Mr.Mcknowitall

1 minute ago, Get Marwood & I said:

...although they could've been lesbians and the date later turned I suppose?

 

Anyway, Newton rings suck and we want them gone. 

"Whadda we want!"

"No newton rings!"

"Whendawe want em?"

"As soon as practically possible please"

Welllll, not exactly a demanding resolve, but certainly a display of British manners.....

6 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

A drag for the guy reading this that married her. His slab is infected and his wife is ugly. 

3 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

The problem being, with the boards there is so much information, that we sometimes miss certain parts, then questions get asked that may or may not have been addressed.  it still gets convoluted sometimes. No harm no foul   

No harm or foul. I was referring to the best approach toward the problem, by members, and the more informed we are about any possible reasons, and that a sister entity does not have the same problem with a comparable Holder, it is no so easy to dismiss the members complaining. 

4 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I think that we're saying the same thing. I think it is an uneven spread of plastic, CGC says that it is similar to a "phone screen protector", which of course no matter how much you squish and smush never ends up even all the way across and has air pockets; however phones that come with them and that are not peeled off, have no visible effects.

If it is the way it is put together, as I think you suggest, then that would seem positive as there should be an easy fix..... the inner well is not sturdy and comes in contact with the outer which is sturdy and doesn't move, or it is not flexible, causing where the plastics touch to not be even, causing air pockets just as a 'screen protector'?

Not exactly....why would the material touching be a cause....unless there is something in the quality of the material that causes it.

Look at PMG Holders. No Rings. same Entity. Same manufacturing process. Inert. No gassing. No contamination. Controlled heat/extrusion. Not same raw material. Light simply allows the human eye to observe the "flaws" in the material. I mentioned had anybody used a black light. There is a reason.

Just now, Get Marwood & I said:

Aha! Humble, not honest. I see that now. 

So, where noted should I read IMO as 'I'm a knowitall'?

Oh, wait....

1 minute ago, evilskip said:

 I don't send books off to CGC,  I buy them on the "secondary" market. But the Newton Rings may be the catalyst where I bail out of this area of collecting. If there is a CGC book listed on ebay, I'm going to start asking them if there are Newton Rings. Either that or just avoid buying books slabbed since 2016.

And we can sit here and debate the cause of Newton Rings until doomsday. The real point is, they are as ugly as your sister's prom date and detract from the look of the book.

Concur. Dissatisfied customers is the precursor of change. Informed dissatisfied customers improve that change.

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Changing the subject for a second, how does IMHO differ to IMO? Is not your opinion alone honest? Where noted, should I read IMO as 'I'm lying'?

H for humble...I am a humble kind of fellow.

11 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't know about light refraction, but I will say that Newton rings are caused by two plastics touching  Whether light causes this contact to show up, I do not know....

On my Moon Knight sketch it was basically a blank white cover with an ink sketch on top. The Newton Rings on it did not show as rainbow colors.... they looked more like air bubbles that were grey to a certain extent. I don't know if this was because there was no "color" to the book in the slab or not....but the rings muddied up the clarity to the point that it was really splotchy.

Give me a second and I'll get on my phone and upload pics as an example to this post...  all done @Mr.Mcknowitall

This reinforces my opinion. Thank you for the picture.

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't know about light refraction, but I will say that Newton rings are caused by to plastics touching  Whether light causes this contact to show up, I do not know....

On my Moon Knight sketch it was basically a blank white cover with an ink sketch on top. The Newton Rings on it did not show as rainbow colors.... they looked more like air bubbles that were grey to a certain extent. I don't know if this was because there was no "color" to the book in the slab or not....but the rings muddied up the clarity to the point that it was really splotchy.

Give me a second and I'll get on my phone and upload pics as an example to this post...  

IF you have a chance to read my earlier posts, I touch on the subject....contamination, type of material and manufacturing control, heat extrusion, etc. Plastic aint' plastic...until it is plastic. The light refraction is not the cause....it is a consequence. (Of course IMHO).

3 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I remember you saying you'd tried to discuss this with them, yes. I suspect you know more about it than they do. I would like to know what causes it Mr McD, for sure, out of interest. But the 'why' is a side issue to the main thrust of this poll. Getting back to my new car analogy, I don't care what caused them scratches. I just want them gone. And I want the garage owner to stop telling me that a small number of them are to be expected and acceptable. They're not.

 

 

The why is known, by the Host, IMHO. the Host can certainly enlighten the members, and explain why the PMG inert Holders do not have Rings, when the surfaces are in direct contact with each other, which seems to be in contradiction to the light refraction phenomenon. The side issue, unfortunately, is the issue.

21 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

We're up to 22 pages and the thread hasn't been locked or poofed. That's because we're all staying civil. Lets keep it that way is all I'm saying. Don't give them a reason to lock it 

I am certainly not doing so. I am being VERY serious, and if there is an impression otherwise, I can not control that.

21 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Yes, you can't slip paper in the new cases to reduce rings, the person who hinted it was possible never came back to clarify. I've tried myself to no avail.

That is exactly the info I wanted to know. Then there is not a method that can be used on the new Holders, like the old Holders. Thank you. That helps me and my position of the why a lot.

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Instead of taking pot shots at each other,

That was not my motivation. 

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

why not aim them at CGC. I

I did. We discussed that earlier in the Thread.

23 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Nuff said?

Not yet, and I will explain why. There is an understanding by our Host that there is a problem. the Host has stated it is a normal phenomenon and light refraction issue. The Host acknowledges there are "degrees" of the phenomenon, and some 'degrees" reach the threshold of what the Host deems is worthy of a do over. Granting for a moment that the Host has every business Right to set whatever conditions it wants in the matter, regardless of consequences, it is not progress.

Yes, I have been questioning the theory presented as the prevalent reason...a phenomenon of light refraction. I explained why I questioned this singular theory. The Host has certainly had  more than enough time....3 years?....to research the issue. I explained about polymers, co-polymers. Barex 210, heat extuded product, contamination, etc. Has the Host mentioned that there has been engineering research in this regard, and research into the product.... previously and presently......used for the Holders?

PMG and the Host (and NGC) are part of the same entity. At one time, there was a slight visual aberration with PMG slabs, that had a blue/green tint, it was not exactly unsightly and was certainly not a Newton problem by any stretch of the imagination. It was a bit of a clarity  problem on certain Notes, depending on the color of the Note.

Around March of 2016  or so, PMG came out with new Holders. It was (and is) an inert material. It is extremely high quality, and I would state the best available ...and matched only by the Mylar D that Denly's of Boston offered at the time. but as far as TPGs there was no better and in my opinion still isn't.

The Holders.... in their Construct...are sealed, and the surfaces in direct contact with each other. I should mention these holders were the 3rd Design, as I recall.

So, the newtons? Why not in this product?

7 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes, I thought they were sealed. 

Why would Mr. Namisgr suggest the method he did? I asked him if he had tried it, but he declined. Maybe he did not realize the holders were the new version, and/or misunderstood my question due to my admitted ignorance.

It was mentioned prior that the method can't be used with the new Holders, so I thought, maybe Namisgr knew a method to do it. so I asked.

I am still confused...can it or can it not be done? Another member kindly answered it can not be done. I assumed Namisgr knows this stuff a lot better than me.....obviously.....and had found a method that worked on the new Holders.

Another member mentioned that he was able to make the rings go away, and was nice enough to clarify that yes, he can make the rings reappear on the old Holders,by pressing together. i have not seen a comment that the same is true for the new Holders. So, either the new Holders with rings can not be "improved" without creative invasion of some type and, I assume a re-seal, which to me would be tampering and will not really solve the problem anyway, because it is possible that the rings would reappear with pressure, because....apparently to many...is that the phenomenon is due to the material in contact with each other (I am not in that camp, the reasons being as I discussed earlier in the thread.

To me, from a Market perspective, the introduction for the first time of a character, which the business entity hopes inspires the customer/collector/buyer to be interested in the character after it is first introduced and makes the customer want to purchase follow-on publications, defines a first appearance/introduction, etc. I don't think that necessarily has to be a drawing of the character; it could be a brief background/story line presentation also. I do think that first introduction has to give the character a name, though. 

10 minutes ago, namisgr said:

First, ask constructive questions to expect constructive answers.  You're way behind the curve in understanding the history and nature of the problem with the rings, much of which is written about at length already in different threads.

Thank you. I can appreciate your position of what a constructive question is. I will take your suggestion under advisement.

Just now, The Milkman said:

Absolutely, yes.  Take an old slab and push down on the front cover.  I bet you can get some rings to appear.  

Thank you. 

2 minutes ago, namisgr said:

Have you de-slabbed hundreds of comics?  Did you find examples where just the outer well had Newton rings?  How about just the inner well?  Can you share those examples?  If you don't have any photos, could you do this on a case you have and take before and after results, and identify the Holder (sic) and when you received it?  Have you done any of the things you asked about above, and if so do you have before and after examples that you could share?

 

No. I have not. I presented the questions because I am not experienced in such undertakings, as I have mentioned. I assumed you had done so, and was interested in the findings. If you do not wish to answer in a constructive manner, it is not a problem.

4 minutes ago, AndyJibb said:

This DOES NOT WORK on the newest holders, because they are completely sealed all the way around.  There is no way to slide or squeeze anything in between the plastic shell.  If you've ever held a new slab in your hand, you can quickly see this.

This trick worked on the old slabs because they were only sealed together on the corners.  I used the "slide a piece of paper in between" trick on a few books I had, and though it did work to get rid of the newton rings, I found that the paper often left scratches on the mylar.  So, even that old method wasn't perfect.

Thank you. When you say ".....get rid of the Newton rings...." what actually occurred? For instance, were you able to....for want of a different description..."duplicate the rings by pressure, i.e. pushing the shells back together? 

Has anyone used a black light?

1 hour ago, namisgr said:

Have you tried sliding a small wedge into the side to separate the outer well from contacting the inner well?

I am curious. Have you done this, and what was the result? Do you by any chance have before and after examples that you could share? If you have done so, what generation Holder was it? If you don't have any photos, is it possible you could do this on a case you have and take before and after results, and identify the Holder and when you received it?

1 hour ago, Gaard said:

I'm far from a scientist (actually, probably the farthest one can get), but didn't they change material in the past? Something about losing their Barex manufacturer. I have absolutely no idea if that makes a difference.

Discussed......yes, you could say it makes a difference.

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It is certainly your choice. A bit vindictive, and the stated reason for doing so a bit silly, since any member can access the list, but it is your Right to play Javert all you want.

It appears your performance could earn you an Oscar.

Center Game Theory