100 Greatest Comic Books

[Robert Beerbohm]

I wonder if Julie Schwartz and crew used this long running Dime Novel to come up with a certain DC title.

 

[Robert Beerbohm]

This character was immensely popular - this one is from 1905

 

[Robert Beerbohm]

And here is a title maybe Jack Kirby and Joe Simon remembered from their youth - this #36 is from 1905

 

[Zonker]

This is from Jerry Wiest's recent book and it included input from 44 fans, historians, creators, and dealers. Your mileage may vary; mine does.

 

The placement of FF#1 is enough to make some heads explode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait a second while I save the image for use in a future round of Comics General's Silver Age Survivor.

[Silver Surfer]

While I understand your point, I just don't see it. Cap 1 yes, but not Marvel 1. Marvel 1 is a great big book, but influence? Not so much - I see it as sort of the bridge between pulps and what would become Timely.

 

Understanding that influence is probably a vague term. Amazing 129 (first Punisher) is, in my opinion, much more influential than Marvel 1 because the "grim and gritty" Punisher character has done much more across the board to change comics over the past 30 years than Marvel 1 did.

 

I'm more of a "what have you done for me now" guy when it comes to influence - I always vote for All-Stars based on first half performance.

 

I'd put Marvel 1, Zap 1 and a bunch of other books in the next 25.

 

Wow Donut I hold you in high regard but I'm having trouble trying to agreed with your comment about MC#1 not having great infleunce. Also, I'd say Marvel Mystery Comics #9 has to rank way up there. Probably one of the first ever issues (if not the first) where we see two main superhero's slugging it out and the cover is defintely a top 10 GA book in my mind.

[FlyingDonut]

While I understand your point, I just don't see it. Cap 1 yes, but not Marvel 1. Marvel 1 is a great big book, but influence? Not so much - I see it as sort of the bridge between pulps and what would become Timely.

 

Understanding that influence is probably a vague term. Amazing 129 (first Punisher) is, in my opinion, much more influential than Marvel 1 because the "grim and gritty" Punisher character has done much more across the board to change comics over the past 30 years than Marvel 1 did.

 

I'm more of a "what have you done for me now" guy when it comes to influence - I always vote for All-Stars based on first half performance.

 

I'd put Marvel 1, Zap 1 and a bunch of other books in the next 25.

 

Wow Donut I hold you in high regard but I'm having trouble trying to agreed with your comment about MC#1 not having great infleunce. Also, I'd say Marvel Mystery Comics #9 has to rank way up there. Probably one of the first ever issues (if not the first) where we see two main superhero's slugging it out and the cover is defintely a top 10 GA book in my mind.

 

No doubt that Marvel 1 and Marvel Mystery 9 are great books, and should be in the top-10 Golden Age books, but that wasn't what this list was - this was "influence", and Marvel 1, again, while a great book, just didn't have the lasting impact the others did - that's btw, why I edited it to put Captain America 1 in there.

[Robert Beerbohm]

Bit i will ka-bitz here a bit that the concept referred to here is nothing more than "modern" Dime Novel format with some colored pick-turs added in

 

Bob, you lost me here. What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Is it in favor or against attaching importance to FoP?

 

I was commenting on the the format not being so revolutionary, is all

 

The Eastern Color ocmic books 1933-1935 definitely set the formula in motion to a point

 

I keep in mind that New Fun tab format followed the COMIC CUTS tab format, one says NEW FUN is the "first" DC/National comic book, yet it does not fit the FoP farmat.

 

This whole thought pattern re FoP, Action #1, etc is quite silly to me as nothing here was "invented" out of a vaccuum - The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck is the first comic book published and printed in America -

 

and Dime Novels were all over the place beginning in the mid 1860s and continuing into at least the mid 1920s - slick color covers, two staples, and pulp paper wrap around contents

[Robert Beerbohm]

and i was invited by Jerry Weist to participate in this project, but declined at the time. Glad i did, cuz the results were weighted by people's votes, albeit the judges in this passion play are not hung up on super heroes being the be-all, end-all of comic book importance - that is why one sees what one does in this listing

 

and i real good reason to stay out of this food fight

 

but i will step in from time to time out of the peanut gallery

[Theagenes]

and i was invited by Jerry Weist to participate in this project, but declined at the time. Glad i did, cuz the results were weighted by people's votes, albeit the judges in this passion play are not hung up on super heroes being the be-all, end-all of comic book importance - that is why one sees what one does in this listing

 

and i real good reason to stay out of this food fight

 

but i will step in from time to time out of the peanut gallery

 

Bummer, because I would love to hear your opinons. I think you've made a very good case in the past about the superhero genre being too heavily weighted and I would love to see what your list of the top modern (i.e. beginning of the comic magazine era to pres. ) comic books looks like. I know you'd probably have Zap up there, but what about Mickey Mouse Mag. or WDC&S or other non superhero books?

 

Jeff

[Theagenes]

BTW, those dime novels are very cool!

[Crowzilla]

And here is a title maybe Jack Kirby and Joe Simon remembered from their youth - this #36 is from 1905

 

Considering this title dates from 12 years before Kirby was even born, do you really think he ever saw a copy?

[Robert Beerbohm]

an invitation for some sarcasm my end might be in order (but i won't) - in that, some how i got copies of the Dime Novel Red Raven series - and have maybe 100-150 Dime Novels (and maybe half a dozen other Red Ravens), all diff kinds of titles & genres, and i was only born in 1952

 

There used to be a Dime Novel Fandom replete with conventions, fanzines, auctions, price guides, etc - the whole nine yarsd we have today - i have some of this stuff as well

 

this be a silly query, methinks

 

i would think as a back issue, of course Kirby would have seen older things before he was born - no different than you or i have seen things, much less own, material printed before we wuz born

[Robert Beerbohm]

and i was invited by Jerry Weist to participate in this project, but declined at the time. Glad i did, cuz the results were weighted by people's votes, albeit the judges in this passion play are not hung up on super heroes being the be-all, end-all of comic book importance - that is why one sees what one does in this listing

 

and i real good reason to stay out of this food fight

 

but i will step in from time to time out of the peanut gallery

 

Bummer, because I would love to hear your opinons. I think you've made a very good case in the past about the superhero genre being too heavily weighted and I would love to see what your list of the top modern (i.e. beginning of the comic magazine era to pres. ) comic books looks like. I know you'd probably have Zap up there, but what about Mickey Mouse Mag. or WDC&S or other non superhero books?

 

Jeff

 

Yo Jeff

 

long time no talk, here we are:

 

I like the work of at least a thousand comics creators - i could not place them into a list with some #1 favorite - no more so could i manufacture an entirely subjective listings of which comic book is more important, most important, etc as it all, in my eyes, at least, evolves over time - nothing comes out of a vaccuum, thin air, without having previous generations popular culture coming into play when a "Next Generation" creator comes along

 

or titles

 

MAD, ZAP, WDCS - surely, very important comic book magazines, to be sure.

 

Superman comes from Popeye, ERB's Tarzan & John Carter of Mars and so many other popular culture sources Jerry & Joe gleaned & absorbed as children growing up

 

WDCS stands as the highest circulation comic book with only one cover per issue number topping out over 4 million an issue - Action #1 debuts the super hero genre.

 

MAD is MAD - it spawns ZAP in some circles

 

ZAP's importance is it led the re-emergence of creators rights getting a piece of the pie

 

It all goes back to Wilson & Co's 1842 printing of Obadiah OIdbuck

 

America's First Comic Book

[Socratic Wonder]

And here is a title maybe Jack Kirby and Joe Simon remembered from their youth - this #36 is from 1905

 

 

Wow Robert!

 

I have never seen those 5 cent Red Raven novels beofre!

 

I love the art on them

[Theagenes]

and i was invited by Jerry Weist to participate in this project, but declined at the time. Glad i did, cuz the results were weighted by people's votes, albeit the judges in this passion play are not hung up on super heroes being the be-all, end-all of comic book importance - that is why one sees what one does in this listing

 

and i real good reason to stay out of this food fight

 

but i will step in from time to time out of the peanut gallery

 

Bummer, because I would love to hear your opinons. I think you've made a very good case in the past about the superhero genre being too heavily weighted and I would love to see what your list of the top modern (i.e. beginning of the comic magazine era to pres. ) comic books looks like. I know you'd probably have Zap up there, but what about Mickey Mouse Mag. or WDC&S or other non superhero books?

 

Jeff

 

Yo Jeff

 

long time no talk, here we are:

 

I like the work of at least a thousand comics creators - i could not place them into a list with some #1 favorite - no more so could i manufacture an entirely subjective listings of which comic book is more important, most important, etc as it all, in my eyes, at least, evolves over time - nothing comes out of a vaccuum, thin air, without having previous generations popular culture coming into play when a "Next Generation" creator comes along

 

or titles

 

MAD, ZAP, WDCS - surely, very important comic book magazines, to be sure.

 

Superman comes from Popeye, ERB's Tarzan & John Carter of Mars and so many other popular culture sources Jerry & Joe gleaned & absorbed as children growing up

 

WDCS stands as the highest circulation comic book with only one cover per issue number topping out over 4 million an issue - Action #1 debuts the super hero genre.

 

MAD is MAD - it spawns ZAP in some circles

 

ZAP's importance is it led the re-emergence of creators rights getting a piece of the pie

 

It all goes back to Wilson & Co's 1842 printing of Obadiah OIdbuck

 

America's First Comic Book

 

[Scrooge]

Bit i will ka-bitz here a bit that the concept referred to here is nothing more than "modern" Dime Novel format with some colored pick-turs added in

 

Bob, you lost me here. What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Is it in favor or against attaching importance to FoP?

 

I was commenting on the the format not being so revolutionary, is all

 

The Eastern Color ocmic books 1933-1935 definitely set the formula in motion to a point

 

I keep in mind that New Fun tab format followed the COMIC CUTS tab format, one says NEW FUN is the "first" DC/National comic book, yet it does not fit the FoP farmat.

 

This whole thought pattern re FoP, Action #1, etc is quite silly to me as nothing here was "invented" out of a vaccuum - The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck is the first comic book published and printed in America -

 

and Dime Novels were all over the place beginning in the mid 1860s and continuing into at least the mid 1920s - slick color covers, two staples, and pulp paper wrap around contents

 

Gotcha. In fact, I'm reading Volume 1 of Robert Sampson Yesterday's Figures: A Study of Series Characters in the Early Pulp Magazines: Glory Figures so I am completely immersed in dime novels this week anyway from Jesse James to Buffalo Bill to Nick Carter to Frank & Merriwell to the Rough Riders and Young Wild West and how they presage the single character pulps of the '30's (and of course, the comics in all its genres). All very interesting reading.

 

Actually thanks for posting your examples. Perfect timing!

[Crowzilla]

an invitation for some sarcasm my end might be in order (but i won't) - in that, some how i got copies of the Dime Novel Red Raven series...

There used to be a Dime Novel Fandom replete with conventions, fanzines, auctions, price guides, etc - the whole nine yarsd we have today - i have some of this stuff as well

 

No, it was a serious question as in just because you might collect these do you really think he did?

It goes without saying that things exist from before you were born (though maybe in the case of an old guy like you, just barely )

But lots of people work in a field, or are fans of a genre and just keep up with what is contemporary. So I ask do you know that he collected these, or even ever saw one?

Perhaps it's a better question for Evanier.

[Robert Beerbohm]

Here are some more - they look like "funny books"on the outside and had every bit as much action and adventure with a lot of detectives having more fun marveling at the mystery of it all

 

There are a zillion titles out there in the naked city - this is but a few of their stories

 

[adamstrange]

While interesting (nothing like a good pirate or revolutionary war story to get the blood pumping ), I would suggest these pulps belong in our pulp thread or the OO vs Action 1 thread. The topic at hand is the most important comic books and not the 100 most important pre-cursor states in the evolution of comics starting with Gilgamesh, though that might make for a fun thread. Squinting as hard as I might these don't look like comics. As always, your mileage may vary.

[Robert Beerbohm]

an invitation for some sarcasm my end might be in order (but i won't) - in that, some how i got copies of the Dime Novel Red Raven series...

There used to be a Dime Novel Fandom replete with conventions, fanzines, auctions, price guides, etc - the whole nine yarsd we have today - i have some of this stuff as well

 

No, it was a serious question as in just because you might collect these do you really think he did?

It goes without saying that things exist from before you were born (though maybe in the case of an old guy like you, just barely )

But lots of people work in a field, or are fans of a genre and just keep up with what is contemporary. So I ask do you know that he collected these, or even ever saw one?

Perhaps it's a better question for Evanier.

 

I was being sarcastic in the first place, by suggesting any sort of heresy that Jack K never looked at other material for reference. In my original post, i might not have been too clear, if not, my apologies, as my intent is never to start any sort of flame scenarios.

 

With as wide a frame of reference Jack brought into his work over the decades, my educated guess is he looked at a wide body of material, both "old" and "new", which is to say, what is old is new again.

 

I have been aware of Dime Novels for many decades now - for Jack not to be cuz he did not look at old stuff, as has been suggested as a possibility, strikes me as nigh-impossible. I think he would have at least looked at stuff in used book and magazine stores, which is how most comics collectors and creators with vision i know like to spend at least part of their time.

 

Well, i have to say at least before the advent of eBay, which has altered the land scape of our hobby turned business in the last decade and we can never go back again, and that is OK by me

 

In the "old days" one had to hunt thru establishments which specialized in back issue stuff - and one some times could find treasures for a pittance thru diligence and a bit of luck, i found zillions of items that way for many years. Now it all goes on eBay - or shows up at San Diego Comicon.

 

 

I guess it was OK Julie Schwartz or other DC-worker-bees saw the Brave & Bold dime novel, like the sample i posted, to use later in the DC comic book title of the same name.

 

One can see that the Major W-N and Harry Donenfeld, for a while there partners in the comic book titles till right before the dawn of a new super hero phenom, short lived as it was in the main confined to less than a decade, some say just till 1945 and then the super types lost their bearings for a decade and a half, there abouts

 

Still, Jack is on record in interviews including questions from me dating as far back as 1970 when a lot of us began encountering Jack & Roz at comicons all over the country. I have my own one on one encounters with The Man Who Built The House of Marvel (with an assist from his former employee Steve Ditko).

 

That record includes talking about the pulps and the dime novels of the day - he also loved the Gernsback SF mags from whence he drew inspiration for the pre hero monster covers and stories - Frank R Paul, Wesso, etc - i drank it all in

 

I personally think that since DNs were considered very low brow entertainment, the first comic book publishers wished to dis-associate them selves from such harrassed juvenile fare

 

Hence, the story of simply folding down a Sunday section to "comic book" magazine size only goes so far in my estimation.

 

I think they were ALL shaped by the Dime Novel format, which had begun 1864 and continued for some 80 years gasping dead by the early 1930s, which saw a frenzy for them which burned lwer as the populaton which grew up on them died out

 

By "they" i mean every one connected with the comic book industry" publishers, editors, artists, writers, letterers, etc etc ec - every one who grew up in America was exposed to Dime Novels in a serious way.

 

No TV, No Radio, No Movies, only scattered comic strips, but still a strong presence from the 1840s onwards thru the creation of The Yellow Kid in all its incarnations by Richard F Outcault.

 

Over the years i had many opportunities to talk with Jack - many of us did as he gave freely to all of us, i bought 100 pages of his comic book art from him & Roz - they came to me to ask me if i was interested - back oh about 1978 or so

 

There are many artists who only have to look at something once and they can recall it well enough to translate their vision of it onto paper - Jack was definitely in that category, if you ask me. I am a huge Jack Kirby fan - i hope you realize that ?

 

best