ESeffinga

I thought about that. My impression was that what Jason has posted on CAF seemed like roughly 50/50ish between mainstream "name" characters, and more modern characters. But there are some real keystone type pieces for someone so new to the market. When I've seen folks hop in with both feet this way, I feel like they usually go for the "accepted" trophy pieces by the usual names. That usually involves the men in tights. It's fun to see someone eschew that, and go with their gut on things more personal to them, even when the costs are up there with that other stuff. BUT there is definitely a streak towards the indy and outsider esoteric characters in Jason's collection. I really dig it. Refreshing to me, personally. It often takes a lot longer for collectors to dig into the offbeat work (from what I've seen generally). And Jason, apologies if we sound like we are talking around/about you. I'm super glad you are here, and hope you chip in when you can. It can be hard to define for someone else why we like what we like. And when a collection isn't quite what everyone else is into, it can compound that awkward explanation. Not that it needs to be explained away of course. But it can be super enlightening to read (or hear on a podcast) someone else explain how they feel about their collection, and their methodologies/rationalizations/ and approach for adding to it. The more that "different" collections enter the market, the more interesting I think it makes art collecting. It's less fun to me, when so many folks are into so many of the same things. And I'm always learning, and finding new things to appreciate. It never goes away.

If that turns out to be the case, they should have known better.

For sure. But the other observation that I had, is that here we are presented a collector with some means, who has exhibited a depth and breadth of taste and leanings somewhat beyond his 90s nostalgia zone and is clearly looking at the history of the medium and the artistic contributions of the creators both older and newer. And yet I don’t see any of the “founding fathers” works that are so often grandfathered in. No Kirby. No Romita Sr. No Ditko. Seems like the way back art that he looks to from “before his time” is that of the 80s. It is true that one man, is not an indicator of a future, but it is collectors like this I’d pay attention to, if I was sitting on a raft of older works. I mean, looking at the sums being bandied about, work by those elder statesmen of comics is attainable. But as of yet not represented yet. I am overjoyed in hearing a newer collector speak about being willing to take that financial commitment beyond looking at art as investment, or a total nostalgia burst of dopamine, and really going for the work itself as the rush, even where the larger sums are involved. Of course he is presumably just getting started. Looking forward to see how he continues to grow his collection, and where he is in 5 years time.

Doom Artists choice.

Vince Colletta over Kirby?

Apples and oranges because 2 different artists, and so a terrible comparison, but here's one from Jean Giraud of the same character that sold at auction at Heritage last year... Again, different artist, so not a great comparison on that front. Same character/theme (that you seem to have a beef with) selling just a few months ago for 40K. There's another one in an auction after that for over $35K. Now, I don't for a second think this new guy is JG. Just indicating that Blueberry is way more popular as a character than you seem to want to give credit for. https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jean-giraud-blueberry-tome-planche-6-dargaud-1971-/a/7208-91093.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ArchiveSearchResults-012417&lotPosition=0|1 And just since I want to put a finer point on it, according to Wikipedia, the book for the 22K page is a new one, so who knows how that will be received long term. Only time will ever tell on that front. Here's the history of Blueberry for you if you are genuinely interested and didn't know this has been a big ongoing thing since the 60s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueberry_(comics)

Rick, TL/DR response is: I don't have good answers for you. I was responding to you, and also to Vodou, who mentioned his feelings on the 2 pages compared to each other, and how it impacts his feeling on the pricing relative to each other. I like those kinds of conversations and I tend to agree far more with his assessment than yours regarding the examples you chose to roll with. And yes, I do tend to look at the art when figuring values out for myself. When I look at work, I find that I tend to be far more objective than most. It's tough in a market where nostalgia is king. Odd man out and all that. I know I'm an outlier in this regard, as there are a lot of folks in the OA art game who tend to be very comfortable in buying up lousy draftsmanship for bonkers $$$ as they are for buying genuinely good work for the same money. Don't like my assessments, you can feel free to ignore me altogether. I think there is even a feature for that here on the board, if you find I drift a little too off topic, and I write too much. I know it's a problem. I try to bring whatever insight I can to a topic, as the mood strikes. Most times I just skip writing altogether. Often I'm a broken record. We all have our interests. Mine is in art, the making of it, the drafstmanship and craft of it, and the viewing of it. I read these money threads and chuck-in as best I am equipped to. I don't think Arak has any kind of cachet anywhere. Not just as a lack of artistic achievement for anyone, but in the hobby as a whole. I can't think of the last time Arak came up in conversation anywhere other than as a joke between myself and friends, since I had more than a couple Arak comics at 7 years old. So why would anyone park ANY money there? I've already said I'm not fluent in the European market enough to know I can't assess why that particular page is 22K, beyond the artist's work is leaps and bounds better than what was presented as your preference for a $300 option. We've already established you don't know the answer to this 22K question either. Just that presumably you wanted to compare good apples to bad ones. Hence my critique of the alternative provided, which let's be frank is poor, no matter how it is cut. You want to argue it's relative cheap price as some sort of threshold for what is acceptable in place of the expensive page, and asking a largely not-european centric board to justify it for you? I'm sure I could find a ton of examples of native-american characters (poorly) represented in comics, and still not get any closer to explaining why that Amertume Apache page is stickered like it is, or important to it's would be audience. As close as I get is that it's Blueberry, which is a HUGE character originated by Moebius in the 60s. Blueberry art has LONG been a competitive market, and has quite a track record. Where Chrisophe Blain falls on the respectability ladder, I don't know. Is he more Herb Trimpe than Moebius, not from what I've seen. Maybe more Sean Murphy in his pricing optimism? Could be? You say: "its lack of familiarity to most collectors works against the pricing". Is this because you are not familiar with it? Or because the people on this board aren't familiar with it? Do you really think this board is representative of the majority of collectors? The world is HUGE. The fans of Manga are legion. In Europe, the cons are massive, and take over entire towns/cities, not unlike SDCC. Except a lot of the characters present there would be totally foreign to the folks on this board. They certainly are to me, even after 30 years of art collecting. Even with me visiting foreign dealer's sites looking at the work they sell. I can't even possibly keep up. The prices and the artists, and the characters are all a world away sometimes. But it doesn't mean it doesn't sell or isn't worth it to them. Is it optimistic? Maybe. Is that Arak page optimistic at $300? It is to me. I could buy a cheese burger from McDonalds. It will taste like and leave me feeling like after I eat it. But it's a buck. Some dudes are not only satisfied with that burger, but think anything more than that is crazy? Five Guys? Meh! We could buy a Kobe beef burger for $250. If I'm only ever about eating McDonalds, that $250 burger might seem like a seriously stupid idea. And yet, people do buy them. I don't see them go in and order them, and I don't see them being eaten, I don't have a record of it taking place, but I know it happens, just as it happens with McDonalds burgers. So, maybe someone hip to the Euro market knows something concrete and chimes in. Schools us all. I'm looking forward to that. Until then, we work with what we have. _ Why does Raphael Grampá ask $15K? Because, like Jim Lee, he often gets it, or something close to it. Supply/demand, as far as that goes. He is hot. He is good. Who else new is supposed to get that kind of money? Comics is littered with dudes reaching high. Go back and read my responses in that Jim Lee thread about the commission prices from Lake Como. OA collectors ask artists to shut up when they talk about wanting a percentage of future sales as their work increases in price over time. But we also don't want to pay them a premium when they are trying to sell their work today? That's trying to have it both ways, IMO.

Indeed. And I say this as someone that was offered THE Arak cover from my childhood just this week for a very reasonable price. I turned down the opportunity, because I'm just not a nostalgia collector, and don't really have a place for it. But I did pause for a moment to think about it. While you may not care for the Amertume Apache page, it certainly has a solid style and a certain level of mastery about it. A little stiff for my taste, but it's very solid, and the drawing is right on. Where as that Arak page you've posted, the background figures are the best bits of drawing. The large Arak figure in the top panel is not good at all (why does he have such a small head?), and the bottom 2-shot is pretty foul. Now with a tiny face in the middle of his head? I can't tell you why the AA page is the price it is. Frankly it's not a book I know, or my area of expertise. I only know that a lot of European comic artists often run circles around their U.S. brethren, where the art is concerned. I have only a limited knowledge of the creators from Europe. I too find myself looking at their work a fair bit, when I can. I only wish I'd had better avenues to buy some of it when the art was cheaper. I have a number of favorites that I'd happily buy today if I ever stumble across them (and they aren't priced into the stratosphere), but it's certainly a different market. And just as European buyers ahve to familiarize themselves with the US art market, we have to put in the same work to get in on their thing. And most folks from the other side of the pond speak a lot better English than I do French or Italian, for instance. AND for the record, great drawing in comics isn't the only important thing, but when that there is drawing on the page that is the only thing notable about the piece in question, the drawing ought to at least be pretty good, yeah? Otherwise wonky drawing of wonky character in wonky scene with nothing of note happening? I mean, make the man look depressed or whatever you are trying to convey. He looks like he's trying to not float an air biscuit in polite company. And the second panel, he is a blank. Like someone badly copying a face out of a Hogarth how-to book. He's talking, but his mouth is closed?

Wonder if the red linework will turn some folks off. (oh, be honest, collectors are weird) Any pics of the back?

Its exactly what it looks like. I've seen this happening more and more with OA on eBay. I think it's more than one person doing it. It's catching on.

I can see a reason why not. The hypothetical well-heeled Millenial might rather have another McFarlane cover? Unless they are just ticking off boxes for stuff they know is all historical n stuff, so they can show their friends how into that old timey comic history they are? "Check out my Comic Buyer's Guide collection. It's all on -yellow paper, like newspapers used to be." Pulls up newspaper photo on Wikipedia to show younger friend what a newspaper is. Plus it'll be cheaper when we die.

I don't know about you, but with some of the comics I've read, the ads ARE the good part.

Anybody who is totally satisfied by Goarusso’s work should absolutely have at it. Anybody who truly thinks they are the “same simple kiddie lines” would probably be happy with a Manley over a Miller, or a Sal over a Steranko. You know, same simple comic book characters... outlines and stuff.

For the record my post had very little to do with Luke Cage, and more was a very sad jab at Gene, who likes to remind us all from time to time that the end times are coming as the boomers fade from the Original Art market. Its the first I’ve seen of him talking about things on the upside rather than down in a while. But please do go on, and do tell us more about this Luke Cage character, and his definitely not cancelled Netflix show.

But it's gonna drop off any day now. Boomers and all...

Its this desire to quantify everything, label everything, put tags on everything so there is some form of non-existant formula for art to make it easier for folks that don't want to put in the time to learn the ins and outs of a particular facet of the original art market. "Please CGC catalog it so I know what to pay, please." It's trying to bring comic collection checklist/spreadsheet mentality into it. There is no buyer's guide. No one is gonna hold your hand and give you the blog, catalog, spreadsheet to tell you what a thing is actually worth (even those that try). And chasing the commodification side of art is, frankly, missing the whole point IMO. It's supposed to illicit an emotional or intellectual response. Not a financial one.

A thought about archival, self adhesive mylar corners... I used to have these on a fair number of pieces in my collection. I liked them because they make it super easy to occasionally swop standard comic pages out of a frame. Allowed me to change things over every couple of years or so, fairly easily. Especially when I was hanging a lot of very similar pieces, like Tim Sale Long Halloween pages. What I learned about them is that if (and this is a big if that can have all kinds of side effects), but IF the piece falls from the wall, that mylar and glue are not going to move. The art on the otherhand is not affixed to anything, and there is no real friction to help hold onto it, if it's not sandwiched between a backer and a top mat. So when the art is only gripped by these corners, it may continue to try and move as the frame hits the floor. So if you are real lucky, the mylar corners will pop loose when the frame hits the floor. If you are less lucky, the art itself will get kinked or even small tears at the edges of the mylar. With comic art board, I've only ever seen dings. With thinner paper stocks, I've seen actual minor tearing. Thankfully the only thing of mine to ever fall off a wall was during a minor earthquake we had here on the east coast a number of years ago, and that was a freak incident. Though if I lived in earthquake country, I'd be thinking very seriously about japanese hinges (they are made for such drops), plexiglass, and not free-floating anything of significant value. Just my .02¢

When you’ve got $16k in books counting on it, it’s shelves?

The Bruce Timm pieces, the Mike Mignola sketches, the Watterson and Schulz stuff. These are knocked off very regularly. And yet for anyone familiar with these artist's work, the real and the fake can generally be spotted in seconds, if not instantly. It just depends on the quality of the photo/scan of the piece. If the listing is out of focus, just walk away. Not worth the potential for shenanigans.

FWIW, there is an entire website devoted to old comic ads/catalogs... http://www.comicartads.com/

And the Zulli may well be completely unpublished. Either unused, or just done as an "art" piece. There was a book titled Puma Blues, that had imagery not terribly different from this, in it. I recall there being Satyr busts on columns in there. But I don't recall this piece being in that book specifically. It may be an entirely new(ish) piece that went totally without publication. Almost looks like maybe dated '06. Well after Puma Blues. Since his issues on Sandman, Zulli has done a lot of pieces in this vein and sold them to his art fans, without any of it seeing publication that I am aware of. Often very large works (bigger than comic art board size). Generally a few hundred dollars a pop. Eder has had something similar for a while, though his looks more like a PB era piece. https://www.scotteder.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=9519&ArtistId=763&Details=1&From=Room

Unless someones art collection is SO complete they have nowhere else to put their money, and the only thing remaining to complete it is a wonky Schuster piece, why on earth buy this one? They could feel so much better putting that money towards any amount of great looking, obviously real art that does not have to be accompanied by a page long written explanation of why it looks so bad. But if they own everything else and this is what’s left... hey a collector gotta collect, yeah?

Agreed. Mine is a printed list of information that lives with the wills and other important papers.