drotto

Ok, just a question, if it has been covered before, sorry I missed it, after there was an explosion of like 200 posts in 2 hours. My head hurts. How was the 350 list generated? Is this standard grading submissions from the suspected scammer, or just reholder submissions? Or a combination of the two? All his submissions? The sequential certificate numbers would indicate initial grading submissions, while the one off numbers could be either, since reholders keep the original number. If it is all submissions from a high volume submitter, even the 350 number seems low. I am just a collector and have submitted 50 or so books over the years.

Agreed, this is all the books attached to one account, or maybe one name, if they could determine the individual was using multiple accounts. It does not include people that may be associated with this individual, or just others running the same scam, and CGC has no reason to investigate at this point. Also CGC wants all the tainted books gone, even if proven legitimate. Like you said they arw toxic. They do need to look at all these books, I suspect many of them are actually legitimate, or to some a disappointing amount may be. The fraud, I suspect are concentrated on those where he submitted an extreme amount of books. I would not be surprised if all the SA, and other lower number books are fine.

I suspect these are all the books linked to one account or individual. We do not know if they are investigating multiple accounts, or if multiple individuals are doing the same scam. I would like to know if they are trying to broaden this to other accounts. If so, the affected number of books could grow. That is very important at this point. It seems like CGC is really leaning into the one bad egg senerio, and is unconvinced or unwilling to expand it.

Once CGC starts seeing these books, it would also be nice to know exactly what they are finding. Let's see some videos of them cracking a hulk 181 and paging to the missing MVS. They need to be transparent about what they are actually finding, and if they are indeed pursuing this criminally they must be documenting every suspect book they review in extreme detail, and better yet in view of legal authorities.

Yes, most likely has a handful of 9.8 that are constantly resubbed. That would also offset it if that 9.8 does occasionally come back as a 9.6, so they still have other 9.8's ready to go. Since these are high value books and he needs turn around to keep this going, he is likely using a higher tier and paying for fast track. The increase in cost is insignificant compared to the profit from increased turnover.

I wonder what was going on with those few SA books? I think someone said some of those FF's are known books with missing pinups, and other pattern there?

As far as restoration goes.... 1. Is it just more obvious to the knowledgeable collectors, so they are afraid it would get spotted faster? 2. Is it lower yield, meaning the numbers to hid this are not there, and resto is far more a GA and SA issue. 3. Is the cost benefit to risk factor not there? Most resto marked books tend to be lower grade and amateur. The high grade ones are already very expensive, and usually have an obvious look to them.

Initially, I liked the sticker idea, more I think about it, not so much. We have to remember how much some of these slabs are handled. Sold multiple times, shipped, in comic boxes, taken to shows, not to mention the number of hands just touching slabs. They would just never hold up and would either peel, or get very warn. Back to marking the inner well, and working on making the outer case more tamper evident.

It's not superhero fatigue entirely, it marginal to bad movie fatigue. It is just an endless stream of sameness. The film are very predicatable, and usually the character developement is weak. If you start putting out films of similar quality to phases 1 to 3 of the MCU some fans would come back. Same as if you were making films like the Nolan Batman films. I am not saying there is not good stuff out there, but the massive amounts of meh, are turning people away from the better stuff.

Granted, it may not be him. People have been taking other's photos to create fraudulent listings for years. I posted an account as a scam about 3 months ago that was listing old Heritage photos as books for sale. This may just be a wild coincidence.

I reported it also. I may be mistaken, but this appears to be a photo of the scam book that started all of this.

True. The biggest damage to the comic collecting world comes from two groups. Investors, who are just buying books as a commodity, and a way to diversify their portfolio. Many people may say good riddance to this group, but it could have a large negative affect on perceived value if they get out. The second and definitely more important group is new collectors, and like it or not graded comics provide a lower skill avenue to start buying and trading. Will these people be permanently scared off? The old farts like us on this forum, who mostly do this for live of the medium, will weather this storm. It will eventually pass.

Honestly no idea. The only proof we have of swapped books, that I have seen here, is from the Gen 3 cases. We also know that the label was switchable in earlier generations of case, and that scam left basically no apparent case damage. I suspect his methods have evolved as the cases have changed, and presented him with new obstacles. So maybe the new case does show tampering more easily so he was forced into the reholder method? Maybe he just discovered that getting label notations for things like MJI lead to big profits, and flawlessly faking the label was difficult? Yes, the pictures are a new thing in the registry, but the registry and showing up as valid there has been a thing since basically day one of CGC.

It gives the scammer the legitimacy of the CGC census, since CGC has been rescanning covers after reholdering. So if you look it up, it is this book pictured. It covers any damage that may have occurred to the slab during the switch. Which is essential, because many collectors are very particular about cases, and may question if the book is legitimate if they notice even a hint of damage. That is the prevailing theory at this point.

So your numbers are suspected/confirmed listing, or do you have a possible number of books involved?

I have already suggested this a few times, so yes 100%. I think all inner wells should have on them the book, the grade, if it is universal/qualified/restored/conserved and the certificate number. I was suggesting a hologram or watermark in the back plastic of the inner well, but some more subtle and "hidden" things would be great. I am also on board with having some undisclosed marks that only CGC would know or have means to see. Similar to how the government has not disclosed all the anti fraud features on money. It is also a way CGC can regain trust and put them ahead of the competition. Really come out with the next level slab. I can already see collectors running around cons with UV pen lights.

Really like the idea of a UV barcode or watermark on the inner well. While not impossible to fake, it would take a level of equipment very few "normal" people would have access too. I think there is a growing consensus of the boards at least that we want to see identification and fraud protection on the inner well. The key to protect from fraud is the inner well, period. I really think it is impossible to make the out case 100% tamper resistant, so multiple anti tamper measures and redundancies become the key.

Again speculating, but i think that will be the next thing we see. I suspect those reholder protocols changing are what the CGC was referring to in their statement when they were saying changes had already been made. I think further down the line we will be seeing a new case and/or added security measures, but that is something that will take more time and money. People will need To be patient with that.

Yes, speculation a bit on my part, but it seems very reasonable based on what is known at this point. I am not sure what CGC is going to do at this point. Any guesses at that would also be speculation.

Yes, I think the scammer was trying to get the holder to look not damaged, or minimally damaged. That way CGC was looking mainly at the case, and determining that the damage to the outer case was insufficient to have damaged the comic, and therefor the comic did not need further evaluation. Off to reholder it goes. At this point it seems the main reason for the comic to be sent back to CGC was 1. to get changes made to the label 2. make sure the book and any pictures associated with it in the registry would look legitimate. An added benefit was if any damage was done to the case during the swap the book would get a nice shiny new case. I think it is possible to get the cases looking close to perfect, with practice. I am not sure it is possible to get it 100% non detectable for the very observant. We all know how detail oriented and demanding comic collectors can be. Somebody (likely many somebodies) would quickly be raising red flags if a sellers cases consistently looked off. As proven by what really ended up happening, the collectors were the more observant ones. I think the deception would have been discovered faster, if these books had not been passing through CGC before going back out into the wild. YES, CGC should have seen this, if they were truly evaluating the reholders. That is not in question.

If you are a Rangers fan, you are my new best friend here. I think with practice, it would go from fooling some, to fooling most. Thinking the book was a reprint, he said earlier he only had a few cheap slabs to practice on. @comicwiz Just wow, impressive work.

He'll, with a chip you can get very high tech and imbed the graders notes, pictures etc in it also.

Just had another thought. CGC has never viewed the inner well as really being important. When the new case first came out in the creep engine varient, they tried very hard to eliminated the inner well entirely. It was seen as a hindrance. Everything was about the hard case. The only reason it was bought back is it was needed to properly center and hold books inside the case without damaging them. So we have evidence they have never viewed the inner well as essential to maintaining certification. That is thr mindset that needs to change at CGC. It is also now clear, the new case was only designed from the standpoint of improving presentation, and nothing to do with enhancing security.

Changing the inner well like this would possibly save them from needing to redesign the entire case.

We have to rethink the cases for what function the different components perform. Up till now, it has been assumed the hard outer case provides protection, and guarantees the book is what the label says it is. This is why CGC decided the label does not need to be attached to the inner well, and that inner well other than being sealed provides no identification. The inner well was just an added level of protection, the important thing was the outer case. We need to reverse this. The inner well needs to be viewed at what proves the comic is authentic. That is where the information can be affixed to the book. Since it is sealed in that well, it is very difficult to remove a book without causing damage to that protective plastic. Apparently far harder then opening the outer case. That is why the label either needs to be permanently re-attached to the inner well and/or all the important information about the book must be permanently marked on the inner well. You could also implement some sort of "water mark" or hologram type image to the back potion of the inner well (do not want anything to obstruct the cover), which would be difficult to replicate. If that inner well is at all disturbed, the comic is now back to raw status. The outer case can only be viewed as protecting the comic from damage, and has nothing to do with protecting authenticity.