Game: BRONZE AGE SURVIVOR SERIES- Round 1

[Point Five]

I'm not sure what the reason is, but unlike the SA survivor thread, the votes are very spread out. I wonder why there doesn't appear to be any clear loser.

 

It's funny, but I could have voted off a fair number of the books on the list...I'm practically flipping a coin to pick just one. About half of them I really like, and about half of them do nothing for me (& no, it's not a clear DC/Marvel split or anything like that). Maybe it helps to have more nostalgia for some of these mid-70s minor keys than I do? Wonder if anyone else feels the same way...

 

 

[mar-vell]

MTU #1 is my choice. Never liked that mag but there are many books that don't mean much too me on this list.

[Mac Man]

No, I hear you Jon- I really like about half of them, and the other half I have little to no interest in. And Thirdgreenham, I'm sure there was some good stuff there-- it's just the little bit that I did see way back when never really caught my attention.

[JohnT]

I'm surprised at all the votes New Gods has received. Kirby's move to DC was one of those events that signified the Silver Age was well and truly over.

 

 

Could this be the all-time most polarizing series ever? Not the best or the worst, but the one that produces the most over-the-top-divergent opinions amongst readers. Those that love the books really love the books. Those that hate 'em, hate 'em with a passion.

I'm not a fan of the series either. The art during the early part of the 4th World books was decent, and the concept was very cool. But Kirby's writing was horrific and provides the best evidence that Stan Lee fully deserves credit for the success of Marvel.

 

Having said all that, Kirby's move to DC, and getting the greenlight to create a whole new concept, was one of the big events that demarcated the end of the SA and the beginning of the BA. Love it or hate it, New Gods is still a significant book for this reason.

 

Amen brother! I love Kirby, but when he got on his own at DC and was given total creative control, well, his stuff wasn't terrible, but there was no characterization, no hint of the Marvel realism, humor, and pathos that made Marvel so special. To me, this is the strongest evidence that Stan Lee deserves the bulk of the credit for the Marvel Age. Yes, Kirby was a great creative element of the Marvel Age, and no one translated Stan's plots onto the page like Kirby, but he didn't "create" any of the great Marvel characters. That was Stan Lee. Sorry for the off topic rant...

[JohnT]

feel free to send me some Hex so I can change my mind

 

Jonah Hex was an ultra-cool character in the BA. Just because people haven't read him, doesn't mean he wasn't great. I still remember the thrill of discovering this series back when it was coming out. I was the only one of my friends who bought WWT's, and they thought I was crazy. I have no idea how I first got a copy...it's not like I was looking for a western, that's for sure! But it captured my imagination. What a great hero...

 

 

 

 

[JohnT]

Marvel Premiere . . . *yawn*

 

+1

 

Either you haven't read the Warlock saga, or you don't know what makes an excellent comic. This was definitely one of the top 5 BA events...

[Mac Man]

Still... the name of the game is to (as JC said) "The rules are like the participants, extremely simple, so just vote for the comic book you think is least important/influential/cool/whatever, and want to see taken off the list."

 

So while Jonah Hex may very well be cool, I defer to the rules as laid down by the boss

[Aman619]

Amen brother! I love Kirby, but when he got on his own at DC and was given total creative control, well, his stuff wasn't terrible, but there was no characterization, no hint of the Marvel realism, humor, and pathos that made Marvel so special. To me, this is the strongest evidence that Stan Lee deserves the bulk of the credit for the Marvel Age. Yes, Kirby was a great creative element of the Marvel Age, and no one translated Stan's plots onto the page like Kirby, but he didn't "create" any of the great Marvel characters. That was Stan Lee. Sorry for the off topic rant...

 

I agree with your conclusions about Stan's dominant contributions to Marvel's SA... But not with your chain of events. Stan stopped plotting early on. Jack was doing the plotting by taking Stan's editorial input upfront ("Next issue, Doom comes back") and Jack "wrote" the story, worked out the sequence of events, and even added major new characters (Silver Surfer). So it wasnt as you put it. And as for who created the characters? Well, there was input all around. Stan didnt "create" them. Nor did Jack. The early creations were pure collaborations of the team.

 

But, Stan wasnt a freeloader, and IMO, gave the greatest piece of the Marvel Age: He gave the characters (whatever their powers or origins) LIFE! He put the words in their mouths. He was their personality, and more, the voice of the entire Marvel movement thru the bullpen pages that lured so many readers and fans in a way they never were by DC or anyone else. He invited them INTO the Marvel clubhouse.

 

So, while Jack carried the creative load for the stories he drew and the new villains and other new characters, it was Stan who saw the big picture!

 

IMO the Marvel Age doesnt happen at all without both of them

[Jungle_Junkie]

feel free to send me some Hex so I can change my mind

 

Jonah Hex was an ultra-cool character in the BA. Just because people haven't read him, doesn't mean he wasn't great. I still remember the thrill of discovering this series back when it was coming out. I was the only one of my friends who bought WWT's, and they thought I was crazy. I have no idea how I first got a copy...it's not like I was looking for a western, that's for sure! But it captured my imagination. What a great hero...

 

 

 

 

hey John, have you got any particular issue that stands out in your mind ? might pick up a VG copy next time I place an order with a US dealer and see what the low down is.

 

never really been into Westerns/Cowboys - films,comics or books.

 

I guess it all relates too being bored sense less watching Bonaza on Sundays when nothing else was on !

 

 

[Aces]

Looks like I'm the only guy that voted for:

 

Batman 234 (First BA Two-Face)

 

Basicly I picked about a half dozen books that I thought were bottom self and went eny-meny-miny-moe. Based on the voting most of my other bottom self books were on the mark. New Gods1, ASW 10, etc...

 

Anyone want to convince me why Bats 234 isn't?

I'm not a hater of the book but I thought a non-true first appearance doesn't amount to much.

 

[JohnT]

Amen brother! I love Kirby, but when he got on his own at DC and was given total creative control, well, his stuff wasn't terrible, but there was no characterization, no hint of the Marvel realism, humor, and pathos that made Marvel so special. To me, this is the strongest evidence that Stan Lee deserves the bulk of the credit for the Marvel Age. Yes, Kirby was a great creative element of the Marvel Age, and no one translated Stan's plots onto the page like Kirby, but he didn't "create" any of the great Marvel characters. That was Stan Lee. Sorry for the off topic rant...

 

I agree with your conclusions about Stan's dominant contributions to Marvel's SA... But not with your chain of events. Stan stopped plotting early on. Jack was doing the plotting by taking Stan's editorial input upfront ("Next issue, Doom comes back") and Jack "wrote" the story, worked out the sequence of events, and even added major new characters (Silver Surfer). So it wasnt as you put it. And as for who created the characters? Well, there was input all around. Stan didnt "create" them. Nor did Jack. The early creations were pure collaborations of the team.

 

But, Stan wasnt a freeloader, and IMO, gave the greatest piece of the Marvel Age: He gave the characters (whatever their powers or origins) LIFE! He put the words in their mouths. He was their personality, and more, the voice of the entire Marvel movement thru the bullpen pages that lured so many readers and fans in a way they never were by DC or anyone else. He invited them INTO the Marvel clubhouse.

 

So, while Jack carried the creative load for the stories he drew and the new villains and other new characters, it was Stan who saw the big picture!

 

IMO the Marvel Age doesnt happen at all without both of them

 

Yes, you are right all the way around. When I said create characters, I had more in mind what you are talking about, bringing them to life through the written word, rather than coming up with the character's names, powers, apperance, etc. And I shouldn't have said "plot." You're right, as time went on Stan didn't write all the plots, although my understanding is conversations about plots usually consisted of a lot more than "Doom comes back."

 

My main point is that when Kirby went to DC, the characters lacked that "life," as you put it. The dialogue and narrative was stilted, the characters all seemed one-dimensional, etc.

[JohnT]

feel free to send me some Hex so I can change my mind

 

Jonah Hex was an ultra-cool character in the BA. Just because people haven't read him, doesn't mean he wasn't great. I still remember the thrill of discovering this series back when it was coming out. I was the only one of my friends who bought WWT's, and they thought I was crazy. I have no idea how I first got a copy...it's not like I was looking for a western, that's for sure! But it captured my imagination. What a great hero...

 

 

 

 

hey John, have you got any particular issue that stands out in your mind ? might pick up a VG copy next time I place an order with a US dealer and see what the low down is.

 

never really been into Westerns/Cowboys - films,comics or books.

 

I guess it all relates too being bored sense less watching Bonaza on Sundays when nothing else was on !

 

 

It's been a long time since I read them. In general, I'd try the early Weird Western Tales issues, for example 17-29, somewhere in there. I just reread 17 and it's a good read!

[Zonker]

1st denny o'neil & Neal Adams together on tec 395

 

ah sooo! so maybe its listing should say that... : )

thats a bit more important than just Adams art... but, do we similarly exalt ALL writer/artist pairings even when the story is nothing special? How about

first Lee/Kirby

first Lee/Ditko

first whoever/himever...

 

I may be wrong, but two creators still have to create something memorable storywise or character wise for the issue in question to be "special", doesnt it?

 

The memorable aspect to me is the final nail in the coffin for the Adam West mid-1960s style Batman, i.e. no more Robin, Batmobile, Bat-cave, Bat-this, Bat-that. There had been a few previous attempts to get the Batman back to his roots (by writers Bob Kanigher and Frank Robbins), and indeed Robin had departed for college a month or two previous, but Adams & O'Neil created the template for the much more serious 1970s Batman style, and the story in #395 in particular was a horror-themed one, also in keeping with the trends of the incoming decade (1970s) rather than the previous one.

[Aman619]

1st denny o'neil & Neal Adams together on tec 395

 

ah sooo! so maybe its listing should say that... : )

thats a bit more important than just Adams art... but, do we similarly exalt ALL writer/artist pairings even when the story is nothing special? How about

first Lee/Kirby

first Lee/Ditko

first whoever/himever...

 

I may be wrong, but two creators still have to create something memorable storywise or character wise for the issue in question to be "special", doesnt it?

 

The memorable aspect to me is the final nail in the coffin for the Adam West mid-1960s style Batman, i.e. no more Robin, Batmobile, Bat-cave, Bat-this, Bat-that. There had been a few previous attempts to get the Batman back to his roots (by writers Bob Kanigher and Frank Robbins), and indeed Robin had departed for college a month or two previous, but Adams & O'Neil created the template for the much more serious 1970s Batman style, and the story in #395 in particular was a horror-themed one, also in keeping with the trends of the incoming decade (1970s) rather than the previous one.

 

hmmmm.. all good ideas expressed zonk. this issue certainly was a a step in the right direction which got stronger and climaxed in later key issues. Im honestly not sure all of that still elevates this issue all that much higher, especially sonce none of us have really focussed on it as an important issue til very recently. but, you make a good case!

 

[Aman619]

Amen brother! I love Kirby, but when he got on his own at DC and was given total creative control, well, his stuff wasn't terrible, but there was no characterization, no hint of the Marvel realism, humor, and pathos that made Marvel so special. To me, this is the strongest evidence that Stan Lee deserves the bulk of the credit for the Marvel Age. Yes, Kirby was a great creative element of the Marvel Age, and no one translated Stan's plots onto the page like Kirby, but he didn't "create" any of the great Marvel characters. That was Stan Lee. Sorry for the off topic rant...

 

I agree with your conclusions about Stan's dominant contributions to Marvel's SA... But not with your chain of events. Stan stopped plotting early on. Jack was doing the plotting by taking Stan's editorial input upfront ("Next issue, Doom comes back") and Jack "wrote" the story, worked out the sequence of events, and even added major new characters (Silver Surfer). So it wasnt as you put it. And as for who created the characters? Well, there was input all around. Stan didnt "create" them. Nor did Jack. The early creations were pure collaborations of the team.

 

But, Stan wasnt a freeloader, and IMO, gave the greatest piece of the Marvel Age: He gave the characters (whatever their powers or origins) LIFE! He put the words in their mouths. He was their personality, and more, the voice of the entire Marvel movement thru the bullpen pages that lured so many readers and fans in a way they never were by DC or anyone else. He invited them INTO the Marvel clubhouse.

 

So, while Jack carried the creative load for the stories he drew and the new villains and other new characters, it was Stan who saw the big picture!

 

IMO the Marvel Age doesnt happen at all without both of them

 

Yes, you are right all the way around. When I said create characters, I had more in mind what you are talking about, bringing them to life through the written word, rather than coming up with the character's names, powers, apperance, etc. And I shouldn't have said "plot." You're right, as time went on Stan didn't write all the plots, although my understanding is conversations about plots usually consisted of a lot more than "Doom comes back."

 

My main point is that when Kirby went to DC, the characters lacked that "life," as you put it. The dialogue and narrative was stilted, the characters all seemed one-dimensional, etc.

 

glad we are on the same page. The same thing happens to me when I post with fewer words rather than many and the ones I choose are open to misinterpretation.

 

we both agree that Jacks DC work was not as good as his Marvel collaborations., and, contrary to Jacks plans to bury Marvel and especially Stan with his Fourth World saga, and prove to one and all Who was Marvels Daddy! - - - that what the DC books really proved to all but Jacks most ardent fans was how much greater they were as a team than working solo.

[TeddieMercede]

Theres been a couple posts made regarding the All Star Western 10, the New Gods 1, and the ASM 101 but not that much regarding the Astonishing Tales 25. I mean honestly can someone even try and argue one way or the other that this book should even be on this list ? At least the Bat 227 has a top 2 or 3 cover in the Bronze Age along with Adams artwork and a classic storyline. Deathlok is a has been similar to how many other characters created in the Bronze Age, also has he ever had a series that lasted past 20 issues ? I see no reason whatsoever that book should have made it even in this round let alone last past the 1st.

[Norrin_Radd]

I cannot believe you people voted out Jonah Hex first.

[Comicdey]

that would definately not even be a first choice to go for at least 10 spots maybe 20

[THE_BEYONDER]

Theres been a couple posts made regarding the All Star Western 10, the New Gods 1, and the ASM 101 but not that much regarding the Astonishing Tales 25. I mean honestly can someone even try and argue one way or the other that this book should even be on this list ? At least the Bat 227 has a top 2 or 3 cover in the Bronze Age along with Adams artwork and a classic storyline. Deathlok is a has been similar to how many other characters created in the Bronze Age, also has he ever had a series that lasted past 20 issues ? I see no reason whatsoever that book should have made it even in this round let alone last past the 1st.

 

1st Perez art work

[joe_collector]

Theres been a couple posts made regarding the All Star Western 10, the New Gods 1, and the ASM 101 but not that much regarding the Astonishing Tales 25. I mean honestly can someone even try and argue one way or the other that this book should even be on this list ? At least the Bat 227 has a top 2 or 3 cover in the Bronze Age along with Adams artwork and a classic storyline. Deathlok is a has been similar to how many other characters created in the Bronze Age, also has he ever had a series that lasted past 20 issues ? I see no reason whatsoever that book should have made it even in this round let alone last past the 1st.

 

1st Perez art work

 

Not to mention that Deathlok was one of the meaner, darker and more reprehensible BA characters - a true killer who would wade through people like Dirty Harry on steroids. I can remember being shocked at the violence in his comic, and it even made it to mainstream comics like MTU.

 

He definitely had an influence on *darkening* other amoral BA characters like Punisher, Wolverine, etc. and . I don't get this "ooooh, a classic cover" BS in this type of poll, and I'd guarantee that Deathlok had more impact on the BA than a non-entity like Batman 227.