ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC

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On 12/26/2023 at 11:14 AM, Sam T said:

You can say it's "more involved" but any plan that ONLY involves online shenanigans is a whole lot easier than a plan that requires a sonic welder.

 

There are 3 possible problems that fit the facts I've seen:

1. Slabs are not tamper proof or people are counterfeiting slabs (sonic welders aren't that rare). They look so good that that even CGC can't tell they've been tampered with during their reholdering process.

2. A bunch of questionable, high value sales of bronze age mega-keys were faked on eBay.

3. A grader at CGC employee during the reholdering process is upgrading and removing listed defects from books that either he or an associate plan to sell on eBay.

 

 

#1 seem questionable as it offer no explanation for cert numbers. Unless you are stating there are now multiple Hulk 181's for example, with same cert numbers? if that was the case by now an example or 10 would have been caught and displayed here or Social media.

#3 while certainly in conspiracy range is only one that explains everything found. Then again a hallmark of any good conspiracy is something that with a causal glance explains everything on the surface that the observer desires to see...

On 12/26/2023 at 11:14 AM, sledgehammer said:

It's the same book.  What looks like a bit of white at the top of the front cover spine, is certainly more inner well visual tricks.

I agree when looking at the front but the back makes me far less sure. The staining looks much worse in the blue label version which would be post-switch. There is also pronounced creasing on the back cover that is not in the green label. This could just be a function of the (updated) picture of the green label being at a lower resolution, but while the front cover looks like a match I am not seeing a slam dunk when taking the back into account. I dunno, and I am sure people will disagree with me on this, but I am seeing a "maybe" with this one specific book. The others shown so far were more convincing. 

On 12/26/2023 at 10:28 AM, Stefan_W said:

On 12/26/2023 at 10:14 AM, sledgehammer said:

It's the same book.  What looks like a bit of white at the top of the front cover spine, is certainly more inner well visual tricks.

I agree when looking at the front but the back makes me far less sure. The staining looks much worse in the blue label version which would be post-switch. There is also pronounced creasing on the back cover that is not in the green label. This could just be a function of the (updated) picture of the green label being at a lower resolution, but while the front cover looks like a match I am not seeing a slam dunk when taking the back into account. I dunno, and I am sure people will disagree with me on this, but I am seeing a "maybe" with this one specific book. The others shown so far were more convincing. 

Tear in upper left corner rear cover  the exact same place.

Different lighting.

On 12/26/2023 at 12:03 PM, comicwiz said:

Yet another Hulk 181 Green to Blue, this time it's a Qualified 6.5 that became a Universal 7.0. 

Beginning first with the certifications screenshots, post with sold dates for each to follow this one:

4089133002 - CGC Qualifed 6.5 - Hulk 181

Became

↳ 4146028001 - CGC Universal 7.0 - Hulk 181

NOTE: @mephistopheles or anyone that is able to mine better pics for 4089133002 - Qualified 6.5 Hulk 181 sold Nov 7th, 2022 - $3000 - please post them and tag me. I'll replace them with the ones I've got for the time being.

 

On 12/26/2023 at 11:28 AM, Stefan_W said:

I agree when looking at the front but the back makes me far less sure. The staining looks much worse in the blue label version which would be post-switch. There is also pronounced creasing on the back cover that is not in the green label. This could just be a function of the (updated) picture of the green label being at a lower resolution, but while the front cover looks like a match I am not seeing a slam dunk when taking the back into account. I dunno, and I am sure people will disagree with me on this, but I am seeing a "maybe" with this one specific book. The others shown so far were more convincing. 

Have a look at the post now, updated it with better front pic from @WestcoastDAVEngers, you can see the exact same iregular shape tick on the spine by the black arrow. It's the exact same comic. 

On 12/26/2023 at 11:34 AM, comicwiz said:

Sorry everyone, the WEBP format just throws everything off kilter, I've got so much stuff open on my screen that if I have to use an WEBP converter, it just bogs everything down. I've cleaned-up any issues with previous posts. On to the data dive.

Big thanks to everyone for your patience and help in getting this all presented in a concise manner.

If you are using Chrome;

https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-get-around-chromes-save-as-webp-image-format-issue/

On 12/26/2023 at 11:34 AM, sledgehammer said:

Tear in upper left corner rear cover  the exact same place.

Different lighting.

Updated pics show the wear on the spine really well now on the green label 6.5 for better comparison. It's the exact same book.

On 12/26/2023 at 11:36 AM, comicwiz said:

Have a look at the post now, updated it with better front pic from @WestcoastDAVEngers, you can see the exact same iregular shape tick on the spine by the black arrow. It's the exact same comic. 

The front is definitely more convincing than the back, which could be a function of lighting and resolution. 

I see Dave beat me to the punch. Just getting caught up on thread. To get the higher res pics you need a gocollect sub.

Steps:

1.search title

2.click on label type(qualified, universal etc...)

3, select grade

4,click on sale date

If he is pressing & cleaning and replacing missing pieces with an undetectable married wrap, all of those Hulk 181s may actually have been upgraded and given a blue label had they gone through CGC's grading process (as opposed to the dishonest short cut reholder).

The bolded part above is what I'm not sure is achievable. But, if we don't have one of those to examine, we can't be sure there is a missing coupon/piece/MVS.

Looking forward to the detailing of the Mark Jeweller switcheroos, which I think is agreed is a similar scam with a different twist (and the one that kicked this whole thing off).

If I'm not mistaken, examples comicwiz has posted thus far involve same book/same cert #/different grade/different label color.

On 12/26/2023 at 9:58 AM, skybolt said:

Thank you for that clarification. Based on what you're saying, this now goes back to being a re-holdering scam EVERY TIME. To go through a time line, let's use Comicwiz's recent posting as an example.

-  9/6/2022 - CGC grades a 6.5 copy submitted by a random collector or potentially by the scammer (if he obtained a raw copy somewhere).

-  11/16/2022 - CGC grades a qualified 6.0 copy submitted by a random collector or perhaps the scammer if he's able to find raw copies for cheap in the distant past.

- Sometime between September 2022 and April 2023 the scammer buys the CGC graded unrestored 6.5 copy (or uses one of his raw copies). I can't see this original sale on GPA (as well as other examples Comicwiz posted), which leads me to believe the scammer is either buying these books from someone who doesn't report sales to GPA or he's been hoarding multiple raw copies of key books like Hulk 181, ASM 238, etc. and is sending them in to be graded first.  He probably got them for cheap 5, 10, 15 years ago.

- On 2/23/2023 the scammer buys the raw qualified 6.0 copy. Not sure if this sale is legit or he bought his own copy.

- Sometime between February 23, 2023 and April 11, 2023, the scammer switches the books and sends the qualified book with the 6.5 blue label to CGC for re-holdering.

- At some point thereafter, he has the original unrestored 6.5 copy regraded by CGC to restart the process.

Replying to my own post here. When I mentioned this was a reholdering scam every time, that doesn't have to necessarily be true in every case. We know that the seller needed to push the envelope and send things through CGC to get the newsstand and Mark Jeweler designations on the new labels via re-holdering. However, with respect to these Hulk 181's, we really don't have any proof that he used the re-holdering process. If he is able to crack open slabs and weld them back together without detection, then the switcheroo could've just as easily occurred at his home. That being said, I still think it's fishy that CGC would give the Mark Jeweler designation without insisting on opening the inner well to check if the insert is detached or not.

As if the grade bumps in universals weren't bad enough, these qualified and restored swapped to universal is really bad. How the hell is CGC going to explain this.

On 12/26/2023 at 10:28 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I think a Hulk 181 scam deserves its own thread. 

They ain't go to...

On 12/26/2023 at 9:36 AM, MAR1979 said:

CGC will not respond this week, nor next week, nor next month, nor 1st quarter 2024...

The only way CGC/Blackstone makes a statement, or even begins an investigation, is if the flow of submissions sublimates downward.  Even then Blackstone may still simply sell CGC once certain profit thresholds are negatively breached and execs begin to fear their large bonus' might be impacted by even a dime. Therefore entirely plausible as long as Blackstone owns CGC nothing will be said or done. Remember folks Blackstone's ownership (via sum of their actions) is a somewhat textbook pump and dump.

On 12/26/2023 at 11:41 AM, badback83 said:

Not that it really matters much, but for the people who are following along with the Youtube crowd, StickyGoose doesn't think there is a scam.  

Then maybe StickyGoose playing with his sonic welder too close to his ears and eyes.