drotto

Be careful calling some of these books that are clearly the same, as all part of this swapping business. Some of those may be CPR, and CGC considers those legitimate. Just most people forget the have CGC remove old unused certs from the census.

CGC tracks it, the public does nit have access.

Has likely been told to leave this thread alone until CGC has its official response, however long that takes. As long as there are no violations in the personal conduct guidelines of the forum in general.

Batman 181 seems like a prime candidate for this scam, with the missing pinup leading to qualified grades. Feel less comforted now?

Plus, they present themselves as experts. So simple things like missing pages, missing MVS, restoration should not get past them. In fact that is part of how they advertise the value of their service. They can garentee a book meets certain criteria. It is also why they say grading is somewhat subjective, to give themselves some wiggle room. Meaning one grade up or down roughly, not 3 or 4 off. It is also why they allow pressing and dry cleaning, if they can not reliably pick it up they legally do not want to garentee it is not there.

Until someone with deep pockets and 100k's worth of books takes them to court. You advertise as a grading expert that certifies books and condition, the law will treat you as an expert. I could also see a lawer bring a class action suit on the same basis. This is the US, people love to sue, and we have lots of layers looking for work. I can see tables of grading experts called as witnesses to argue over books in court. Could be very entertaining.

It needs to be done with the owner present with high level CGC people witnessing it.

Which I always read as if the inner well is completely intact and shows now signs of damage or tampering, they do not touch it. This is the exact loophole being exploited. So as long as the person in question maintains the inner well and the damage to the outer well does not look like tampering, CGC slaps a new label on it and into the new case it goes. This means the opening technique does not have to be perfect, it just can't look intentional. Heck, it may be as simple as CGC never thought somebody would be so brazen to do this, so they just never questioned it. Then it doe snot even matter how bad the outer case looks, as long as the inner well is OK. Then the submitter just puts into the request, please put the special label on it, and I think you missed an insert also, you can see it on the side.

We have facial recognition, book "recognition" should in theory be no issue. The only problem is how far back and how good are the scans that CGC has archived. Every book coming back to them could in theory be checked by automatically. It would also be an interesting new twist for buyers to be able to confirm their own books. Hell CGC likes to make money on new revenue stream, make a photo book verification app. Granted this would not have stopped some of this scam, since he has manage to get the "fake" books rescanned as the authentic one.

I speculate it is not someone within CGC, but is a person very well known to them, and they have a long standing relationship. So there is a level of trust, and things are expediated for them. They know how CGC works, and the know where the weak spots are. I think it is likely this individual has 100's if not 1000's of submissions over the years.

Yes, it now looks like the same person is pulling multiple types of scams. He has been found out, but not identified. I am sure there are more people out there. Unfortunately, even though CGC is essentially getting scammed also, they are presenting themselves as the authority here, so it becomes their responsibility to tighten up book security. It is also reasonable to say they should not be missing some of the things there are.

I also think there is a pattern where he is sticking to very common keys, with vary high census numbers, from the Bronze and Copper Ages. Not only does this approach make it harder to track down what books were swapped, it makes easier to repeat. Also it raises less suspicion. H181 is so common I am sure CGC regularly receives multiple requests for re-holders so a small bump in requests would not raise any flags. If they started seeing many requests on books with a small census, questions may be asked why the sudden surge. So I doubt this is happening in golden age books, just not enough out there. Also slightly less common with silver age keys, again fewer out there.

I suspect these are a mix of original books that were purchased, the swapped copy, and possibly the regraded "legitimate" book. He is obviously doing the same basic thing multiple times.

Ok, I know some people do not like some random forum person putting out random ideas, but here me out. When you buy a computer or electronic device, the often put a sticker that reads if broken or tampered with warrantee will be void, across edges that can be opened. They could add this style sticker to the edge of slabs, and if that sticker is broken, the comic must be regraded to retain it's certificate number and grade. Simple, cheap, no need for a new slab.

1. It was clearly a joke and many people took it that way. 2. I have been buying, trading, and selling comics for 30 years, both raw and slabbed. I am also a reasonably good grader. This is not experience or skills a new collector has. 3. Not all people have access to a network of dealers or friends that are honest and willing to work with them. You are very lucky to have that. While obviously a flawed system, in theory third party graders should give buyers a degree of confidence buying from strangers online, where you can not truly handle and evaluate a book as easily. You can not ignor the trend of more commerce happening online. The places you can buy old comics in person is shrinking, and getting to shows is not always possible. 4. Yes, slabs may invite certain investors and speculators into our space, that we do not want around. But also gives the new, inexperienced collector that wants to enter our hobby an avenue to buy with increased confidence, and seeing graded books, learn what constitutes certain grades. Classic double edge sword. Worts and all third party grading has helped to expand and grow comic collecting in both number of people doing it, as well as the value of many people's collections. Along with the growth of the internet, it has allowed me to see and acquire books I was never able to find locally, or at smaller shows. While I love the personal hands on aspects of collecting, if third party grading did not exist, this already small hobby would shrink to almost nothing, and new blood would be almost non existent in the modern collecting world. Unfortunately, I think comic collecting would die without it. Like it or not it has expanded to basically every type of collecting, and it is not going away. We have to accept that, but also make sure that it does what it advertises it does. The existence of grading also does not stop anyone from just buying books. I view it as a necessary evil.

We are way past popcorn at this point. Break out the alcohol.

It can, that has been discussed, and is a big problem. The thing is restoration to a trained eye, may be easier to spot even in the case, then what people have found so far.

These certificate numbers would more likely be the legitimate resubmitted books. The swapped books retain the original certificate number, so there would be no spific order to the certificates. Remember, he is buying real blue labels, swapping in a lessor book, then getting those better books re-graded. The swapped books will be harder to track, but CGC should have a list of all books submitted for re-holder. The buyers, have no access to this information.

Really glad my H181 was bought from a local shop raw, and checked for the stamp. I later had it stabbed. I can say at least mine is 100% accurate.

Ticks near Wolvies claw also line up exactly. I agree same book. Is anyone willing to go to Sarasota and crack one of these books open in front of CGC witnesses, if the owner can be found?

Crack Press Regrade

Which is why they are targeting higher graded copies with high value variants or know issues that would be completely hidden once encapsulated. The things that appear on high grade notes are often really general. Like, 1 small tick noted on spine, or slightly blunted corner. So not very informative. Thus, the description is often not enough to tell books apart without a photo, and they have figured out a way to substitute their photo. We are comparing photos where you can see the wrap, exactly where a spine tick is located, etc. Things the notes do not record, and so someone assessing a book for re-holder would easily miss a swap. I can see how this would be easily missed, without doing side by side photo comparisons. CGC is not comparing each resubmission with photos to see if it is the same book. It would be time consuming, and very costly. We are catching it because the insane people here are willing to take the time to compair, and are doing it on a handful of examples, not 1000's of books.

Personally, I suspect their process does cause some damage to the slab, but it does not look like tampering. We all know slabs with damage do not sell as well. So the individual needs the resubmission. Second, now that CGC is posting scans of graded books, if they can get the now re-slabbed book scanned and listed in the registry with the new image, it gives them more backing that this is the original and valid book. It also looks like CGC is backing their copy.

What it appears is happening is when books are being sent for re-holder, if the inner well is intact and shows no tampering or damage CGC is just re-slabbing, and not touching the inner well. They are not really taking more then a cursory look at the books themselves. They have been assuming the book in the slab is the book they had put in that holder. They are also assuming that tampering with a case would be obvious by its appearance. It now is clear that is not the situation. This goes along with what I understand is a long term policy that re-holder does not mean regrade, and in fact the book would keep its old grade as long as there was not obvious damage. I may be wrong, but that was always my understanding.

Because, even if CGC finds the error, they are not going to jump to the conclusion that the submitter is attempting to commit fraud. More then likely they will call them and say the found some issues with the book. They would then ask. 1. Do you just want us to return the book 2. Try and fix the issues with a press, etc 3. Re-grade with the chance the grade drops or may get a different label. We have no idea if the person has had books rejected, we just know some have gotten through. We have no idea what their success rate is with this. Even if CGC has caught some, the submitter is never going to admit what they are doing, the will act surprised and say, wow thanks for catching that, but I am disappointed. CGC is non the wiser about their true intentions.