mikenyc

At least you a have sense of humor Bob :: On these boards if the seller is new or has no track record of sales than I don't think a PM asking for the shipping time is inappropriate. If it's a known seller, who rather spend time modeling banana hammocks for instance than shipping in a timely manner, you know you are going to get the books, although it my take a fortnight. I also believe that no matter how encompassing the guidelines get there will still be situations that fall out of their purview. In those unique situations use caution, or come up with a prearranged plan with the seller.

Not to play devils advocate, but if there is only one member who is upset with the 30 day rule wouldn't it behoove that member and really any member who disagrees with any aspect of the guidelines to specify any differing rules in their individual sales thread. It's like Federal guidelines, which are basically the starting point, usually more lax, and then State guidelines, usually more stringent, that build upon the Federal. So you can't violate any board rules, but you must adhere to any further stipulations the seller imposes if you buy from their sales thread. If you feel seller is being unreasonable then vote with your wallet and don't buy anything. This feels like it is becoming contentious for no reason. Please try to remember that these boards are enjoyment for some and not just a business opportunity.

A pirate, history relates Was scuffling with some of his mates When he slipped on a cutlass Which rendered him nutless And practically useless on dates

I am confused? Why would he have lipstick on his tool? And, what kind of tool is it? You need to be more specific so I can understand please. Five little monkeys jumping on the bed, one fell off and bumped his head. Momma called the doctor and the doctor said, "no more monkeys jumping on the bed." 39 posts to go! (thumbs u

Trust me, I want to agree with you but experience has shown me it is not always that simple. Once, on a Board transaction, I actually called the auction house the Boardie mentioned he got the book from to obtain his phone number as he was not responding to my PM's. FYI, it actually worked ! I surrender but please note I did not specifically ask for 14 days. I am simply asking that the buyer get some more protection from all this. A seller is not out anything if a Buyer does not pay but a buyer is out cash if a seller does not ship. I would be happy if there could be some general shipping guidelines tighter than 30 days + 72 hours. Heck, even a negative feedback thread would help a little. I succumb to the masses. Stop being so weak willed and insecure.

Why make constricting policies that will require more board interpretation? 30 days from to my longbox. Done and done Now you are adding another layer for something to go awry and not adhere to. Seller ships books in 7 days but they take longer to arrive. Buyer nominates to PL list? Books arrive three days later. We have wasted our time, and no one would agree to it if it was a seasoned seller. Like Sharon said. K.I.S.S. I do appreciate your hard work, and succinct listing of the revised policies, but this is starting to seem like more rules, for the sake of more rules.

There once was a fellow O'Doole Who found little red spots on his tool His Doctor a cynic said Get out of me clinic, And wipe off that lipstick you fool! I <3 Limericks

I wholeheartedly disagree. People use this board to announce their ebay, clink, pedigree, etc, listings all the time; if I go through one of these outside venues to complete a deal, it's still a deal being done between two board members, which means that it's still relevant for the board to be informed if one party doesn't live up to their end of the deal. Wholeheartedly sounds so severe.

I wholeheartedly disagree. People use this board to announce their ebay, clink, pedigree, etc, listings all the time; if I go through one of these outside venues to complete a deal, it's still a deal being done between two board members, which means that it's still relevant for the board to be informed if one party doesn't live up to their end of the deal. I agree on both points. It is hard to make a call on an off board transaction without being able to see any evidence. But obviously since we can advertise our books here, we should still be held accountable for off forum transactions. I agree with the agreement. :: The problem, for which there is no ideal workaround, is reputation becomes the crux of the argument for most transactions that occur outside the posts on these boards. This in and of itself is not bad, quite the opposite, but it does open up the perception of playing favorites, good 'ol boy network that others have referenced.

Indeed. If any case/s deviates from the tried and tested method (which works very well as is at the moment) then treat it/them on a case by case basis. Just my tuppence worth. Fell free to ignore at will. I agree 100 percent. I would also like to see only transactions that occur on or through these boards. Not your lemonade stand deal gone bad.

Can't you rephrase that question and spread it over 10 lengthy paragraphs? Please stop!!!!!! :sumo: This is very very very, that's right a three very, serious business.

I just work here.

I actually do have a problem with this. If we enforce it then we are making ourselves the judges of a book's value. I know it sucks on the surface to say that. I do understand the permutations. But I will continue to stipulate that the PL process is to oversee the transactions themselves, not the future outcome. For example, suppose Jethro sells Granny a book for $300. Granny delays the sale. A month has gone by. Another couple of weeks have gone by before Granny admits her mistake. In that time the book has gone from $300 to $200. Granny pays the $100 difference to stay off the PL. She gets the book. Fast forward a few months months later. Due to whatever circumstances: a new movie, a hitherto undiscovered "first appearance", whatever - the book is now steadily going for $600. Does Jethro have the right to say "Yes, Granny paid me the $100 loss I took on trying to sell the book, but now it is going for $600 and Granny got it for that book. I want more compensation."? We cannot, as a group, dictate prices or make ANY decision beyond what was in the original deal. If we do that we are in for some very muddy water. This is what I said twenty posts ago that you disagreed with. I said decide expenses and assign a dollar amount and it would be slippery slope. Different words same meaning. The original deal doesn't include gas money, food, a spelunking kit, or anything else other than the two people and the books in question. That is it. And furthermore it should only be on transactions that occur on these boards. As far as transactions only on these boards - that has been gone through and it was agreed upon that that transactions between board members, regardless of the venue, are subject to the PL. If if you want to go through the changing or clarifcation of the process, as you can witness here, then get the agreed upon rules changed - please feel free to do so. Correct me if I am wrong but you wanted to leave it up to the accuser to make the conditions as far as extra expenses go. (If I am wrong please let me know and I will gladly retract.) I see no difference there, as this requires the board members to agree on that condition. Which means the board members will have to agree to any condition set forth by the proven offended party. That is a slippier slope. As far as the rest I need to read back. Well I started to read back but too much crapola in their. Can you please encapsulate your take and my objection? Yes I was part of the mental midget crew bickering with RMA but that is over, apologies were given and now the conversation will be constructive. I am trying to listen to what everyone is saying. Here POV, I think that we are on the same page, your end result was my beginning points so I think we are in agreement.

I actually do have a problem with this. If we enforce it then we are making ourselves the judges of a book's value. I know it sucks on the surface to say that. I do understand the permutations. But I will continue to stipulate that the PL process is to oversee the transactions themselves, not the future outcome. For example, suppose Jethro sells Granny a book for $300. Granny delays the sale. A month has gone by. Another couple of weeks have gone by before Granny admits her mistake. In that time the book has gone from $300 to $200. Granny pays the $100 difference to stay off the PL. She gets the book. Fast forward a few months months later. Due to whatever circumstances: a new movie, a hitherto undiscovered "first appearance", whatever - the book is now steadily going for $600. Does Jethro have the right to say "Yes, Granny paid me the $100 loss I took on trying to sell the book, but now it is going for $600 and Granny got it for that book. I want more compensation."? We cannot, as a group, dictate prices or make ANY decision beyond what was in the original deal. If we do that we are in for some very muddy water. This is what I said twenty posts ago that you disagreed with. I said decide expenses and assign a dollar amount and it would be slippery slope. Different words same meaning. The original deal doesn't include gas money, food, a spelunking kit, or anything else other than the two people and the books in question. That is it. And furthermore it should only be on transactions that occur on these boards.

You heard about this? Who told you? :: This is how the Off Topic effluence begins. As was previously brought up, this is a forum for discussing Probation issues. Lets keep it that way. Don't blame me. I've been a good boy tonight; trying to constructively add to the community. (thumbs u

You heard about this? Who told you? ::

In honor of Sharon, if a transaction cannot be completed due to non payment after purchasing a book, then subsequently, after x amount of time the seller resells the book, the member who renegged will permanently be on the list. But if it's important enough to them to try and make right by the boards, then after meeting agreed upon criteria, there name is changed to a color to differentiate then from other PL members and a notation is made next to their ID.

It's a tricky topic, but one that has come up before on the boards (man, I feel like an old-timer now with the "this has been discussed XX times before"). Someone will sell raw books on here, but keep the scans dark to hide the spine stress lines. The books arrive, and it comes up how it was clear now what took place. But it may not always work that easy. I think where the Lord High Protector POV (his new and earned title) is going with this is if someone sent you scans ahead of time that made you take the trip, and it was clear once you arrived the books were far off from what was represented in the scans, there is a potential to claim unnecessary expenses. But I can see your point how this is not always going to be easy. Thats the rub. If you want to play court you can't pick and choose the aspects that forward your position and ignore others. In any he said she said you have to look at the facts and as a whole the board makes and informed decsision. As others have pointed out I am still learning, but the list seems to serve it's purpose quite well, and the watchdogs wouldn't allow someone without merit to be placed on the PL. But to start getting out of the basic transaction into damages, etc just won't work. Unless we all pony up some dough and sign pre-arbitration agreements, hire an arbitrator, and fly in the two parties to present their cases and have an agreement handed down, every time someone renegs on their X Force 1 book sale.

Good point! To play devils advocate, in this scenario now you have to decide that the scans were not a true representation of the books. How do you do that if you don't physically have the books in hand. You can't just take someone's word for it. Let's say you do that, now you have to decide if there were damages, if there were then you have to assign a value to those damages. I know there are plenty of smart guys and gals, with plenty of time on their hands, but there is not a proper framework for this level of detail to operate in. Compare it to a court of law with a definitive final word, Judge, two sole voices presenting cases, prosecuting and defending council, and 12 silent witnesses, who then deliberate amongst themselves. There are endless rules and regulations that govern conduct, there is case law and, so on and so forth. If the outcome is not to your liking there are at least channels that exist for appeals. You are asking way to much of an Internet chat board, IMHO.

I tend to agree with this as well. If a transaction was not concluded that day, for whatever reason, the trip was a fact finding mission. If you had the intention of buying the books the money should have been in hand and the deal concluded. No transaction took place so how can you say that the expenses were the result of something that never occurred.

Two other points. First is where do you draw the line? Now let's say that Jasper contacts Anthony about some books he has. Jasper asks for scans. Anthony obliges and sends them. Jasper replies to Anthony and asks to meet up so he can purchase the books. Anthony drives, eats, etc, but when he gets to the meeting Jasper is unhappy with the books in hand, and changes his mind. At some point there is a cost of doing business. Call it overhead, call it what you will, but not every transaction works out exactly in your favor, or equally for both parties. The possible scenarios are endless and are to open ended to be decided to that level of detail on these forums. Second is how do you assign a dollar value to the damages? What is the value of someones time? If I drive for three hours only to have a sale go bad is my time worth the same as someone who makes a fraction of what I do? What about mileage on my car vs. a car that is much nicer or worse? These boards are clearly not equipped, nor should they be, to make judgements and assign value to those judgements in any sort of consistent fashion. I think you're spot on in clearly defining the time frame before a person is put up for discussion and the amount of time after the person is put up to defend themselves before they are added to the list. How to come off is much more convoluted.

The problem with the expense aspect is that you are adding new variables to what would otherwise be a clean problem. Now, instead of deciding whether a party is in the wrong for a particular book sale or purchase, you now must decide whether on not an expense or perceived expense actually occurred and if it did occur, is the causality there to justify that expense as being part of the transaction. i.e. Brad sets up a meet with HolyGhost through PM to check out some books. Brad leaves work early, drives a couple hours to see the books. On the way he grabs lunch and then meets with HG. After agreeing on a price for the books Brad drives back home. Next day HG calls Brad and says sorry friend books were sold to someone else, no harm no foul. Now Brad lost a few hours at work, gas money, mileage on his car, food bill, cost of his time, etc. He did incur some expenses to make the trip without anything to show for it. But what if Brad did the same thing and when he saw the books thought they were overpriced and overgraded and decided to walk away. I can see bringing in a whole new set of circumstances as being a slippery slope. If the expense is a direct correlation to the transaction, shipping, insurance, supplies, etc, that would be predetermined, it can be included in the cost of making the damaged party whole. But to arbitrarily allow anyone to add expenses they feel are associated would grind this thing down even further.

I have just read through approximately 20 pages in this thread because I wanted to see how the status of the updated PL rules were coming along. In doing so I realized these two mental midgets have been having their "discussion" all afternoon. This is just sad and pathetic. Do they have nothing better to do??? Anyway, Povertyrow, I think the new PL rules are almost there. If there is anything you feel you need help with, please feel free to PM me. Or, here is a novel idea. You can post them here and those who would like to contribute could continue to do so. What do you add other than a snotty comment. At least the two mental midgets are mildly amusing. Go fist yourself (thumbs u

I'm the troll. :: Ok boy scout. (thumbs u