sfcityduck

That OPG article is just wrong. Fortunately, the way the book is listed is correct.

You need to sharpen your reading (and reasoning) skills. Read this: Get it? BB 60 was just the "next time" the team appears and Wonder Girl was just an "addition ... to the teen team." So way back when Teen Titans no. 1 came out it was already recognized that the team was created in BB 54, BB 60 was the "next time" the "team" appeared, and Wonder Girl was an "addition" to the "team." Do I really need to go on explaining plain English to you? Get it? In BB 60 they introduced the name "Teen Titans," and the "addition" of Wonder Girl helped the "team ... soar to new heights of acclaim." Meaning, more popularity and favorable response then their original appearance in BB 54. This is really obvious. You don't need to photoshop the text. It's all plain there to see. I suggest you read it with an open mind.

What sfcityduck really sees: Get it? Way back when Teen Titans no. 1 came out DC stated that the "history of the Teen Titans" starts with BB 54! Get it? BB 60 was just the "next time" the team appears and Wonder Girl was just an "addition ... to the teen team." So way back when Teen Titans no. 1 came out it was already recognized that the team was created in BB 54, BB 60 was the "next time" the "team" appeared, and Wonder Girl was an "addition" to the "team." Do I really need to go on explaining plain English to you? Get it? In BB 60 they introduced the name "Teen Titans," and the "addition" of Wonder Girl helped the "team ... soar to new heights of acclaim." Meaning, more popularity and favorable response then their original appearance in BB 54. This is really obvious. You don't need to photoshop the text. It's all plain there to see. I suggest you read it with an open mind.

Still ignoring this post, sfcityduck? Maybe hoping if you ignore it long enough it will just disappear? All of those positions have been addressed over and over. Let me make it simple enough you can understand. The group now known as the TT formed in BB54 when Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad came together for the very first time in a shared adventure against a common menace. That story is essentially the same as Avengers 1. Heroes come together due to common menace, come into conflict, learn to work together. We also know that behind the scenes this comic was created in response to fan demand leading to an editorial directive for a "Junior Justice League" issue. Bob Haney explained this in interviews because its an interesting topic and he was asked. He certainly knows what happened. What did not happen in BB54 is the naming of that team as the JJL. Instead, six issues later, the team was named the "Teen Titans." The editorial narrative was that the team was formed as a result of the events in BB54 and the team name was selected after that, but before BB60. The continuity is clear. Team forms, then picks up name. Haney concurs. So does DC, Overstreet, dealers, fans, etc. Keep spitting against the wind.

No one is reading this thread but a small handfull of stubborn posters. This thread isn't convincing anyone of anything. The real poll is on eBay, and on eBay dealers overwhelmingly, in fact universally (including you HighStakesComics), list BB54 as a TT comic with all but one saying "first appearance."

That's as convincing as it gets. Yep, in TT 1, DC clearly states that the history of the TT begins with BB54. BB60 is denoted as the "next time around" for the group, and where they get their name, but not as a "first appearance" -- for the obvious reason that BB54 takes that spot in DC's "history of the Teen Titans." Couple that with the first reprinting of BB54 in the 70s being denoted as a TT story, and DC's stated positions that BB54 is the first TT story in Archives and the 50th Anniversary celebration (calculated off of BB54), and its pretty obvious that DC took the position that BB54 was the first TT appearance in the 60s, 70s, and onward. The erroneous statements in the 70s reprint of BB60 and the retcon caption in the late 70s TT comic (the dark age of the series) have never been repeated.

DC has tried hard to combat the misinformation with repeated statements that the TT started with BB 54, so maybe that will solve the problem. In the meantime, watch out for what you read on the wikis, they are completely being manipulated. Fortunately, it does not appear that dealers are being taken in by the misinfo, and most everyone advertises BB 54 as a TT issue. Got a source for the claim that DC "has tried hard" to do anything? Let alone what you claim? Rather than just go along with the current prevailing idea? Do you really think Dan DiDio is losing sleep over which comic fans think is the first appearance of Teen Titans? They say it's BB54 (now!) because that's what Overstreet, et al, say. Of course, it's not what comics.org says, but what do they know. The big problem is that for many years now, most people who have worked in the industry were fans first and were exposed to all of the same things as other fans. A few of them really care about the history and try to correct faulty perceptions, but most can't be bothered. Comics.org is basically wiki level information. Bob Haney was a creator of the TT, wrote BB54 and BB60, and when shown a copy of BB54 in a long line of "team-up" issues his immediate unprompted reaction is "first Teen Titans." And that's consistent with other interviews by him and the stories about how the TT came to be created. DC has been saying BB54 was the first Teen Titans since it was first reprinted in the early 70s, restated that position in the Archives, and most recently made it clear again in the 50 year celebration of the TT. You guys can continue to assert that the vast majority of fans, dealers, and scholars have it wrong, but you can't claim it is based on ignorance or a lack of historical knowledge. Reading BB 54 and BB 60 makes it obvious that the first appearance of the team that was later named the Teen Titans was BB54. But, no one will dispute the first time the name was used was BB60.

For the record, here's what Bob Haney has to say about Sgt. Rock: So what were you saying about Sgt. Rock?

DC has tried hard to combat the misinformation with repeated statements that the TT started with BB 54, so maybe that will solve the problem. In the meantime, watch out for what you read on the wikis, they are completely being manipulated. Fortunately, it does not appear that dealers are being taken in by the misinfo, and most everyone advertises BB 54 as a TT issue.

Yeah, 3 out of 151. One of those three following up on the fifth team-up to make a real team. No. It was 5 out of 11. The last non two hero team-up issue of B&B was BB60. Everyone recognized that starting with BB61, it became a true team-up book. Before that, the concept wasn't entirely off the ground.

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney. I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ? CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans. CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently. HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans. Haney's unprompted recollection of BB54 as the "first Teen Titans" is a lot more significant to me than Catron's comment. Especially given Haney's recollection that BB54 resulted from his editor's directive to come with a JJLA issue (in line with what DC hinted they'd do 24 issues earlier) and it was only "later" that the group was instead dubbed with the name he came up with: Teen Titans. Catron had nothing to do with the creation of the group, so your bolding of Catron's comment to obscure Haney's unprompted recollection just tells me how desperate you are to muddy the waters. So you purposely leave out pertinent parts of the discussion between the 2 individuals, skewing information to again to try and be right, then at the same time decide to be the arbiter of what should be viewed as relevant and what shouldn't and I'm the desperate one ? I guess Haney agreeing with these statements is irrelevant because he can't think for himself. Continue using hyperbole including disparaging comments to people, it's really helping to prove your point. When Haney was shown BB54 he reacted, without any prompting, by stating: "Yeah, the first Teen Titans." Catron's immediate response? "Right." So do you think Catron agreed that BB54 was the first Teen Titans? It sure looks like it under your theory that saying "Right" is an adoptive admission of what was said before. Here's the transcript again: CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans. CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently. HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans. Me, however, I think you have to read a conversation with the recognition that some of what people say is clear and some is ambiguous. And what's clear about this conversation is that when shown BB54, Haney's immediate reaction was "Yeah, the first Teen Titans." Catron then said "Right," apparently agreeing that BB54 was the "first Teen Titans." You, I think, would disagree that this is what Catron meant because it would contradict your reading of the passage. Then Catron said "Before they were called the Teen Titans," a factual statement that all of us can agree with. And then Catron made a wishy washy and vague statement that could, if read one way, contradict the "Right" he'd uttered a few second before: "It was just a three-way team-up, apparently." [What Catron did not say is: "BB60 is really the first appearance of the Teen Titans." So it is by no means clear that his last statement was intended to contradict his apparent agreement that BB54 is the "first Teen Titans."] Haney then confuses things further by saying "Right," without indicating what it is he's saying "Right" in response to. Could be Catron's agreement that BB54 was the "first Teen Titans," and/or Catron's statement that BB54 was before they were called the Teen Titans, and/or Catron's statement it was "just a three-way team-up, apparently." It could be one, two or all three. Haney does, however, make a clear statement that "I came up with the name Teen Titans," which strongly indicates that all Haney was agreeing with was Catron's statement about BB54 pre-dating the name Teen Titans. In short, if you're being intellectually honest, you have to admit that the only clear statements made by Haney in that interview were: (1) BB is "the first Teen Titans" and (2) "I came up with the name Teen Titans." Anything else we might infer was said by Haney (or Catron) is based on speculation as to what they meant when they said "Right." So, no, this interview doesn't help you at all. Especially, when you consider what else Haney said about the creation of the Teen Titans in other interviews. Like I said, this is a desperate attempt.

If there's one person who is an absolute authority on continuity, it's definitely Bob Haney. I guess we're going to leave out the very next thing said in the interview ? CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans. CATRON: Right. Before they were called the Teen Titans. It was just a three-way team-up, apparently. HANEY: Right. I came up with the name.Teen Titans. Haney's unprompted recollection of BB54 as the "first Teen Titans" is a lot more significant to me than Catron's comment. Especially given Haney's recollection that BB54 resulted from his editor's directive to come with a JJLA issue (in line with what DC hinted they'd do 24 issues earlier) and it was only "later" that the group was instead dubbed with the name he came up with: Teen Titans. Catron had nothing to do with the creation of the group, so your bolding of Catron's comment to obscure Haney's unprompted recollection just tells me how desperate you are to muddy the waters.

HANEY: I did a lot of my best work on Brave and Bold. I did good solid stories and plots and I had some fairly, reasonably imaginative ways of linking up the characters, or creating a plot that tied in with the particular guest star. Even Batman himself. I can remember half a dozen stories that I thought were superior. A lot of kids — a lot of our fans liked it. We got a lot of letters. The book sold well. And I did the damn book for what? Thirteen years? CATRON: Oh, yeah. Yeah. HANEY: I even got huzzahs from Paul Levitz. [Laughs.] Until he fired me off the book years later. CATRON: [Laughs.] Well, I’ve got some early issues here. Here’s the first one, apparently, Green Arrow and Manhunter from Mars. HANEY: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah. CATRON: Then there’s a Flash/Manhunter from Mars. HANEY: Right, right. CATRON: That’s just a couple issues later. And Flash and Doom Patrol. HANEY: Right. CATRON: And, of course, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. HANEY: Yeah, the first Teen Titans.

I think a good portion of the people who have been commenting on this thread haven't read either 54 or 60. Or the Teen Titans in general. I've read them. It's clear that BB54 was intentionally designed to be a teen oriented book not just an ordinary "team-up." The whole thrust of the story was teen-parent conflict and teen culture. It clearly was intentionally designed to set up a theme to attract teen readers. That theme, of course, carried over into subsequent TT stories. BB54 also followed the classic team origin: Heroes come together in response to common threat, heroes get into conflict, heroes learn to work together. You guys seem ignorant of the real origin issue of the TT: Brave and the Bold no. 30. In the letters page of BB30, Larry Maher of Arlington, Virginia wrote in response to the JLA issues: "how about publishing a companion book called Junior Justice League of America? You have enough stand-by juvenile heroes to round out such a magazine: Robin, Speedy, Supergirl, Kid from Atlantis, and Kid Flash! The JJLA could go into action when the ... menacing situation is of a nature that would lend itself to better treatment by the junior group." Editor Julius Schwartz replied: "A very interesting idea that has been advanced by a number of other readers. We hope to make an interesting announcement about this soon." Of course, we all know that it was four years later that the concept finally got off the ground. Bob Haney recalls it that it was Kashdan who first directed that they put out a Junior Justice League issue, although they didn't use that name in BB54 -- just the concept, "and I later was the one who came up with the name Teen Titans." So a creator of the TT recalls that the concept for the group and the group pre-dated the name he came up with "later," but you guys still keep on spitting into the wind.

It's these kind of intellectually dishonest arguments which keep me coming back to frustrate you guys. Superman 76 is the first appearance of a team. It is the first appearance of the Superman-Batman team which would become a regular feature in World's Finest from no. 71 on (really Superman-Batman-Robin team). Did that team have a fancy name? Nope. Did it evolve into the JLA? Nope. If all you got is absurd strawmen, you lose credibility. Why should anyone take this seriously?

First, BB had multiple non-"team-up" issues after BB50. That blows the argument you guys make based on the house ads out of the water. Second, are you really serious when you ask: "please let us know which "new teams" you think were introduced in the subsequent issues"? C'mon. Your whole argument is that BB 60 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. Just as the majority of folks contend that BB 54 introduced a "new team" -- the TT. It is a fact that the TT were introduced in BB, after BB 50, which again proves your whole "team-up book" argument is false. Finally, in BB 54 we see three heroes come together to fight a common menace, and, after initial conflict, learn to work together and gain mutual respect. Isn't that how most such teams come together? The only thing we don't see is someone say: Let's call ourselves [Name]! That's really all this dispute is about. Whether a team can be formed without a name. The answer is obvious: It can. What's absurd is thinking you can have the origin of a team without its first appearance.

The name isn't the most important part. How is a team "officially formed'? Is there a registration process? Does the team get a license? C'mon. A team of the TT sort (like JLA or Avengers) is nothing more than a collection of individual heroes who periodically come together to fight a common menace, usually separate and apart from their many solo adventures. The team is formed when it first comes together and commences the group adventures. There are no "rules" for team formation. Nothing says that a team cannot pre-exist its team name, just as superheroes pre-exist their superhero names ala Animal Man, Ant-Man, and Kitty Pryde. This semantic argument is very unconvincing.

Any panels you requested have been posted. Unless your request was a strawman, like asking for a panel from BB54 that uses the name "Teen Titans." If you have so much energy, I think you ought to start a thread arguing that Animal Man's first appearance was Strange Adventures 190 instead of 180 (or even 184) because that is when he got the name. I also look forward to your thread presenting the argument that Uncanny X-Men 129 is not the first appearance of a certain Marvel hero because she didn't get a superhero name until Uncanny X-Men 139.

Nah. All this is going to accomplish is to get people patroling wiki's and correcting the record because they are annoyed at the market manipulation. I've already sent a note off to OPG. Spreading misinformation, MisStakesComics, tends to annoy people, especially when you're selling BB54 without disclaiming that it is a TT book. Annoyed people become active. That's why this thread isn't dying. You're just rallying an opposition to your cause.

I'm not sure when that would be. After all, BB60 specifically cites to BB54 when it says the formation of the TT pre-dated BB60: So it was established by DC the first time that the name Teen Titans was used that the group originated in BB54. Moreover, the first time the story from BB54 was reprinted, in 1972, in DC 100 Page Super Spectacular DC-21, it was labeled on the cover as being a "Teen Titans" story. Hard to fault Overstreet for calling BB54 the first Teen Titans appearance when that's exactly what DC was doing back when the Guide was first written. Of course, subsequent DC publications, such as the Archives and 50th Anniversay HC, have also confirmed BB54 was the first appearance and origin of the TT. Bob got it right. That's why every dealer, including you, list BB54 as a TT book.

All discussions go through circular reasoning and stuff gets repeated. I just can't understand why it's so difficult to grasp/admit that they first appeared in #54. Circular arguments without actually using the knowledge which has been laid out is a waste of time. And yet I see argument after argument claiming BB 60 is the first TT appearance even though DC and the vast majority in the comic collecting community say that is not true. Ignoring all the reasoned argument in favor of BB54. And what's worse is that someone is posting this nonsense to Wikipedias in order to try and pump up the price of the book. It's a low point.

Been reading this thread with interest. Being I do in fact have a copy of the first ed of Overstreet. Here are the relevant listings: 54--Kid Flash, Robin & Aqualad 60--Teen Titans The prices for the two books are the same. Make of that what you will. Any chance we could find out which edition they made the change please? I think you are confused. Overstreet didn't list BB60 as "first app. of Teen Titans" in the early OPGs. Basically the early volumes of the OPG just list for every single B&B issue what the cover said. Back then these were sub $1.50 books and Bob was doing the OPG on what looked like a typewriter through volume 9. With volume 10, Bob entered the computer age, markedly improved the graphics, and started adding a lot more information. It was in that first redesigned issue that BB54 was first designated as the first appearance of the Teen Titans. There were many similar instances in that volume of additional info being added to the descriptions and the font got much smaller in the OPG as a result.

If you were to time travel to October 1965, the month after Strange Adventures 180, asked a million comic book readers who Animal Man was, none of them would be able to answer, because the NAME did not exist yet. But ... the character did. He'd been introduced in Strange Adventures 180, sans NAME. Strange Adventures 180 is the first appearance of "Animal Man," even though he didn't gain that moniker until his third appearance in Strange Adventures 190 (he'd also appeared in Strange Adventures 184). The name is not what matters. And, no, this is not a "retcon" by DC. BB60 made clear that the team existed prior to BB60 and it cites directly to BB54.

Contrast this statement: With this statement: Exactly. You are refuting yourself. BB was not solely a "team-up" book after BB50. While your ad touts "two hero" team-ups, there were a number of issues after BB50 that departed from that concept. As you rightly admit, there were non-"team-up" issues after BB50. These "exceptions" included BB 57 and BB 58 which featured solo Metamorpho stories (a possible Showcase style tryout for his own series?), BB 54 and BB60 which featured the TT (again a possible Showcase style tryout?), and BB 52 which featured Sgt. Rock, Haunted Tank and Lt. Cloud. Which just proves, as I said, that BB was not solely a "two hero" team-up book, as you claim the ad supports, until after BB 60. Which means that claiming that BB54 is just a team-up because it was after BB50 is an utterly false claim.

This second ad is just another two hero team-up in line with the concept for the ad you discuss in the first example. But, not only was BB54 not a two hero team-up in line with that ad, but the two hero team-up was not the only thing happening in B&B in that time period. BB was not solely a team-up book after BB 50. For example, BB 57 and BB 58 introduced Metamorpho in two solo adventures. BB 60 was also not a "team-up" but, as all of you contend quite vociferously, a true "team" story (not a team-up of a team and a solo hero as in BB 94 with TT and Batman teaming up). BB did not become a "team-up" book until after BB60. So the notion that BB was just a "team-up" book after BB 50, and therefore BB54 is just a "team-up", is utterly false.