Spider-Dan

Don't people get banned for threats? Don't people get banned for being told they get banned for threats and continue with threats?

 

Was it a boardie? What was the threat?

I think it was off board (youtube)...but I'm pretty sure it was started because he had too much "white space" in his sig line.

 

hint hint

Dan and I have reached a deal. I am purchasing the book in a new arrangement that is agreeable to us both.

I would like to publicly apologize to Dan. His integrity as a dealer should not be put into question. His willingness to work with me on this new deal demonstrates he is also a stand up guy.

Personally, I have learned a lot from this ordeal. I will be more careful with future large transaction purchases. I hope my favorite sellers will continue to sell to me. My checks don't bounce !

Thanks for all the insightful discussion. I appreciate the fact that nothing got too personal. Also, Iawyers are now my favorite Boardies ().

Thanks everyone. Love these boards.

---Bob

Bob made good on his deal, and that's all I could ask for. If anyone has seen Bob's collection, this book should fit in nicely!

Not sure if I need to, but I officially withdraw my request for Bob to be placed on ANY lists, and Thank him for working with me

So a guy placed a in my sales thread for Deadly Class Eh Variants and edited his post two days later, removing the

 

After I pointed it out to him he said he was getting the same books from a different source. I than shut down that difference source and he said he would make right on the original

 

I don't want to sell books to this guy. Ever.

 

So I'm assuming that since he said he will pay for the books I can't put him on the PL and have no further recourse?

 

While he may be a scumbag you don't want to deal with, I don't think it's probation worthy.

 

If this isn't PL worthy what is?? Why do we even have this list?

 

 

It's totally probation worthy. The problem is, there's got to be a way to get off the PL for the guy. That would force Jimmy to take his payment and ship him his books. If he offers to do that and Jimmy refuses he comes off the list. Since Jimmy doesn't want to deal with him, since he's threatened to scam Jimmy, he could put him on the list but then he'd come right off when he offered to pay.

 

Jimmy's better off not dealing with him at all, and he knows that. He's certainly a wild card but the way the PL list works Jimmy would be forced to deal with him in order to follow the protocol. That's a bad idea for Jimmy.

That makes sense - I see now

So a guy placed a in my sales thread for Deadly Class Eh Variants and edited his post two days later, removing the

 

After I pointed it out to him he said he was getting the same books from a different source. I than shut down that difference source and he said he would make right on the original

 

I don't want to sell books to this guy. Ever.

 

So I'm assuming that since he said he will pay for the books I can't put him on the PL and have no further recourse?

 

While he may be a scumbag you don't want to deal with, I don't think it's probation worthy.

If this isn't PL worthy what is?? Why do we even have this list?

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

 

If Dan wasn't sure he should have never said anything. Once he said it he's got to own it all the way down the line if it turns out to be wrong. He'd want the same as a buyer, any of us would.

 

I see a similarity...neither should be forwarded in the sale of a 5 figure book if you aren't prepared as a seller to stand behind that statement when it turns out to be wrong.

 

It's called inducement and, regardless of qualifiers.

 

 

Bottom line for me, I would be 100% with Dan on this one without that opinion of it not being a stain having been made prior to agreement and sale. Once that happens he's got to back it up whether shown to be true or false.

 

I can't, in good conscience, side with Dan for taking a hard line stance to hold Bob, word for word, to what he said in making the deal and then (in the same breath) fault Bob for taking a hard line stance to hold Dan, word for word, to what he said in making the deal including the statements about the stain not being one.

 

 

 

 

I should have been more clear: I was thinking about this in the general context of a seller owning what they say, not in relation to this Dan/Bob matter.

 

In my view, if the facts were the same apart from the statement on the stain being as set out in 2), then a buyer shouldn't be able to withdraw in the event there's a stain.

 

I don't agree that you have to own every single statement of opinion all the way - it depends on exactly what you say. Otherwise you leave a seller in an impossible position - if they are asked a question and they are not absolutely 100% sure of the answer, they're supposed to just not even express an opinion?

 

What Dan said the second time was an opinion. He stated the first one as fact. That is why books should not be sold that are not in the hand of the seller so he can check them and verify the questions as fact.

 

Well, I don't agree that books should have to be in hand, for the reasons I wrote above. Also, there's no guarantee that you'd be able to answer a question definitively in every case, even if you did have the book. Sometimes, it's going to come down to an opinion.

 

 

yes, it should come down to some opinion. After all, books are graded and priced based on opinion, but if an item is misrepresented, be it accidental or minute, the buyer should have a way out of the transaction. Especially since Dan did not state an opinion in the PGM thread, he stated an opinion as a verified fact. It was not a verified fact, it was an opinion.

 

How can you misrepresent your own opinion?

 

If I sell a raw book and say "in my opinon, this would grade CGC 8.0", and someone buys it and it comes back a CGC 7.5, you're saying they should get a refund? Nonsense.

 

But if I say "there is no moisture damage anywhere." That is not opinion, that is fact

I believe that fact to still be true. It is not moisture damage according to CGC

I'm going to ask a stupid question (yes, I know everything that comes out of my mouth is stupid and therefore I don't need the qualifier) but at any point before the notes, did Bob mention anything about the stain? We know it was brought up in the thread by Finecollector but I hadn't seen anything in the PMs shown that the stain or possible stain was of any concern to Bob BEFORE he got the notes.

 

Not that it matters in most peoples eyes, but the "stain" was NEVER brought up during any of our PM's Surprisingly hardly any questions were asked.

 

This is the problem I have with letting Bob off the hook (unless Dan wants to let him off) Bob is a sophisticated buyer, he knows what he is doing. I would suggest that he has probably made more then 2 5 figure book deals. He had access to several pictures showing the book raw (including interior pictures) and Finecollector asked about the stain.

 

Now I focused on corporate and contracts law in Law School (Burn the Lawyer!) and restatement 209 is just screaming in the back of my head. For those of you that don't know it it deals with the statement of terms and what is/is not included in the deal. We assume that this is a final agreement on the terms because there is no mention of the stain by the buyer and no return policy question. So neither of those issues are applicable. The deal was 2 books (one of which is an FF1 the other known only to Buyer and Seller) and Cash (an unknown amount but known to B and S) in exchange for a CGC graded 8.0 JIM 83. That's it. I think talk of the stain and return policies has to end because there is no evidence that either existed in this case. Just my

Jaybuck, I always value your input because you seem to be a level-headed guy who takes into account the evidence and arguments from both sides (you're a lawyer! ).

 

But in this instance, what if Bob relied on Dan's representations between the PGM thread and the sales thread that there were NO stains on the book and that caused him not to ask any further questions re: a possible stain? Would that change your opinion at all?

 

Can everyone agree that all other things being equal, a book WITH a stain is worth less, price wise or personal appeal wise, than one without a stain?

I disagree with that. GPA doesn't break down 8.0 with stain, 8.0 with marvel chipping. Any we as the comic community have made GPA the site we all rely on for values

I'm going to ask a stupid question (yes, I know everything that comes out of my mouth is stupid and therefore I don't need the qualifier) but at any point before the notes, did Bob mention anything about the stain? We know it was brought up in the thread by Finecollector but I hadn't seen anything in the PMs shown that the stain or possible stain was of any concern to Bob BEFORE he got the notes.

 

Not that it matters in most peoples eyes, but the "stain" was NEVER brought up during any of our PM's Surprisingly hardly any questions were asked.

 

 

Well you were pretty clear it wasn't a stain, maybe that's why no one asked about it after you made your statements.

 

A lot of people seem to by analyzing every single word to insinuate I mis-lead any potential buyers...

 

What about the word "moisture"?? I was asked if it was moisture, as I turns out CGC did NOT call it "moisture" damage. Hence my statement in the PGM thread is true

 

 

So it's other people that are analzing every single word.

 

You didn't try to mislead anyone. You were just flat wrong.

 

If you want to get into the definition of "is" you may be missing the point.

 

You want to hold Bob's feet to the fire over his words and statements but you want a pass on being dead wrong on whether that was a stain.

I now know I am wrong about it being a stain. I've not denied that during any of these discussions.

At the time of sale I gave my opinion to the best of my knowledge

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

 

Funny thing your post count is 95% Sales Forum.

 

Mine? Funny? Why

 

It's obvious your main objective is only to sell comics on this forum. Nothing else matters.

Buying and Selling yes. Sorry I don't waste people's time with "I'd buy this if I didn't buy the same book last week" or "That's nicer than my....."

And for this discussion, that's totally irrelevant. That was a dig at GIJOE for a PM thread we had going

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

 

Funny thing your post count is 95% Sales Forum.

Mine? Funny? Why

I'm going to ask a stupid question (yes, I know everything that comes out of my mouth is stupid and therefore I don't need the qualifier) but at any point before the notes, did Bob mention anything about the stain? We know it was brought up in the thread by Finecollector but I hadn't seen anything in the PMs shown that the stain or possible stain was of any concern to Bob BEFORE he got the notes.

 

Not that it matters in most peoples eyes, but the "stain" was NEVER brought up during any of our PM's Surprisingly hardly any questions were asked.

 

 

Well you were pretty clear it wasn't a stain, maybe that's why no one asked about it after you made your statements.

A lot of people seem to by analyzing every single word to insinuate I mis-lead any potential buyers...

What about the word "moisture"?? I was asked if it was moisture, as I turns out CGC did NOT call it "moisture" damage. Hence my statement in the PGM thread is true

I'm going to ask a stupid question (yes, I know everything that comes out of my mouth is stupid and therefore I don't need the qualifier) but at any point before the notes, did Bob mention anything about the stain? We know it was brought up in the thread by Finecollector but I hadn't seen anything in the PMs shown that the stain or possible stain was of any concern to Bob BEFORE he got the notes.

Not that it matters in most peoples eyes, but the "stain" was NEVER brought up during any of our PM's Surprisingly hardly any questions were asked.

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

 

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

 

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

 

Regardless of whether you saw the stain or not, the stain WAS present, and you said it was not there. You did not say "I think" you said "There is no moisture stains anywhere on it"

 

 

You were wrong on that fact, be it accidental, and you must stand by that statement and its consequences

 

In fairness, that was in the PGM, not the sales thread though.

 

But he linked the PGM thread to the sales thread and basically said "go check here for grade guesses"

 

If he said in a thread in which people guessed grades "There are no moisture stains anywhere on it" that should not change now that he is trying to sell the book.

But I never said this...

 

I know, all my books are sucky

Now we are even

But I can't look past "I don't think it's a stain".

When the question was raised in the FS thread, "could that be a stain?", other potential buyers have said they now thought a stain was possible, regardless of the sellers response.

So that puts the onus on the buyer to negotiate an out if that possibility arises.

 

Unfortunately I'm too tired to go through Speedy's locked thread and find out how many people wrote "new people don't understand how seriously we take the Takeit guy"

 

Value of the transaction or boardmember status shouldn't be a factor.

 

 

 

Two things that stick out to me:

 

1) The owner and seller is in the best possible position to give an opinion on whether something like this is a stain. He owns the books, held the book, took pictures, and offered his opinion. If he doesn't know he shouldn't give an opinion on something that could very well sway a buyer into agreeing to buy.

 

2) Once an owner makes a statement of opinion that could work in his favor to push a sale forward, he MUST stand behind that statement. Thus, if it turns out to be incorrect or false (regardless of intent), he must realize that his opinion had a hand in creating the agreement for sale and, now that the opinion has been proven false, one of the underpinnings of the original agreement has been destroyed.

 

Once self-serving opinions by the seller get thrown into the mix the onus lands squarely on the seller if those opinions as to a material defect are later proven false.

 

I don't know. Do you see a difference between:

 

1) I don't think it's a stain; and

 

2) I don't think it's a stain, but I can't be sure?

 

The PGM thread (linked in the sales OP) from a week prior to the sale was more specific.

 

In fairness, Dan, you did say "No moisture stains any where on it"

 

That is different from "I don't think it's a stain."

Going to back 30 pages... I DID NOT see the stain when I had the book in hand!

When the book went up for sale and I was questioned again, all I had were pics to look at, so I answered the best I could. I still don't think its "moisture" damage

whew! Having just read the whole thing, it sounds like an unfortunate situation for both sides. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how both Dan and Bob feel. This is one of those gray area transactions and I think both parties should just walk away and call it a day.

 

This situation should serve as an object lesson for some of the pitfalls of simply buying a comic based solely on that big number in the upper left corner and selling before having the book in hand.

Perfect analysis. (thumbs u

 

So, Dan and Bob, what do we do now?

Bob extended the olive branch and opened up PM's

I am waiting to hear back

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

 

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

 

Hey bro, read my posts! At least 20% are coherent!

Stupid question: Wouldn't SpiderDan have been able to see the stain before he submitted the book to CGC?

The stain is so light I didn't notice it.

 

OK, thanks.

This must be how one gets their post count to 2700 in 6 months

This.

1. Don't sell comics before you have them in hand and can inspect them to answer any questions.

Additionally anyone selling a book of this value should pony up and include the CGC notes. It would eliminate any confusion. Even if they are shared via PM to any prospective buyers.

 

When spending $400+ to have a book graded, CGC should include the graders notes and not gouge another $15 out someone spending that kind of cash

In the few years I've been a member, Ive NEVER seen graders notes included in a sales thread. Ive seen a lot of personal opinions... prefect registration, tough book in high grade, bright colors... etc. All which could be debated

If the seller's description needs to be infinitely accurate, then all buyers will always have an out. Also, there is nothing in the rules about having to provide an accurate description of all flaws. All the rules say is "List scans or information about the grade of the offered books."

 

Dan shouldn't have said anything about that stain if he didn't have it in hand and didn't know what it was, but he didn't lie, and he didn't say it wasn't a stain. He said he thought it was the light.

 

It's a fine line. How about taking it to the opposite extreme. If the book was sold with front and back cover scans and came back from CGC with "Pages Missing" would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter whether the seller "thought" or "knew" it wasn't stained. What matters is that the book had a serious flaw (in the buyers opinion) that was not included in the books description.

 

I think the rules not mentioning the book be accurately described is a pedantic point.

That's not the situation. He was selling a CGC 8.0 Blue, not a raw comic that might have missing pages.

 

That's not relevant. A grade is just a number. It doesn't tell the whole story and what some see as a serious defect others might not.

He's selling a CGC graded comic on CGC's site, the grade is king. And the rules stipulate info about grade and pics. And the accepted wisdom of the boards is that is king. You said it's a fine line...the difference between this situation and a raw comic that could have pages missing is demarcated with a triple line drawn with the fattest of sharpies.

 

If, in this situation, there are other factors that you feel are more important, you should speak up before hand, with something like pending graders' notes. I've never heard anyone suggest that all Board deals are pending graders' notes that meet a buyer's particular preferences.

I like this guy

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

 

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

 

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

 

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

How so?

 

Just by GPA values

 

His worth 18K - Mine worth 15K

 

 

That's not really a loss though...you can't "lose" something you didn't have in the first place right?

If it was inappropriate for me to disclose that I apologize. I figure instead of answering all these PM's I would post it

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

 

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

 

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

 

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

How so?

Just by GPA values

His worth 18K - Mine worth 15K

Im going to sleep on it. I was hoping to hear from the buyer, but I haven't.

Unfortunately some of us have jobs other than comics, so Im gone

Thanks to everyone, for or against my submission, who got involved in this discussion.

Since everyone is curious - the cancelling of this transaction has me at a 3K+ loss

Sharon is right about having the book in hand prior to the sale, it would help to avoid certain situations like these.

 

The book turned out to have a flaw that was unknown to the buyer and seller alike. The seller assumed the flaw was something different. Once the book was in hand and the flaw became known the buyer should not have to complete the transaction.

 

My

+1 (thumbs u

 

So what do we do? Does Bob just go on the PL unless he buys it? There's no vote for this, right?

 

I DO NOT THINK BOB SHOULD BE PUT ON THE PL. This is not his fault or Dan's fault. You too need to walk away before you forever hate each other.

 

+1 It's not worth getting bent out of shape. Seller keeps a beautiful book and buyer moves on.

 

No, this is my total honest opinion:

 

Bomber bob: You made a trade in which you knew you weren't coming out on top, but you wanted a nice book. You got buyers remorse on a book and tried to adjust the offer. For that you are at fault. Then you found out about the stain. That is neither of your fault's.

 

Spider Dan: You had a good thing coming. A sweet trade in which you came out on top. Then Bob wanted to adjust it to all cash, the same thing you would have originally accepted, but you got greedy and wanted the trade back. For this you are at fault. Then Bob found out about the stain. That is neither of your fault's.

 

 

You both made a mistake in the transaction, and there was an unfortunate problem with the stain. At this point it is best for both of you to totally walk away from this situation. It will only become a grudge you will both stew on. Shake hands and move on. A comic should never ruin a friendship.

 

 

Wanting to stick to YOUR offer makes ME greedy?? If I offered you $100 for one of your MOS 18's you agree, then I decide I only want to pay $80. Does it make you "greedy" to want the $100 we agreed on??

That's crazy

I just want to re-post one of my early posts in this thread...

 

Bob seems like a nice guy, so I hate that it has to come to this. I don't do a lot of trading, and I was kind of enjoying it.

 

But their are consequences for our actions. If their weren't, people would back out all the time.

 

Dan, I find your answers very honest,you admitted that Bob's offer was a better deal than what you asked for originally and you admitted selling before you had the book back so you could maximize your profit. I applaud you for that.

 

However you must see that your actions also have consequences. You sold a book before you had it in hand, and before you had the graders notes. You made a statement about a "stain" that turned out to be in error.

 

 

So, I think there are errors on both sides.

 

Bob's error was making an offer of a trade to begin with. This is why I don't love trades, i'd always have traders regret.

 

However, I can absolutely see where his offer of cash should have solved the problem, he was offering full asking price. You on the other hand saw a better deal and you wanted that. The fact that you later would have accepted the full price (after getting the book back) just further muddies the waters.

 

The end part, the part with the stain, well that's more on you.

 

I would really love to see you both just walk away and call it a day.

 

I don't see any other reasonable solution here.

Just so your clear on the timeline Sharon

I did offer to take Bob's cash offer AFTER his 2nd attempt to keep his books. It was obvious if he wasn't going to let go of the books we made the deal on. Which was BEFORE I got the book back and Bob got the notes

Sharon is right about having the book in hand prior to the sale, it would help to avoid certain situations like these.

 

The book turned out to have a flaw that was unknown to the buyer and seller alike. The seller assumed the flaw was something different. Once the book was in hand and the flaw became known the buyer should not have to complete the transaction.

 

My

+1 (thumbs u

 

So what do we do? Does Bob just go on the PL unless he buys it? There's no vote for this, right?

 

I DO NOT THINK BOB SHOULD BE PUT ON THE PL. This is not his fault or Dan's fault. You too need to walk away before you forever hate each other.

I don't hate anyone, nor will I. This PM was sent to the buyer after the 2nd attempt to change the deal

Just so we are clear none of my PM'S where sent with any venom. Hard to tell in a message

I just want to re-post one of my early posts in this thread...

Bob seems like a nice guy, so I hate that it has to come to this. I don't do a lot of trading, and I was kind of enjoying it.

 

But their are consequences for our actions. If their weren't, people would back out all the time.