Ze-man

Gregorio. Protective corn husk. Simply outstanding, this is a most welcome diversion today Flee.

Kenny, There are 2 things I am trying to accomplish. 1) Is prolonged exposure to heat (this page is the test subject) and is placed just under the books. It is about as close to the top platen as the bottom cover would be. So It is probably getting hit hard enough for the purpose of the test. 2) The rest of the book is being cut in half. Half will be pressed numerous times and the othe rhalf will not. That is the main tests. After 20 pressings I will scan both sections and post the results as well as any observations regarding the pages getting brittle, ink transfer, etc. But are you going to disclose the book was pressed 20 times, and cut in half when you sell it? Look forward to seeing the results. Gotta run

That's very interesting. For other publishers, the range of papers used may be much broader. 6 years ago, I took scans of interior pages of a large number of 1930s Mickey Mouse Magazines, many of them file copies that most likely are among the best existing copies. My intention was to try to measure the decay of the paper over a longer period. I still have the books, but unfortunately my scanner died so I am not sure how to make an accurate comparison. The pictures show just a few samples. If you look very carefully at them, you will notice fairly major differences in texture and granularity. And these variations are just within one title for one publisher. A couple of the samples a much brighter than the rest. These are actually from some of the earliest issues from 1935 which were printed on a very high quality paper. I have never seen any of these books with anything but white pages in superb condition. It really will be interesting to see if you notice different rates of breakdown under the same storage conditions. I assume the cheaper papers will deteriorate at a faster rate given all the junk they used as filler. All I know is the more I work on GA books the more I notice a marked difference between the paper used within the same tile/publisher over years (war years especially.) let alone what paper different publishers used compared to another to save money. Until you try to match page quality and thickness for donor material you never realize just how different the paper can be. Scott was bang on about early DC's though, they really were built like tanks inside and out compared to most same era titles.

Hey Joey, if I read your earlier post correctly the page is sitting on the bottom of the press. Since the top platen is the only part that gets hot in the press there will be the prepped comic between the page and heat souce at all times. Are you just wanting to see what long term, repeated exposure to mild heat visibly does to newsprint? I guess I am just trying to clarify the goals for the experiment.

Yeah, well +infinity +1 Straight up nerd talk without all the emotional baggage.....priceless.

Hey Scott, as I mentioned earlier in this thread I preformed several heat press experiments years ago similar to what TB mentioned. What I walked away with was that unless you cooked a book incorrectly for way too long in a dry mount heat press there was no discernible damage. My results were obviously was not scientific, or by any means conclusive but as you well know right now I simply have so much on my plate it would take too much time and effort to even consider such an undertaking. But that isn't stopping somebody else from doing it! Ultimately I imagine results would show too much heat for too long will be detrimental incrementally. Applying that info to each and every book pressed or not is the tough nut to crack because there are simply too many unkowns.

I've been specifically looking for evidence of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence being pressed and have been unable to find any. Do you recall where you heard it has been pressed? I haven't read this whole thread but both the Constitution and Declaration of Independence were written on parchment, not paper. I don't think you can compare pressing of paper to pressing of parchment or vellum. Again, I think Scott was referring more to a pressed artifact reverting then the properties or compisition of the artifact before after pressing. I think.

Because MCP does not have the alkaline reserve a full back does its shelf life is obviously shorter. Also I think it depends on what book it is, a White paged BA book, or a cream/tan GA book. I think that would make a huge difference in how often the paper should be swapped out. Perhaps the 7 year number was a compromise and swapping out the paper every 7 years is overkill on many books, but pushing the limit on others. Or perhaps they just drew numbers from a hat and went with it. I do think because the MCP sitting right next to the interior is as effective as a fullback, just not for as long. And I do not know either in regards to long term archival safety but I honestly don't think a slabbed book is any worse off then a comic sitting in a stack of books without bags/boards that survived for decades with white pages because their exposure to the environment was so limited. I guess time will tell.

A basic chemistry lecture would do you wonders and the lab so much more............ yeah, you the man! Although I do not agree with ImageMask's delivery, he is right. This assumption is 100% inaccurate. All the information being delivered here sounds great to the ears. But the only thing that is relevant is information and testing on newsprint, (uncoated groundwood) which is the insides of the comic book and if you want to include the cover, coated groundwood. Tests on anything else and any other paper grades mean little or nothing to this discussion. Imagemask grabbed part of Scotts quote out of context to question I assume Scotts technical background. His post had had nothing to do with the composition of paper, PH levels, whatever. Scott was answering a question about flaws reverting after they had been pressed. ' And I think you are wrong Stagedoor, in the sense of I think the covers should be included in this discussion because they are the item that is bearing the brunt of the heat, if heat was even used. The interiors will warm up but they are not the pages being pressed. You cannot really heat press interior flaws with a flat press. I think all of this wondering, testing and concern comes down to if a heat pressed book will age faster then one that was not pressed. And that all depends on the condition of the paper to start with and how hot and long it was pressed. Which is never a constant. imho, a mildly heat pressed book is not what I would worry about compared to somebody that is cranking up the heat and mashing the crud out of their comic because they do not know what they are doing. Year ago I heat pressed several sets of books in similar condition(same eras, BA/SA, same titles, same collection to the best of my knowledge) For all intentional purposes they all looked and felt similar. Pressed them at various heat temps/increments of time. Then baked the pages from both unpressed and pressed books and preformed typical fold tests on each set. I noticed no difference in any of the pressed vs unpressed till I got the book I left in the press at way too hot a temp, for way to long. Basically the one I baked before baking it. What did I take from this? That if done properly heat pressing did not dramatically alter the paper unless it was pressed at dangerously high heat levels. I did these experiments because I was honestly curious about what effect it had on the paper, and is in part why I altered my stance on pressing years ago. I never posted my experiments or results because it would have just been written off as self serving.

Of the 2 you listed the .25, but I think there are better options. I will go dig through my receipts, I forget where I got the sheets from it has been so long.

By hard creases, you mean ones that break fibers? Those are pressable? I figured fiber-breaking creases were permanent damage. Isn't that what the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 (previously an 8.5, now an 8.0) supposedly has on the back that nobody could press? Again in my experience a hard crease is not the same as a broken crease. Depending on the quality of the paper, inks and clay a book can have what appears to be a bent, hard crease but in reality it is not broken. A broken crease to me is more like a corner that has been folded back and forth too many times. Yeah pressing might make it sit flat again, but it cannot reset the paper fibers because they have been flexed beyond repair. Besides in most cases these types of creases break color. This to me lies at the heart of what makes up good pressing candidates because I never liked the idea of pressing paper that had weak hinged spots. I am sure there are pressed books out there that if you were to work an area with your hands bending it back and forth it might loosen up again, but then again who sits around doing that to their comics?

What kind of defect is this useful on? Every time I've tried any kind of pressing without heat or humidity, it doesn't do jack. Bent overhanging edges and certain hard creases in the white area of the front or back cover - the kinds of defects where a dry mount press oftentimes won't do jack. Exactly I think it might be helpful to add that you can screw down a dry mount press till the staples pop and you will still not get at a hard type crease. More pressure does not mean better results. These types of things are typicaly dealt with locally as Scott mentioned, which means using your hands and hand tools. And I do not mean a tacking iron, which can heat an area up and apply even pressure to a small area but doesn't get at a specific creased area like you can with your hands. This is why many times I have said a book may be "pressed" and never even been in a press. Also, I think(just guessing here) the other pressing thread was pulled same as other "how to spot trimming" threads were pulled. For whatever the reason CGC does not want "how to" type threads, even if they done in an educational manner meant only to discuss a subject. Wonder how long this one will last.

I agree with Scott's approach, if it is cost effective. But am I not mistaken, the main purpose of micro paper in regards to CGC's use of it was to prevent oil transfer and cover tanning? Not interior paper degradation? Hence the size of the sheet which only covers the interior inks, not the entire page.

I have to admit this one puzzles me. All our comics are on fire(to use a popular term) all we can do is slow the process. So if not stored in a mylar(or any kind of bag that encloses the comic) how else would you store your books? Because to me the paper will eat away at itself regardless, and exposure to the open elements would only accelerate this process compared to what is happening inside a mylar. Not to mention the physical damage that might happen. So you don't want to encapsulate, or mylar your books. What do you suggest as an alternate method? And I am not trying to be snarky, but honestly am curious. That said I think the books we have tucked away in long boxes will outlast all of us, and our kids be they raw, slabbed or bagged as long as the storage environment is stable. While the evidence you posted points to accelerated breakdowns in an enclosed environment, what are the opposite numbers from a page, or comic exposed to the environment without protection. And to close my ramblings, I have long wondered what will happen 20 years from now when a slabbed white paged book is no longer white because of storage related conditions.

I have long wondered, and this proves it. You are an android aren't you?

I think you also need to factor in how/who pressed it. I could possibly see a severe spine roll reverting somewhat someday, but not completely. HG books with minor flaws coming back?...doubtful or at least I have not seen any. Of course there will be those instances of a book that displayed flaws that should not have been pressed out reverting because of the nature of the crease( whole book sub creases come to mind) But it is also likely it was not pressed out completely to start with.

Are you referring to just humidity + pressure? If not, what types do you mean? There are "heatless" pressing techniques that use moisture and there are heatless pressing techniques that do not use moisture. Mechanical, localized pressing is one example. And you have, yourself, conducted these techniques in the same manner as a LBC conservator would? Do you have a point, or are you just trying to pick a fight? You obviously have nothing of substance to add to the discussion, so why don't you just head on back to the kiddie pool. Did you avoid the question for a reason? Do you have an answer or are you just avoiding the fight? If you wanna play expert on what you have read researched on web plaese do so. But if you think that qualifies you as an expert in print and press technology when you haven't heard the presses roll in that warehouse in the less desirable side of town...step off. Stick to the law books sonny.............. I will go on the record and say Scott has read more, done more research and talked with more conservators then I have regarding all things paper.( and I have read and talked to a lot) He knows his stuff. The mere fact that Scott is offering what he is should be applauded, not scoffed at. You can disagree with him but I wouldn't question his credentials.

C'mon! You hang with me enough to do better than that. I wanted to say batchit but didnt want a strike for masking. Oops.. I just did.

Good lord, I just got caught up yesterday on Connor, only to see 200 new posts today. TFL, be it fly, drive, bus,or walk. 4 star Hotel, a schmotel or a cardboard box..who cares. Why you are spending so much time on that one contention is beyond me. You need to look in the mirror and realize nobody is buying what you are selling and that you need to man up with an apology, or leave. The mere fact that Rick has gone out of way and has posted in this thread is enough for me because he is not one to get involved for no reason. This place has gone batpoop crazy lately, wtf is wrong with people?

I had already forgotten that he took on the Secret Santa duties. As for now, hopefully he'll do what he needs to do. This entire fiasco is news to me. While I haven't read everything, I have read enough. Shame on you Connor, your actions are just shameful no matter how you slice it. Part of being a man is how you handle bad situations, and it's obvious you have a long, long way to go.

Hey again, is anybody there? Was working on a book this weekend that serves as a good example that not all restored books will look restored. Or rather a tattered beat up comic that looks like dog meat can still come back with a purple label from CGC if you don't know what to look for. In this case somebody cut small strips of an archival type tape and sealed dozens of tears on the inside cover. At a glance you might not see them unless you know what to look for. So for those that already know this well never mind, and for those that don't here ya go. Before and after shots of the taped areas. One in normal viewing light, and the other taken in a raking light that allows you to easily see the tape. So hold those books at an angle under light to better spot tear seals, and or CT. And a shot of a huge tear sealed up with multiple pieces of tape.

I was working on a book today that had tape applied to the interior spine. To apply this tape somebody obviously had to remove and replace the staples, I immediately thought of Scott's post above because the staples looked so similar. One can never see too many examples so I took some shots before I took them out. Most of the damage to the staples was done when they were reinserted and they tried to mash them to make them lay flat. You can see typical scrapes and indentation marks made by whatever tool they used, most likely pliers of some sort because one of the prongs is even bent which led it to poke a hole in the paper next to it. Similar to Scott's example, this one is extreme and amateurish but can serve as another example of what to look for when trying to determine if the staples were removed/replaced. Factory set staples might have the tines set at different angles, but they almost always are lined up correctly at the start of the bend. While the paper around the staple might show wear from years of use..it will only be torn like in these photos when somebody unbends a staple too far when removing them. And typically a re inserted staple will show a slight curve to the tine if improper pressure is applied when trying to make them lay flat after re inserting them.

+1

Because he's a lawyer, and that's the only way anyone will listen to them. Thats it!! And I knew Scott was kidding, perhaps we should dial back the sarcasm and stick to the resto tech talk. Sounds like a good idea for a radio show, Resto Talk with Click and Clack.