comicjel

Agree - the Pay Copy with the provenance of the writing / signatures is a nicer copy to me!

Actually, I think the opposite - I can not picture how tears would happen there in that way - but we can only tell so much from scans - so it is hard to settle anything on this! Suffice that it appears to be a generous 9.4!

There is a CGC 2 page board thread from 2012 called "Marvel Comics #1 Windy City Copy Identified" (I do not know how to link threads??), but when you read the the 20 or so posts, it "does" sound legit that this was the Windy City copy - there are photos of the book from the 1980s from the original purchaser of the Windy City collection, and it looks to be the same book. So the "pedigree" aspect seems ok. Funny though, the posters back in 2012 seem to be surprised it was a 9.0 and not lower!

Is it definitely a tear seal on the back, and not just a successful press of a rough area? Looks like it could just be a heavy clean and press.

Maybe all will be given a new custom label?? CGC presents... The Reholder Scam Collection!

That sucks!!! - sorry!! Looks like a nice! 7.5... I suspect the book inside likely has a coupon or page clipped out or maybe resto

If he had no insider... he would be limited to just a reholder scam, and need to purchase strong 9.8s to be able to consistently get 9.8 over and over on the same "master" books, before swapping them out with the inferior books - and getting custom labels would be the best cover for so much reholdering. If he had an inside reholder person... he could more safely do the above, as well as get more exotic with his scams, including labels comfortably switched from non-MJI to MJI; and non-newstand to newstand without the concern of the extra scrutiny that may accompany such swaps / label changes. If he had an inside grader... he could count on generous grading and only need reholdering to subsidiize the scam as needed. If he had both... he could: - create a s-load of inferior 9.8s over a relatively short period of time - dabble in SS book upgrades (and who knows what else with SS books??) - accomplish green to blue much more efficiently (and safer)

Not to my knowledge - I recall there was talk of a FF #5 in low grade that was possibly one of them.

No doubt, this is just a theory! - I have no proof of anything! - 100% a theory!... did I mention that this is theoretical? That said... I do not actually know the date they were fired (I never had access to the whole filing), but based on the pages that were posted, it sounds like CGC "initiated questioning" him in September, and he was not forthcoming until "several days in October", and based on the "list", the last submission for grading (as opposed to reholdering) by the "outside" scammers was graded on 11/28/23 - therefore, depending on if it was a pre-screen or not, it was likely mailed out by the outside scammers in September or October - so when you factor in the lag time between being mailed, and being graded, the timing may actually fit for the last grading submission to have been sent before the Terrazas firing, and none after. As additional support of this, based on the "list", the dates that the last 6 grading submissions, by the outside scammers, were graded, were as follows: 8/18/23, 9/13/23, 9/22/23, 10/19/23, 10/20/23 and 11/28/23 When you see the frequency that they were submitting for grading, and you assume that they were being mailed 20 - 40 days in advance of being graded (again depending on pre-screen or not), it is curious why there was no "grading" submission graded or in the queue for them in December?? - based on their submission frequency and that "their" scam was not discovered until 12/18, you would expect that they would have had a grading submission either graded in December or in the queue in December, but for some reason they broke their pattern before "their" scam was discovered... but "after" the Terrazas were fired. BTW, I know there was a submission in the queue referenced in the filing, but I am making the educated assumption that it was a reholder submission and not a grading submission - I base this on the fact that the scammers were frantically trying to get it sent back to them around 12/20, which if you think about it, they would not need to be as freaked out about it if it was a regular grading submission, since there is nothing about a grading submission that could implicate them of fraud (but a reholder submission clearly could)... and why would it be highlighted in the filing if it was just a submission of raw books being graded? (again, nothing could be fraudulent about raw books being graded) - so I conclude that it must have been a reholder submission in the queue to illicit freak out by the outside scammers and highlighting in the filing - (I have gone back to the filing, and have confirmed that it was a reholder submission that was referenced).

... and remember that the lawsuit for the outside scammers made reference to the scammers scrambling to get their most recent submission back - which had to be a "reholder" submission, because a regular submission could just be left as is with little concern. So the fact that they only had a reholder submission at that stage, may be telling.

True, and they were sending in books before they were hired too. I can picture a scenario where the scam is easier with insiders but not impossible without them.

LOL... or maybe "recent" one!

I could have actually rationalized that they might "not" have had an inside person if the scam was limited to reholder books, and if many of their original summitted 9.8s looked to be strong 9.8s and were almost always reholdered before sold - that would have made sense and seemed plausible to me. The problem was, and the reason I think there must have been someone on the inside, was that many of the originally submitted books that received 9.8 were not strong 9.8s (IMO) and were just sold instead of being reholdered (which really made no sense if the scam was to reholder inferior swapped books). To me the inside guy was more (or equally) for the originally submitted (generous) grades than for the reholdering aspect - and maybe this evolved more recently. But then, there also seemed to be a reholder person that was changing labels from non-MJI to MJI; and non-newstand to newstand, apparently without checking the original scans (or notes) and, as I emphasized in an earlier post, the part of this label changing swap that I found more difficult to accept, was not that the reholder department might be somewhat lax with such label changes (I could accept that pretty easily), but more so that the outside scammer would have felt comfortable that they would not be discovered by attempting this type of swap / label change... how could the outside scammers feel so bold with such a risky label change, that you would almost expect to be scrutinized more, unless they had someone on the inside? Now enter Mr. Terrazas, based on the recent filing... he is a grader (check) and he had access to reholdering books (check) and he was able to print labels for reholdered books that did not match the book being reholdered (check) and he had a spouse who had internal access as well (check) - if you were to search for the perfect inside guy for what we see happening, this would be your "one stop" inside guy! (or certainly someone with similar access). Now consider the case brought against the Terrazas'... what was it, 23 stolen books? - huge deal I agree!; graded (by someone else), and then reholdered with incorrect (higher grade) labels - horrible I agree!. But how many of you attorneys out there feel that CGC would have brought this type of "public" filing for these 23 books (after they were already fired)? - to me this case had a reason that went beyond getting this already fired couple to return the remaining (if any) books that they had not already sold (or to try to get a recovery from them). I just don't see this lawsuit (including the timing) being pursued if they were independent of the outside scammers. There are other things... - SS books that seem involved somehow (by both inside and outside scammers) - Unbelievable quick turn around times on things - Grader notes on 9.8s that seem unusual So yes, I feel there must have been an inside guy, and I feel it was possibly Mr. Terrazas or someone with similar access (just my opinion based on 401 pages of reading!)

Now that we know that CGC has been investigating, at least the internal scam, for 6 months or so, and two separate lawsuits have been filed, and scans were added to the "verify" module a while ago, and a note about counterfeiting was added a while ago, and a lot of attention has been brought over the last month, I suspect that CGC has, by now, figured out the scam(s) completely. I don't think "we" have, but I think "they" have. It is likely we will never be told everything they know, and although I would like to know, I understand that for many reasons they can't / won't tell us. Through the last month, my mind has been changed on many facets of the scam(s) by all of you (hat tip to Comicwiz and Sledge). I am now of the opinion that both scams were related (i.e. that the Terrazas' were the insiders that were helping the other scammers) and that CBS was also likely involved (if not the main scammer). - I find it too coincidental that there were 2 independent scams happening at the same time that involved reholdering inferior books. - I am not sure CGC would even file the suit they did against the Terrazas' if they were not looking for their cooperation with the outside scammers. - The CBS heat gun photo is hard to ignore (along with their Instagram). - Labels being changed on reholders without scans or grader notes being reviewed implies inside help to me. - The reference to CBS in the filing did not sound to me as I would expect they would be referred to if CGC felt that they were innocent and fully cooperating. I think they are all related to some degree, and CGC is working their way up the ladder.

If CBS was given this type of authorization, then maybe they were also authorized (trusted) to just send in reholder books with a loose label?

If so, good thing it was not graded in 2019!

I think you have discovered something very important here!! How does one press a SS book with a 3rd party presser and resub it and still get a SS label back?? - doesn't that break some chain of custody with the signature witnessing?? This implies that CGC accepted the signature as legit somehow without getting the book back in the original CGC holder - all kinds of problems with this! I think you have found a new aspect to the scamming.

I can't put my finger on the scam, but my gut tells me that those SS books from the scammer are not what they appear to be.

Completely agree!! - original "grading" scans of all books should start to be loaded onto the verify module!

Hmm... so back in June or July of 2023 CGC started adding scans of newly graded books in their verify module (for "security" purposes), and at the same time added a generic note about contacting them if you suspect counterfeit activity with your book?? Sounds to me like CGC has been on to this type of scam in some fashion for longer than may have been thought! No kudos for transparency, but I am glad they started to make some meaningful changes without being guilted into doing so!

Agreed! But when you look at the 350 list, there were clearly certain books that were targeted more than others... ASM 194, 238, 252, 300 among them. Also, reholdered books need to be viewed with more skepticism now (especially 9.8 reholders).

The fact that it was graded 9.8 in 2011 and is now in a different holder than it was in 2011 (i.e. reholdered)... and that it is one of the books that the scammer liked to swap out through the reholder scam. Lastly, it looks a little loosely graded IMO for a 9.8 - a lot of dirt on back cover and lower spine corner looks soft. Just has a lot of characteristics that the scammers inferior reholder books had. Maybe not 99% but a higher percent than most of us would have likely thought before this scam was uncovered.

I think it is 99% that the comic in there now is not the comic that was graded in 2011.

You make a compelling case - it could be that CGC is working their way up! I hope not for his family, but I guess we will find out eventually!

LOL! - but would you have them use your CGC account and show off the books on your business Instagram page?