-and-switch, and essentially using a format I dislike, but lived with because of the co-presence of alpha grading in their first two labels. With the new label, I feel they simply aren't targetting my demographic or serving my needs as a buyer.

 

Here's a real-world example:

 

A bookstore I used to frequent changed gears and started moving towards children's books. What was once an adult bookstore had more Barney and Telly Tubbies at the front, and the atmosphere shifted noticeably. While they still carried magazines and best-seller novels, I took my business to another bookstore with professional decor and a coffee shop. Since my old haunt was no longer interested in my business or my needs, I chose to not shop there.

 

So if CGC wants to move to a BIG LETTER system for 2-year olds, that's their right, but don't expect me to support the decision or support them monetarily. It's quite obvious they no longer consider buyers like myself important and have moved on to another demographic, apparently one with eyesight and reading difficulties to boot.

 

don't expect me to support the decision or support them monetarily. Then don't, and stop with all of this. Please.

[BronzeBruce13]

Here's a test:

Near Mint

9.4

Now look at these closely, and the differences should become quite apparent.

 

My beef is that CGC is pulling a bait-and-switch, and essentially using a format I dislike, but lived with because of the co-presence of alpha grading in their first two labels. With the new label, I feel they simply aren't targetting my demographic or serving my needs as a buyer.

 

Here's a real-world example:

 

A bookstore I used to frequent changed gears and started moving towards children's books. What was once an adult bookstore had more Barney and Telly Tubbies at the front, and the atmosphere shifted noticeably. While they still carried magazines and best-seller novels, I took my business to another bookstore with professional decor and a coffee shop. Since my old haunt was no longer interested in my business or my needs, I chose to not shop there.

 

So if CGC wants to move to a BIG LETTER system for 2-year olds, that's their right, but don't expect me to support the decision or support them monetarily. It's quite obvious they no longer consider buyers like myself important and have moved on to another demographic, apparently one with eyesight and reading difficulties to boot.

 

.. but the store "still" was taking care of your "needs" in your example...or did I miss something?

 

As for the "big letter" system, if nothing else, I think its clear it benefits the potential sale of a CGC books at conventions... and also helps online buyers discern the grade clearer in auctions. Can you see any value in that, even if you don't like other aspects of it?

 

Also, If the number was enlarged for the above reasons and the nomenclature remained...would you still have a beef with the new label? if so, what would be your complaint in that instance?

 

...just trying to fully understand your complete gripe.

 

 

 

[joe_collector]

Finally. The reason for this entire sturm und drang comes out.

 

So it's a big surprise that I care about changes to the new CGC label because I buy CGC comics?

 

Wow, what a newsflash!!

[FlyingDonut]

Finally. The reason for this entire sturm und drang comes out.

 

So it's a big surprise that I care about changes to the new CGC label because I buy CGC comics?

 

Wow, what a newsflash!!

 

You've started TWO 200 post threads because YOU don't like what CGC did to their label. Well, great. You don't like it. We've got it. Don't buy any. I'm quite positive the loss of your revenue will not cause CGC to lose much sleep.

 

Your rant boils down to "I don't like the new label." OK. I don't either. There is NO giant conspiracy to fleece anybody. They just changed the design of their label.

 

Now can we all move on, please? In the words of Bugaboo from up top. "Get Over it."

[joe_collector]

.. but the store "still" was taking care of your "needs" in your example...or did I miss something?

 

It's all to do with perceptions and target market. If a business changes the rules, shifts their marketing strategy or changes how they do business towards a younger/older/dumber clientele, then I support a new business that serves my needs better.

 

I'm a whitey, but this is actually quite common in the ethnic communities, and if a business makes it hard on visible minorities or doesn't carry their preferred products, then no one shops there. Trust me on this one.

 

Also, If the number was enlarged for the above reasons and the nomenclature remained...would you still have a beef with the new label? if so, what would be your complaint in that instance?

 

I would still think it's ugly, but I wouldn't have a gripe about it, and probably wouldn't have make a reappearance on the CGC forums.

 

At a very base level, the abrupt deletion of the Alpha Grade struck me as an abrogation of the silent agreement between myself and CGC, and has caused me to not bid on any of their BIG LETTER books.

 

It's no different with any business. Kick a customer in the groin and they won't come back.

[PovertyRow]

Analogy between coins and comics.

 

Correct me if I be wrong, please! But don't coins STILL use an alpha/numeric grading system? Don't they still use slab coins as AU 58, XF 40, VF 30 etc?

 

 

[musicmeta]

Put the alpha grade under the big number grade and I no longer have a complaint.

The alpha grade can be the same size as the old blue label. CGC should not have removed the alpha grade...PERIOD!! It is giving the person LESS information then he had before and DOES NOT create confusion since the numeric grade and the alpha grade are equivalent. Again, I ask, WHY TAKE THE ALPHA GRADE OFF!! It makes no sense.