vaillant

Liam, hold yourself, as these are the covers to the last two issues: and this pretty much proves it probably wasn’t selling well… Now you have me wondering whether #13 contained the Cap story, if so I’d like to look for it. I do think it will be TOUGH.

BTW, Disneys "Disney's decision to go big into comics" as I seem to get from Bookery’s post, pretty much ended with the syndicated production, if we leave out Barks and a few important comic book authors. Disney stopped going big into comics in the US in the 1960s, while it started to go big into comics here (and internationally) thanks to our renowned italian school, starting as early as 1938, but in full bloom since the 1950s, thanks to pioneers like Federico Pedrocchi, which wrote the very first italian Disney stories pre-dating Barks’ work on the Ducks. You’re welcome! (thumbs u

Thanks Steve, but please try to set the example and refrain from personal judgement. I may agree or not with Robert Beerbohm attitude and comics study approaches, but while any kind of criticism is allowed, the replies by Mr Bedrock are in bad taste to say the least, also giving the current situation. And I won’t comment furtherly as I tend to agree with ciorac but don’t like the tone of the last posts…

This shows Alex Raymond’s influence on some of our first generation of authors, this is a panel from "Romano il Legionario", our own patriotic hero, a sort of Blackhawk or Airboy in reverse… And going to France, here’s Jacobs doing Gordon, before "Le Rayon U": And a page from "Le Rayon U", still showing the strong Foster influence: And then, "Saturno contro la Terra", one of the very first italian science fiction adventure comics (partially published in the USA in "Future Comics"):

Ahh, Max und Moritz! I still think you are talking of two different things. Bill is right about the evolution of comic books, which as a means owe pretty much everything to the bases laid in the Golden Age, but this won’t go for comics at large. In Italy, the true "Superman" has probably been Flash Gordon, way before italian authors and publishers developed their own paths: And this is the most prized collectible in Italy. It’s from 1933 and it represents the very first Disney publication conceived as a standalone comic book (landscape format, of course): An important chronology of our own comics' history (my favorite highlight is 1937, as "Il Vittorioso" is launched, the very first publication entirely centered on comics created in Italy – the two examples I posted are from that): http://www.fumetto100.it/ita/cronologia_1929-1938.asp

Well, Federico, that Sgt. Fury run is remarkable to say the least, and in that condition…

Two samples from Italian comics from the wartime period, 1942 and 1945 respectively. Authors are my beloved Sebastiano Craveri and Raffaele Paparella (among the very first stories depicting german SS soldiers after the liberation, and that is actually a "kid gang").

Yes, I was aware of "the funnies" term, most of the english terms have been widely used by italian critics and writers as well. Up to the 1960s-1970s (where a left-wing cultural area dominated comics criticism in Italy), "fumetti" (our term for comics) in general were constantly called "comics": "comics" was used a synonymous for "fumetti". Curiously, "bande dessinée" and "manga" (to quote the equivalent terms for two cultures where comics were prominent and have had/have a huge presence and local production) weren’t generally used a synonyous for "fumetti" and I think this is a good indicator of how much "comics" are identified as their beginnings as a genuine american product. As for my perception of an italian which truly grew up reading comics but – given my age – without a bias towards a specific position on their origin, I can tell you that I feel a prodund difference on how the newspaper syndicated strips and comic books were approached. This difference did not exist to such an extent in Italy, but surely the influence of classic strips, like Flash Gordon have been bigger than those of the bulk of the comic books production. Raymond has been the main influence on pioneering authors like our Kurt Caesar in Italy or Edgar P. Jacobs in France (see "The Rayon U", which predates Blake & Mortimer), but since Golden Age superheroes de facto did not appear until 1947, it was like "they weren’t there". A similar thing has happened to japanese comics, as they bloomed in the post-war japan in their modern form, and Osamu Tezuka was heavily influenced by 1920s and 1930s animation and by Geo McManus but not by comic books. Even the fact that Marvel comics never broke so hugely there is an indication of a different sensibility. "Spirit" is a very peculiar character as in fact it’s an "hybrid" between newspaper strip and comic book. Not exactly, but reading also Eisner’s intent at the time, you see what I mean.

How does "comic book" sound in english? Does it make the comics as a whole come to your mind, or does it evocate "comics" in general, comics as a medium? You are right as to me it calls to mind a specific image, that of the average sized comic book, portrait format, but not being a native englishmperson I was just wondering… I did not read Bob’s series of articles, anyway, so I was just trying to figure out where the dialogue was missing here…

Curious to see the Carnage 1st app and the McFarlane Spidey are translated as something in the vein of "Aracne" (transliterate from Greek), while all the others were inversely transliterated from English (not a greek word): "Spaider Man" (that "P" is a Rho, the Greek letter corresponding to our "R", while "X" means the sound "CH" – as in "AraCHne").

I was pretty sure I mentioned the thread to Federico, but it seems I didn’t… My bad.

I think there’s been a constant misunderstanding here, and I tried to highlight it, but with little response it seems… One thing is considering the history of comics, another one is to consider the history of a particular form of their publication, as comic books are for your market. No one would understand you if you talk about comic books abroad, since it basically remains a "format", while you can talk of comics on any level with people from each and every country (well, those which have had an indigenous comics tradition, at least, or a notable publishing history, like Scandinavia for example, where Phantom is a big character). So I don’t seem to get Bob Beerbohm was implying that the comic book specifically descended from 1800s publications, but comics surely do.

That’s what I implied with my post: changes are cultural in nature, so they differ from country to country. Superman, important as it is, never had the same impact in Italy, and most of the golden age comic book production (which is huge, I am considering it as a whole) remains unpublished in Italy. And that is very peculiar for our country which basically absorbed any given comic production worldwide, besides its own amazing school of talents (starting as early as the early 1930s as well). For example, what you say about Superman for the US market in Italy goes for "Topolino", the italian leading Disney magazine, which broke the tradition of journal-sized comics and dared to go pocket-size in 1949. We are going to celebrate issue 3000 and the title peaked to over a million copies for Italy only many times (especially in the 1970s) – at the same time when the average american kid barely knows who Mickey Mouse is but is familiar with Sonic (which graphically owes pretty much to the early animation, to Mickey Mouse and to Astro Boy as well).

I asked because Mickey Mouse often looks funny as drawn by kelly, and the little ducks are very Kelly here so I think it‘s him. Too lazy to check on the I.N.D.U.C.K.S. database, however…

Walt Kelly?

@bababooey: Your points are worthy, and I admit I replied a bit by impulse, as you are right about Spider-Woman. For some reasons, when someone talks of Spider-Woman I think just about the initial run, with Gruenwald and Infantino, so I replied not thinking you were talking about the latter part of the series. Claremont tried to grasp the character after Fleischer issues which IMO were disappointing, but did not succeed to the same degree he did on Ms. Marvel. I guess Gruenwald gave Jessica a unique character which was (and remains) difficult to master and write. Ms. Marvel was pretty much in Claremont’s sensibility, and he developed from Conway’s work in a convincing way. What I don’t like about Shooter’s decision is for a good part what I seem to get constitutes the "essence" of the Copper age, so I think I will stop here…

Sounds like it's time to lower those eBay store prices, eh Bob?

I think Bill’s discourse is solid, but I also think we have a point here, and it’s not about "modern". Although it is undeniable comics are chiefly a product of US culture, I think that the most misleading thing occurs because of the format. Americans have grown accustomed to think mostly in "comic book" format, while – as comics sterted to bloom in Europe as a publishing phenomenon – this did not necessarily happened in this form. To make an example from what I know, which is – my country, in Italy comics bloomed in the newspaper/tabloid sized (or larger) format, as this one was the format which people thought comics would better suited, and presented. There was also a formative element: italian educators liked the idea of having journals aimed to the youth, and to children, to be in the same formats of "serious" publications aimed to adults. This caused the fact that the true revolution, which in the USA happened within the comic book format, here it happened as a generation of readers (born in the early 1920s) was thunderstruck by Flash Gordon on the pages of "L’Avventuroso" (in 1934). This had pretty much the same impact on our own industry which Action Comics #1 have had on the US one: This means that different industries, in different countries, produced markedly different results. This is not to say that we still have journal-sized publications ruling the market, but it means we did and do not have the comic book format as a dominating form. What is even more interesting is that we have had comic-book sized publications as early as 1935, but the format did not take root as much as it did in the USA. This is an issue of "Nel Regno di Topolino" which represented the very first italian Disney story (first appeared serialized in the journal-sized title "Paperino"): It is interesting to note, however, that that title had an alternation of issues, some of which were comic book sized, while others in landscape comic book format, such as the very first issue, from 1935: http://coa.inducks.org/issue.php?c=it%2FNRT+++1 Another aspect, which IMO is not negligible, is the fact that super-heroes as a genre never emerged with excessive prominence in Italy, up to the intuition of Stan Lee & co. in the "silver age" (although Superman and Batman’s 1950 stories were indeed published but – again – some were magazine sized, and some pocket sized. This series was magazine-sized: then it eventually became even pocket-sized: (more information here:http://comics-made-in-usa.blogspot.it/2009/03/superman-storia-editoriale-italiana.html) This comic from 1947 (originally serialized in 1945), for example, is comic book sized, but it has a landscape format:

Wow, what a nice copy. "Vulcanovia", that’s how the place is called in the italian translation.

hello, Thanks for the kind words re Katy. It has been a long four months since this SJS thing erupted on her. She is making good progress after haf a dozen stays in hospital since mid December. yes, re Topix, i lose an item here and there in my warehouse. I need a 40 hour work day to accomplish all I set out to get done. I do not think I know Matteo (though i might) as I first met Fabio along with Lucca Boschi at my first Lucca Italy comics festival in Oct 1999 where I had been invited as a guest under auspices of Alfredo Castelli to present the 1842 Obadiah Oldbuck USA edition to Euro comics scholars who did not know it existed. My talk was translated simultaneously in to Italian, French and Spanish. The three guys listed also brought about the thousand copy reprint which debuted at a 2003 Naples Italy comics festival. It was and remains refreshing to talk about the origins of comic strip books with nary a mention of "how much is it worth" marketing concepts one gets from too many USA people. Hi Bob, don’t worry about those Topix if you can’t find them, I just remind you here and there, just in case… If they surface, good, otherwise it was probably meant to be this way… Fabio has a great attitude, IMO. At the end of last year he cow-wrote a book with my other friend Leonardo Gori and Sergio Lama which chronicles, with great documentation never sourced before, the history of italian comics publishers under fascism. But honestly, there are plenty of people interested merely in market value of collectibles even here…

Bob, I’m glad to see you posting and to hear Kate’s situation appears somewhat more stable! If it happens those two 1943 Topix I tried to buy from you resurface send me a message (you should also still have my first email message). About this post's topic, among those studying the origins' of comics literature there is Fabio Gadducci, do you know him? He and Matteo Stefanelli are (I think) part of an international network of people which take into examination many european periodicals as well.

Robert is amazing as a seller, and that’s undisputable… (thumbs u

This one eludes me. Why should it indicate a transition? What do you mean? I can’t see much connetion between these titles. Spider-Woman had been one of the most interesting and very likely important series of the late bronze age.

I think it is more reasonable to think of certain time spans which can be seen as the transition period between what is labeled as an Age and the following. In this sense, each publisher can and in fact is placed differently within these time spans. Since I am interested primarily in the Marvel age, I can tell you that for me a big, decisive factor as far as Marvel goes, has been Jim Shooter becoming editor-in-chief. For better or worse his decisions were definitely outside the Bronze Age.

That french Disney collection uses italian material, cover included…