Jaydogrules

I think we will just have to agree to disagree that sales across disparate grades, years ago and years apart are valid or relevant to a discussion about a "hierarchy in 2017". And if you want to know how fast the market can, in fact, move on a mega key, you need look no further than AF 15, or SC 4, or Hulk 1 in the SA. Or heck, even pre Robins in the GA. Two years can be an eternity. -J.

I couldn't answer that. I just know that maybe six of those contributors are responsible for 90% of the sales and price discussions that occur on these boards though. -J.

Yes, you provided stale sales from incomparable grades, that were years apart. Gothamkid provided a sale of a prestigious pedigree to a non pedigree, nine months apart, and the bats sale may not have actually gone through, as Vincent never uploaded it to GPA (though he did upload the Cap sale). I provided the closest and most comparable recent sales, they all happen to be low grade, but it is what it is. I only cited the comiclink sale as further evidence of how Cap looks to be surging past Bats, at least as far as these recent and similar grade sales are concerned. Hope that clears it up. -J.

Anyone with a millennial in the house knows what a "rando" is. -J.

Look, you're free to rely on any information you want in your own private space. But if you want to have a public debate, be ready with publicly available and viewable facts, or save your breath. Gator has himself only admittedly offered some vague information because he finds that kind of info proprietary and valuable. So I don't know exactly what part of what he has said that you are placing so much weight on. As for "only" using publicly available sales to compare the two books, yeah, and? Those are the sales that we have in the public view. I know that publicly available info isn't consistent with the narrative you want to believe but it is what it is, sorry. Again, all this only further highlights the problem of trying strictly private transactions in these types of conversations. It's vague and not available to public scrutiny. -J.

So what alternative are you suggesting? No data at all? Or maybe GPA just should accept data from the one or two dealers that you personally know, trust, and like. Come on man. GPA accepts data from at least three dozen different and vetted venues. That vast amount of data smoothes out a lot of the occasional issues that you mention. GPA does not accept data from Comiclink because Josh only wanted to cherry pick favourable data to report and GPA would not accept that kind of data. And the other great thing about GPA is- if you have direct info or knowledge that a sale is questionable, not properly sourced, and or fraud, they welcome emails from their members alerting them to such. They will then research the sale, verify and re-verify and respond accordingly. They literally go multiple extra miles to keep their data as un-corrupted as possible. This conversation has officially gone off the rails by the way. -J.

And see mine below that. By the way, you may want to get your facts straight. You can contact GPA at anytime and they will tell you the source of any sale from anytime. And....yes private dealers also report to GPA. The list of all of them is on GPA's home page. There is a vetting those dealers must go through in order to be able to report. Those private dealers have made their sales available for public scrutiny, comparisons, and consumption. If you don't comprehend the difference, I don't know what to tell you. -J.

Fair point. I thought I even exaggerated the point to such an extreme as to be satirical but I guess satire doesn't always translate well on the interwebs with everyone. -J.

Gator, most of our back and forths in the past have been rooted in public vs private sales and how the two don't always seem to line up. I'm just going to have to assume that you know that I wasn't referring to you as a "rando dealer" running around reporting private sales with no basis. And if you don't know that, I'll say it again. I wasn't, in spite of what a couple of determined instigators might be saying. Now ask me about a few dealers in the copper and modern forums and I might have a different answer. -J.

Hi Troll. I've bought from Gator and shopped multiple high dollar books with him in the past. That doesn't mean I automatically take everything he (or anyone else says) as gospel. I have a brain and can research and cross check and think for myself too. I'm starting to wonder if the same could be said about you. Troll on..... -J.

Such as? -J.

Sorry, but an amalgam of public sales from dozens of different venues is always going to be more reliable than the accounts of a private dealer, who for whatever reasons he has, decides to keep his sales private, regardless of who the dealer is. And if the public data from dozens of sources is inconsistent with what is being reported from a strictly private setting, that in itself is a red flag and why non-public sales are not helpful in discussions such as this. -J.

Yeah that's weird. A 1.8 copy with "brittle pages" on the label sold for $6766 in 5/16 which was consistent with the 1.8 that sold for $6750 with "ow" on the label in 6/17. Maybe the fact that this book was just seen raw a few weeks ago has something to do with it? -J.

And what's so awesome about that is you can usually see bidding patterns on eBay, thus allowing an individual to vet results for himself, and auction houses like CC, mycomicshop, etc have safeguards in place to at least curtail such shenanigans. But yeah some rando "dealer" running around the CGC boards boasting about all his record breaking private sales is so much more reliable (I am not referencing anyone in particular, by the way, just using that as an example of the problem with trying to use strictly private sales in conversations like this). I don't know what "the hobby" agrees or disagrees with, I just like common sense. -J.

I agree. Beyond conversations like this, private dealer info is not invalid, and GPA is just a small slice of the sales market pie. -J.

Yes it is. And I used ALL of the most recent publicly available data points. What are you using exactly? Oh right, nothing as always. Troll on..... -J.

I hear you. But while private sales between individuals are certainly valid as far as those two individuals are concerned, for these types of conversations and analyses, sales done and recorded publicly, information that is accessible and viewable to everybody, keeps the playing field level and the conversation honest. -J.

It takes a "troll" to drop into the middle of a civilized debate with nothing to offer but personal attacks. Nuff said. -J.

The fact that everybody can see and the playing field is level with the former. -J.

I will grant you that, at current, there are a couple of sky high Bats 1 sales that a Cap 1 would not likely reach if it came up in those grades publicly. The 3.5 for 143k and the 5.5 for 239k. We will just have to wait and see for a Cap 1 to come up for sale publicly to see how it would compare in those additional grades. But as of now, in the lower grades that have come up, edge to Cap 1. Edge to Bats 1 in mid grade? Time will tell....

Your sale has been on GPA for quite some now. Meanwhile that Bats 1 is not. -J.

Who knows ? Bats 1 in those grades have been coming up publicly fairly regularly. Cap 1? Not so much. But to say Bats 1 sells for more in every grade except the ones it doesn't is kind of silly. -J.

Are you sure that Bats 1 sale actually went through? It isn't being reported to GPA, while the Cap 1 sale is. -J.

Comparing a pedigree to a non pedigree 9 months after the fact is simply specious. Just like comparing sales that are years and multiple grades apart. But I get it, resales data for Cap 1 is slim compared to the far more commonly available Bats 1. There was an 8.0 sale a year and a half ago and that's it, and the book surged significantly since then. Would that book go for that now ? Yeah sure. But here's what there is from now. Coverless: Bats 1, 4/17- $7500 Cap 1, 11/16- $10,755 (raw, but here's the link to it: https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/captain-america-comics-1-timely-1941-condition-coverless/a/7141-91073.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515 0.5: Bats 1, Signature series, (not restored) 3/16- $10,500 Cap 1, Restored, trimmed 2/17- $19,700 1.0/1.5: Bats 1, 1.5,12/15 (this is the oldest sale I'm using because it's all there is and the closest to the Cap 1)- $40k Cap 1, 1.0 (one grade lower), 7/17- $36k 2.5: Bats 1 1/17- $80k Cap 1 7/17- Offer of $78k on comiclink, not accepted by seller. So as you can see, the most recent and similar like for like sales show Cap 1 with the edge now. -J.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. But you're still looking at stale comps that aren't even comparable. The most recent and similar like for like sales shows Cap 1 edged ahead of Bats 1 NOW. What happened two, three, eight years ago is not relevant to a conversation about a "hierarchy" in "2017". -J.