VintageComics

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace. Actually, the generally collecting populace had no idea what pressing was, and for the most part, they still don't know what it is. Most who do know don't care. Most books I knew about back in the day that had been "cleaned and pressed" were not dry cleaned, but actually chemically washed and pressed back to dryness. And that is alot of the stigma that was initially associated with pressing. This goes back to CaptainOfIndustry's saying that hobbies are much more enjoyable when the collector is uninformed. How about "hobbies are much more enjoyable when money is not a factor."

Which Overstreet changes ever went out with a memo, trumpets and a march? But it wasn't Overstreet who changed it? And CGC stated that they were broadly following Overstreet guidelines, sooooooo.... I'm too tired to keep doing this.

Which Overstreet changes ever went out with a memo, trumpets and a march? I genuinely think it was just a separation of cleaning and pressing that mitigated the change a) because pressing was not intrusive or on the same level as the other procedures b) because it's been going on since paper was invented to some degree or another I really like October's point about dry cleaning. It's about as effective and intrusive as pressing but I doubt anyone has had an argument about it. And like in all things that people argue about, if it wasn't about the $ involved it would have been left alone never to be mentioned again. In the case of dry cleaning it has been left alone because it does not really increase the grade and therefore the $$ amount much if at all.

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace. Money has a lot to do with it, on both sides of the issue. Where is/was the outrage over dry cleaning? That's a restorative procedure that alters a book's appearace and perceived level of preservation even more than pressing in many cases. It doesn't seem to bump the grade as much though, or alter the value of a book to the same degree, so it draws not 1% of the scrutiny that pressing does. Very good point I had not thought about...and it's been going on since Hector was a pup.

Fair enough how you feel about it. I just think most of the outrage came from the money involved.

That might be the case now - at least in our little CPR flipping community - but I can guarantee that that was not the case back in 2000 with the general collecting populace. No it may not have been. But that's because the thought didn't even cross some people's minds. Some people just don't think that way. Doesn't mean nobody does. Not everyone is inventive. Every time I look at something I try to figure out how it's made or how it can be improved. It's the way my mind works. Others might just see a lamp, or a door knob or a wheel. Pressing is the same. Someone just took what kids have been doing and made it work better. Again, I honestly believe that the reason people who dislike pressing are outraged is because of the money. Not even the grade increases. If the grade increases didn't = more money they probably wouldn't care half as much. If you remove the money from the discussion and just look at it on a scale of 1 - 100 with 100 being a full on extensive restoration job where much of the book was worked on (pieces added, colour touch, cleaning, staples replaced, glue, etc) where does pressing fall on the scale? 10 or less? 5 or less? I mean what was done to the book? The book was pressed. It was placed under something heavy and pressed. Nothing added, nothing taken away. Same weight, same molecular makeup, same size. Everything the same. EDIT: To add this, a book is even pressed when it's published. So if a professionally pressed book gets a low score like a 5 or a 10 out of 100, what does an Encyclopedia pressed book get? To me pressing is a 2 or a 3 out of 100. It's negligible. Do you see what I'm getting at? The procedure is so benign, so non-intrusive and so painfully obvious because we all pressed our books as kids that this is the reason people don't even consider it resto. People are upset about the dollars not the pressing itself.

I have and I agree. Even so, I think most of us can agree on this: many people don't consider it restoration for the reason that it is a benign procedure that simply mimics what can very possibly (and often likely) be a natural occurrence. The simple addition of humidity in a humid climate will soften paper fibres and remove defects from a book just sitting on a table. The simple addition of gravity to apply pressure on a book (something we have all been doing since childhood) will straighten out defects on a book. It's very different than something additive and intrusive, that much cannot be disputed. I genuinely believe that the outrage is not because pressing is considered evil, it's because money is being made from pressing. And quite honestly, since Overstreet has made some mistakes (IMO - like when allowed staples to be replaced on Vintage books up to VF) he himself is not the be-all and end-all. Let's face it, OSPG grading standards evolved into what they were in 1970 from a bunch of geeky collectors, evolved from 1970 until today and are still evolving currently. No "BOOM" whatsoever. I knew a few years in that CGC had not considered pressing restoration. CGC themselves told me. It wasn't a secret by any means. Yes you like to use power words on a regular basis to try to emphasize (and sensationalize) your posts.

This type of qualitative statement is frequently trotted out to legitimize the current state of slabbed grading, but the problem is a quantitative one: there's so much pressed high grade now, and the volume continues to increase exponentially, that it's increasingly difficult to find uncommon high grade books that haven't been pressed. Bringing CI into the CCG fold will only heighten the quantitative problem. Many discussions going on at once. Nobody is disputing that the amount of pressed books will increase over time. We weren't discussing whether there were pressed books before CGC. We were discussing whether CGC was trying to hide pressing and keep it exclusive to only a select few. They weren't.

Fair enough. It's difficult to prove (a) because nobody really knows anything except for what people (like Borock) say. It's easier to prove (b) because i) it's documented that people were pressing well before the inception of CGC and ii) it's documented that if anyone asked CGC about pressing would have gotten a straight answer about it

Thanks, Royh I look good in a top hat. What about the fishnets? I've only been able to wear them under leather pants.

Thanks, Royh I look good in a top hat.

Zatannah could help them with the "intent" part. I think Litch and the boys can handle the grading without her help.

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know. It seems simple and logical enough. Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too. Maybe she can read it to me backwards so it appears germane to anything. It's absolutely germane to the discussion of what responsibilities the graders have. Whether they should be giving their impartial opinion to the book as it sits in front of them or whether they should look for intent.

Spam.

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know. It seems simple and logical enough. Maybe Zatannah can help with this one too.

Fact. It might be a fact as an abstract model but Borock already came on here and admitted that pressing and resubmission was a) not built into the original CGC model - Initially no but did you forget PCS? Just because it wasn't initially part of the plan doesn't mean it can't be a few years later. How can resubmission not be part of the initial model, that's just mind boggling. b) was not shared with only a select group of people. [i]Sorry I don't understand. Did you mean to say it wasn't shared with the masses only a select group of clientele because that was the impression I got back then? [/i] So your model doesn't really apply. So it is therefore just sensationalism and sound bite. Davenport is trying to uncover a hidden conspiracy. I'm trying to show there wasn't one. a) I did not forget about PCS. We are talking about initially, not what can happen after. b) I mean pressing wasn't hidden. There was no hidden agenda by CGC to hide pressing from the general public and anybody that asked got a straight answer.

Kick save, and a beauty! totally not a dig at all. There were flowers icons and everything. It was not a dig. It was a poke back at Seanfingh personally since he cracked the Zatannah mind-wipe joke. All I was showing was that all levels of service, whether it's a Lawyer or Comic Grader we have our human limitations and for that reason rules are put into place to best allow each to do their job fairly. Asking a grader to wipe their minds is akin to asking a lawyer to read minds. Both are impossible. In that case we work with that as best we can. Why do you continue to poke at me personally and not even answer a direct question when it's related to this thread?

Kick save, and a beauty! It's fun watching it on a big screen sometimes.

And that was not a poke at lawyers at all. It just shows that in any business rules are drawn up to take our own humanity into account and we work around or with those rules.

Do they have Zatanna handle the mindwipe duties? I think as soon as Lawyers learn how to read minds so that they can finally do their jobs honestly, properly, efficiently and professionally we can then start worrying about whether a grader can do theirs.

There is no way to remove the human aspect of grading. You know it. I know it. Rules are set in place in any place of business to control what can be controlled as much as possible. You can't remove humanity from the equation.

Exactly what I just said in my second last post. For the system to remain impartial you need to have certain borders drawn up. Much like the Chinese Wall mentioned earlier which is needed to keep higher ups from interfering with operations, you need a set of guidelines to keep a submitter from interfering with operations as well. That includes everything that was done to the book up until the time that the book passes into CGC's hands. The operation being as impartial of an opinion towards the grade of a submitted book as a grader can give. The reality is that if you allow certain things to be made privy to graders for certain books then that affects what they know about the books and you are no longer allowing them to grade with the same playing field for all submissions.

Fact. It might be a fact as an abstract model but Borock already came on here and admitted that pressing and resubmission was a) not built into the original CGC model b) was not shared with only a select group of people So your model doesn't really apply. So it is therefore just sensationalism and sound bite.

There are many books that are well known. In a small hobby you're going to get that, especially as you move towards the top of the pile as far as quality goes. As Dale says though, even if they remember particular books (and I would stress that everyone remembers a little bit of everything about their comics) they don't remember the entire book, all the defects, previous grades, etc. It might be easy enough for Mark to know that the book was submitted at least 5 previous times just by looking at their internal census while he was on the phone with you and noticing 6 purple 9.8 subs of the book. You're right but they if I was running a grading business I'd also want to be consistent to all books and since they can't tell what exactly was done to all books (ie the ones that did not come through Matt or PCS for grading) then I would probably want to write a set of rules that treats all books impartially...meaning only what the grader can tell about the book sitting in front of them.

Sound bite.