bronze johnny

On 8/10/2023 at 12:00 AM, adamstrange said:

We got Phantom Lady so I'm not sure we missed out much by not getting his version of WW.

I look at Adam Hughes modern version of Wonder Woman and can’t help but wonder. Would also have loved to see the Baker Catwoman. Giving a shout out to Kintsler here because he achieved immortality as one of the great American Artists of the 20th Century, which something none of the others mentioned here ever did. Kintsler was special. 

On 8/9/2023 at 5:58 PM, Sarg said:

Yeah. I (like many, I suspect) overlook Mac Raboy because Captain Marvel, Junior is such a minor character. It's a shame because Mac was undoubtedly a great, great artist. I wish he'd done Superman or Batman. 

The “Raboy Superman” would have been the greatest rendition of the Golden Age Superhero followed by the “Baker Wonder Woman.” Just imagine how amazing they would have been…

On 8/9/2023 at 10:12 AM, Robot Man said:

Apples to oranges…

Schomburg’s work is very busy and somewhat “cartoony”. Raboy’s work is more sedate and “illustrative”.

Both are masters and deserve to be on the list. I know I spend a lot more time looking at Schomburg’s work and less on Raboy’s.

Personal preference…

Yes, and I’ve made the point before about the title of this thread being changed to which artist to you prefer. It’s generally about preferences when comparing artists but you can’t tell me that Charles Wilson Peale was a better portrait artist than John Singleton Copley (check out their portraits of George Washington). He wasn’t. I can go on about other artists to further my example if you want? Raboy was the superior artist who could draw just about anything including “cartoony.” There’s no way Schomburg could match Raboy’s “illustrations.” 

On 8/8/2023 at 10:31 PM, Professor K said:

Well he wasn't the best considering the competition. Even the biggest fans would probably agree. Most of his comic covers were basically shock value to get people to buy. You've probably seen some of his other work which is very different from his comics. He really was a great artist as far as detail and realism, especially with nature and animals art.  

Personally love a number of L.B. Cole covers and Contact Comics 12 is one of my all-time favorite covers but the other Cole was the superior artist and I’m not a big fan of Plastic Man. Not basing my decision on what my preference is. 

On 8/8/2023 at 10:18 PM, Professor K said:

Yep, I've thought that. I think I stated here once that I wish he had done the Captain America run instead of Shomburg. Too bad he didn't do any DC's (that I know of) or float around a little more among publishers. If had done a Superman, Flash, Batman ect. ect covers they would have been awesome no doubt.

It’s not a knock on Schomburg to say that Raboy was better. Look carefully at Mac’s work and you see just how incredible it is. Raboy was on a level that only a handful of his contemporaries could come close to.

Wondering if the popularity of Timely/Marvel has something to do with some placing Schomburg at the top? Yes, Schomburg did great WW2 superhero covers but there’s no way he comes close to Raboy who was superior in every aspect as an artist. Raboy’s art is on a higher plane. Still, Mac didn’t work for Timely and never had the chance to draw Superman. Imagine the Raboy Superman? It would have been an incredible sight!

On 8/8/2023 at 3:28 PM, adamstrange said:

The request for the poll was for "greatest overall", so everyone will have to decide the weight to apply to each of the aspects that you list.

I think that Schomburg and Cole should be excluded from the list because they drew so few interior stories.  Storytelling is an important enough component that the handful of relatively undistinguished stories by these brilliant cover artists are not enough for them to minimally qualify.

Lou Cameron needs to be added to any list of Golden (& Atomic) Age greats. There’s no better artist who tells the story than Cameron. 

On 8/7/2023 at 9:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

We all are entitled to our opinions and a diversity of opinions can lead to great conversation.

True and I’ve debated this time immemorial and there’s an Atomic Age in between the Gold and Silver Ages. Maybe I will circle back after finally getting around to the 53 Edition of the Overstreet Price Guide.

On 8/7/2023 at 9:09 PM, MrBedrock said:

NERD FIGHT!!!!

You ❤️nerds!

On 8/7/2023 at 9:09 PM, MrBedrock said:

Bill Everett

Your favorite!

On 8/7/2023 at 8:51 PM, sfcityduck said:

Yeah ... no. I gotta disagree.

GA was used by Lupoff in 1960. It quickly was adopted to refer to the first heroic age of, really, DC Comics and extends until the start of the second heroic age of DC Comics when we get the first reboot of a GA DC hero.  That's the way the term was originally used in fandom and it is the way most of us understand it today. Michael Uslan explained how Silver Age started: "Fans immediately glommed onto this, refining it more directly into a Silver Age version of the Golden Age. Very soon, it was in our vernacular, replacing such expressions as ... 'Second Heroic Age of Comics' or 'The Modern Age' of comics. It wasn't long before dealers were ... specifying it was a Golden Age comic for sale or a Silver Age comic for sale."

Obviously, the GA of strip reprints started much earlier and the GA of PCH much later.  So we could certainly have a lot of GA definitions, but I'd suggest we go with the traditional one.

P.S.  Here's the first usage of the term Golden Age by a comic fan writing about comics that I've ever seen.  He used it to refer to 1938-1942. From his perspective of 1948 the WWII years weren't the GA: 

However, this fan loved EC Comics and from today's perspective I'm sure he'd say they were GA. 

Respectfully…agree…to disagree and I stand by my position. 

On 8/7/2023 at 5:55 PM, Sarg said:

Greatest in terms of ability, draftsmanship, originality, versatility, etc.

What’s the Golden Age? 1938 - ?

The Golden Age starts with Action Comics 1 and ends with the end of World War 2 and the decline of the Superhero genre. The rise of the Crime, Romance, and Horror genres start their progression with the postwar era. Baker and his contemporaries make their mark during this period. 

EC Comics is not Golden Age so let’s make sure greats like Wally Wood and Frazetta are placed in their respective eras when they were at the apex of their craft. 

The Golden Age greats include Fine, Kirby, Beck, Jack Cole, Schomberg, Eisner, Crandall, Binder, Simon, Everett, and Raboy. Comes down to which of the batch is your favorite. My suggestion is that you rewrite the heading of this thread to “Who’s your favorite Golden Age Artist.” Then add Raboy and remove the ones who aren’t Golden Age greats.

First appearance of Judge Dredd in Prog 1 !

Wrong forum for this announcement. Needs to be in Seller/Dealer forum

On 7/30/2023 at 5:35 PM, lou_fine said:

I always like to add a touch of humor every now and then to lighten up the mood a bit, especially since this place gets a bit too serious at times. 

That's actually an excellent and well thought out post which I have absolutely no problems agreeing with, as it's indeed a little bit of both.  A bit of science in terms of an acceptable condition grade range based upon the type and quantity of technical defects plus a little bit of subjectivity (i.e. open to interpretation) thrown in there on top just to spice things up and to keep us conspiracy theorists from dying of boredom and falling asleep here.    

BTW:  No Zero or non-diet drinks for me since they are so absolutely tasteless.  

I actually love a guy who laughs at his own jokes

Unlike Diet Coke, No Sugar Pepsi if excellent in terms of taste. Try it if you haven’t.

On 7/30/2023 at 1:49 PM, lou_fine said:

Given that it's summertime and the current hot weather, not sure if you've been drinking a bit too much of the CGC juice or not here.  

You actually make it sound as though grading is an exact science that can be done by mindless robots with 100% accuracy and 100% consistentcy.  Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but it's really nothing more than just a subjective opinion (albeit a so-called expert one) when the book hits a human graders table, and as such, subject to many different influencing factors.    

Do you always laugh at your own jokes? Grading has a subjective part to it but there are factors that we use to measure where a books stands in terms of its grade. The process by which we arrive at a numerical grade for a book involves assessing those factors such as defects and deciding how much weight they are given. It’s open to interpretation given some of us may factor a defect differently and give it more or less weight when determining the numerical grade. We are applying a technical process to get some level of accuracy. CGC has standards and applies them to its grading process. They usually get some consensus on a grade and there are times when their graders don’t. That being said, there is no such thing for deciding whether a book presents well. It can’t be quantified.

I’m drinking a Zero Sugar Pepsi btw.

On 7/29/2023 at 7:50 PM, lou_fine said:

 

Well, if you really really want to be cynical about the whole thing, do you really need a third party to tell you what the condition grade of a book is?  

Seriously though, it doesn't hurt if you are into the CPR game and either too lazy or don't have the technical smarts to figure out what is potentially upgradeable or not.  I remember taking a look at about a dozen or so of Doug's GA Dell File copies from the late 30's/early 40's that had either the QES or CVA sticker on them when he had originally picked them up, and if I remembered correctly, it was a perect batting average when it came to him reselling them on Heritage, all encased in higher graded slabs. 

The ironic and rather funny thing about it though was that Dougie still ended up losing money on the ones that originally had the QES stickers on them as some of them sold for even slightly lower dollars at HA even though they had the bigger number in the top left hand corner, but no longer any sticker on them.   

He more than made it up though with the one that originally had the CVA sticker on it, probably because not as many GA collectors frequent the CL auctions as compared to the CC auctions.  

 

Big difference between grading comic books and deciding whether a copy presents well. You can quantify the number of defects a comic book has and even determine whether a defect in question has a greater impact on the technical grade of a comic where a scale is used to measure and allow the grader(s) to arrive at a numerical number for the grade. You can’t quantify whether a book presents well or not. There are copies of Avengers1 that present better in 6.0 than 7.0. There are copies of books that have 6.0 grades due to defects on the back cover reducing their technical grades. You don’t need a third party to tell you what you can decide for yourself.  This isn’t about being cynical. 

On 7/29/2023 at 2:17 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

How does anyone "know" that a book in the same grade presents better than the majority of other copies in the same grade? ...Ouija board? ...Turbaned Swami? ...Drug sniffin' canine unit? 

Ah, that presumes it's just a sellers advertising gimmick, using the power of suggestion to persuade potential buyers without verifiable evidence to bolster the assertion.  

In fact, using reverse psychology it might be just as reasonable to assume the best books in grade don't have stickers. 

How many available  copies are in the grades for some of the books you have to choose from? Do you need a sticker for the Mile High Copy? The Twilight? Should I wait around for another Gerber 8 copy of one of my Feature Comic books because the one in my collection that I really like doesn’t have a sticker on it? 

In relative terms, you can know if your copy is nicer than the others in the same grade where there are multiple copies in existence unless you spend a lot of time analyzing Heritage and other websites that keep scans in their history of sales. Still, there are those who believe a date stamp adds to the attraction of a cover while others dislike them. When buying a book, the old adage “buy the book, not the grade” applies in many cases.

Then there’s looking at a book’s presentation in absolute terms and that’s a “know it when you see it.” There are collectors who aren’t concerned about getting the perfectly centered copy. Others who dislike signatures on the covers. I’ve seen books with stickers on them and smiled because of the sad attempt to quantify what cannot be quantified. Pedigree copies in general (Mohawks in many cases are an exception) and those good old books from noted collections (Edenwald and Sid’s Luncheonette) will generally have nice presenting copies so they stand on their own in terms of presentation. 

I think it’s time we start grading the slabs themselves, especially in terms of how many Newton Rings appear. Let’s put a sticker on slabs with less than 10 rings and call it the “Newton 🍎” standard…

Congrats Jimbo! A lot of posts for a guy in his early 20s.

On 7/18/2023 at 9:04 AM, Jayman said:

Wow! That driver either has a very oversized helmet or that’s a bullet through the head cover. Nice book Johnny! 

Thanks Jay! I wanted a POP Korean War book given Wertham never included any of these in SOTI. 

On 7/2/2023 at 11:08 AM, Jayman said:

That’s a favorite of mine!