Spider-Dan

as an expert on 70's carpets. those are two very different carpets.

 

I had my doubts about the validity of Dan's claims at first, but that was just ignorance on my part.

 

Take him for his word and stop this same rug wildly_fanciful_statement-ery.

We had the carpet installed new in 2005 when we bought the house

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

 

Better?

 

I was struck by this part of the thread, when you posted:

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s,

and pedigree books that had lost their designations when you had them regraded, you hid it.

 

As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming.

 

I have always had a huge problem with this tactic and the who do not maintain the provenance of Pedigree books to mask the Grade bumps. I can appreciate that Dan had the Blue-Purple-Blue happen to him and also am grateful that he brought it to light in a public forum, but .. I'll pay ppl the .2 + Grade bump, but I for one would appreciate knowing its a Ped. I mean even tell me after I've paid you so I can petition CGC to have the holder redone and add the provenance Back onto the label.

 

Had a hard time posting this as I'm not one to deflect a conversation but the tactic really hits a nerve. That said as much as I vehemently oppose the tactic, if the OP practices it, that still has absolutely no bearing on this whole situation

Since I can see where this is headed.....

That re-slab of a Pedigree was a one time incident that happened before I realized how important it was to some collectors to keep the designation.

That subject was beat to death when that original thread started.

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

 

Better?

 

I was struck by this part of the thread, when you posted:

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s, and pedigree books that had lost their designations when you had them regraded, you hid it.

 

As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming.

Before you ask, and for the sake of disclosure.....

I do NOT know the origin of MY carpet, or the buyers carpet. I could PM him if its that important to you

Looks like Bleeding Cool picked up the story..

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/04/04/when-a-cgcd-comic-goes-from-unrestores-to-restored-and-back-again/

 

THIS JUST IN:

 

After careful consideration by everyone in the building, CGC is 100% sure that Dan's carpet has been trimmed as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Nice

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

 

Better?

 

I do like this part of your thread:

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

Until others pointed out you were selling on these boards 9.6s that had previously graded 9.2s, 9.4s that had previously graded 9.0s, and pedigree books that had lost their designations when you had them regraded, you hid it.

 

As for this thread, it's good that you went public with the label color change on the JIM83 - it's another excellent reminder that CGC isn't completely accurate in assessing trimming.

Why the edit?

It's the same rug.

 

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" "Dan's a liar" band wagon

 

 

Rug = Dan?

Better?

It's the same rug.

Never takes you long to jump on the "Anti-Dan" band wagon

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/04/04/when-a-cgcd-comic-goes-from-unrestores-to-restored-and-back-again/

 

Although I'm sure all interested parties have probably heard about this story by now. Bleeding Cool wanted to make sure too.

 

Someone mentioned that both carpets looked the same, now that I see the two shots together I can see what they meant.

...I've thought to myself, it wouldn't surprise me if Dan and the new buyer should be the same person.

I'm with the crowd that is more concerned with the grade changes. I usually think restored books are undergraded, but that JIM had a big crease. It looked nice, however, 6.0 was a stretch. 7.0 was downright scary.

To be fair you never had the book in hand.

While that crease is ugly, that certainly doesn't make a 7.0 totally impossible. The inside is nearly perfect, and the back cover is really nice. If grading was based solely how the cover looks, then I would agree with you

It's a 6.5 Universal IMO

RE: Big Macs

 

 

Canadian Big Macs and American Big Macs are completely different. Eating a US Big Mac is akin to eating a Mexican Big Mac

 

dont trust the meat!

Double Big Mac in Canada is the tastiest (and messiest) sandwich ive even eaten at a McDonald's

this thread is a debacle.

 

Spider-Dan, next time you have an update, please do let us know, and put it in a new thread.

 

Hopefully, given that most everything has already been covered, that one can stay laser-focused on what has occurred, and what changes/improvements need to happen because of it

 

+1

 

There are parts of this thread that remind me of political filibusters.

 

Instead of trying to stop a vote from happening, some were trying to make it difficult for people to read about what happened.

 

Will do - Every time I come back its 80+ new posts with about 10 having merit

Would you say that CGC is 99.99% accurate? Do they miss 1 restored book out of every 1,000? I am not talking about the grade but the color of the label.

 

It'd be hard to tell as many books that get a blue label, stay in that holder for the foreseeable future and therefore any missed resto probably stays undetected. Considering how many books you must sub and resub on behalf of people, I'd hazard a guess that you'd have as much insight into CGC's accuracy as anyone who isn't employed by them?

 

I can honestly say that in almost 8 years of submitting cracked out slabs to CGC I have only had this happen to me twice. One was a very early old label book that was designated restored (tear seal) and the other was a blue label book that came back trimmed.

 

I would be interested to hear from others who submit a large number of CR or CPR books to see what their numbers are.

This makes 3 for me. (Almost 4)

In my March submission an FF 19 that was a 9.0 Blue label was marked as "Appearant" before grades were finalized. I contacted CGC, and it was changed to "Universal" with the explanation the the pre-grader mistook a grease pencil mark for CT

I was going to save this story for Friday, as I didn't want it to get lost in this thread

So if I don't contact them does it stay PLOD??

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

 

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

 

(thumbs u

 

As I said...'And that's in no way a judgement.'

I know

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

 

Yes we do.

 

In fact, the OP's 'business model' revolves entirely around doing exactly that.

 

And that's in no way a judgement.

So you're telling me that the OP's business is cracking open slabbed books and resubmitting them for higher grades without pressing or cleaning? And this is advertised?

 

I'm not telling you.

 

The OP is telling you.

 

I have a serious question for everyone.

 

Suppose a legitimate competitor pops up tomorrow. Someone the hobby believes in with real backing.

 

Will those here pay more for books in those holders?

 

Will you frequent the sites that carry them primarily?

 

Will you immediately send your books in for grading at the new service?

 

What if your books will sell for less in a new company's holder?

 

What if the transparency were no greater at the new company?

 

Would people be willing to sell their books for less short term to help support the credibility of the new company?

 

Curious to hear people's responses

 

Didn't PSA have a monopoly on card grading at one time

 

Dan

 

Doesn't your model work on straight resub no pressing? In other words a CGC mistake? If a new grading pops up they are going to be likely tighter and more consistent. Meaning you'll have to submit to CGC and crack the other company's to make money. Or you'll need to wait a couple years til the new grading company either has cycles of grading or enough on the market you can find the mistakes.

 

How does a competitor help your model? Or would you adjust to a new model altogether with a new company?

 

My "model" is to seek out books that look undergraded in hopes of an upgrade. A bit of a gamble I know, but Im willing to take that gamble. Many people on these Boards including you have benefitted from this.

 

I know that the number in the corner is only an OPINION. Whether a book is trimmed, color touched, pieces added, that should be a FACT.

 

This thread was started about going from Blue to Purple (and now back to Blue), not about a book being graded tight or not. If a new co could detect resto better, it would benefit ALL of us!

Ive always been honest about it, and never tried to hide it

Perhaps this thread should get back on track?

 

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

 

It was blue twice, so while I agree mistakes can be made, in this case, it was either made TWICE on the same book, if it is trimmed.

 

But I dont think it is, so hence the mistake was made once saying it was trimmed.

 

Whether it was one mistake or two. The problem is how Dan was treated, the fact that CGC has no established practice/protocol for dealing with mistakes, and that they are able to dismiss or impose things on their customers who have no choice but to accept it.

So had Dan's book come back at say 6.5 with a blue label would we be calling it a mistake or just good fortune? How many books have been resubmitted and gotten higher grades? Do we hear about those? I'm not trying to be smart, I'm being sincere. Do we ever hear about books being re-submitted that come back at a higher grade? And I'm not referring to those that get pressed or dry cleaned.

When I originally cracked the 6.0 Blue - I thought it was at least a 6.5. As it turns out it got a 7.0.

I don't know what happened to the book after I sold it in the Purple slab. Perhaps it got a little damaged when the new owner took it out of the slab, maybe a dinged corner in shipment to Florida

Except for that crease, it was a beautiful book. The person I bought it from is SUPER pickey about his books, so that just confirmed my opinion

I don't rely on CGC to tell me what the grade is, I need them to tell me whether its been monkeyed with or not

I can look at a CGC graded 6.0 and decide whether I think its a 6.0 or not, (hell Ive managed to make a second income out of it) I cant tell whether its CT, trimmed, pieces added..... etc

Questions for Spider-Dan:

1. If the new owner sells to CGC at $3500, are they making a profit?

2. How does this make you feel?

3. Has CGC reached out to compensate for the difference between your sale price and $3500?

1 - The sale was private, so the sale price must be too

2 - I sold the book for what I thought was fair, so I have no feeling one way or the other. My only feeling is I would hope is that the buyer is happy with his purchase

3 - While CGC is in talks with the buyer, the only response I got from CGC was on Sunday - " Wow, that is very disappointing if it's the same book. I will look into it further on Tuesday as I will be out of the office tomorrow"

Like I said before, I sold the book and washed my hands to the whole thing. When the buyer contacted me with this info, I felt obligated to update anyone who was involved in the original thread.

I believe the book is UN-TRIMMED and NO WAY would I sell it to CGC for $3500.

I wish I could buy the book back ,and resub it in 6 months or so and see what happens

It's fairly common knowledge that CGC's resto detection has gotten better over the years - I think it's much more likely that this was a restored book sitting in a blue label slab than the other way around.

 

Common knowledge.....or common misconception?

 

 

Common sense? The more one practices something, generally speaking, the better one gets at whatever that is.

That was the conclusion when it ended up in a purple label last time. Its because CGC has gotten so much better at detecting resto over the years. OK, I can buy that

1 month later.... POOF its in a Blue slab

That's all im sayin

The buyer is a boardie. Why is he not on here speaking for himself? What was and was not said between him and CGC would be a lot more credible coming from him then it is coming secondhand from Dan.

I agree

I envision another scenario where The CGC purchases the JIM, attaches a thin chain to the top two corners, then uses it as an in-house dunce cap by making any employee who up wear it around his or her neck for the day.

Now that's a

But, while CGC has done right to rectify THIS book, and in that I mean, literally all they can do. What they havent done, is address any of the ISSUES which the situation has raised.

 

I'd like to seem them address the issues involved, and though I am HIGHLY SKEPTICAL, wonder if they realize they cannot indefinitely use ambiguity and obfuscation to bludgeon their customers.

 

Opening up for more transparency is coming, dont know when, and dont know how, but it will eventually come. As in all things in life, it likely wont be adopted until its forced upon them, and at much greater cost/consequence, then if smart actions were taken earlier.

 

Ok, I'll bite. What, exactly, are the other issues that have been raised here?

 

CGC made a mistake and graded a trimmed book as unrestored. They don't claim to be infallible and I'm sure this won't be the last time they screw up. What matters (to me, at least) is how they act when mistakes like this are brought to their attention and as far as I can tell, they're doing exactly what people wanted them to - admit they made a mistake & try to make the submitter whole.

 

Apart from Kav's nonsense ramblings, what am I missing here?

The book was graded 3 times (of course I don't know if it was ever graded before I got it) It came back Blue twice and Purple once. Shouldn't the assumption be it's Blue??

Buyer said it was OK to share

- As of 9am this morning CGC wanted the book to look it over again and make a determination. Offered buyer $3500 to buy the book outright.

- Buyer does not respond to CGC as he wants to keep the book for his collection (his intentions the entire time)

- CGC makes a statement around 5pm stating they are in the process of buying the book back, and it is DEFINATELY trimmed

What to believe?? Maybe I'm the one being April Fooled

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks for responding. I too would love to know when you have the book in hand

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

 

I actually updated a few pages back...... I have no update.

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

I haven't heard a peep

 

I don't really expect to

 

I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you.

CGC is in discussions with the buyer