comicjel

First, the effort you are putting towards this, and the efficiency (and consistency) of the archive you are creating is amazing!!! Sorry to scroll in on one of the books, as I understand this post was intended as more of a global education of what is happening, but the Avengers 57 SS 9.6 intrigues me more than the others - I can not help but think that the SS books are involved in the scam somehow, but there is no obvious way that it seems they could be?? The Avengers 57 SS 9.6 seems like the same book through the various listing scans (there are too many exact characteristics for me to think that a different book has been swapped in), but there are changes happening to the book in it's inner well (and it is on the "list"), so it seems like it must have been reholdered... however it is the same book being reholdered, and is just acquiring minor new flaws along the way without getting any grade bump or label change - what is the benefit of this reholder?? - it just makes no sense to me??

Probably because it was not reholdered. The current thinking is that the "list" are books that were reholdered by the scammer - but this is still just speculation. You might ask, why wasn't this reholdered, since the scam, as we know it, involves getting legit 9.8 labels, and then reholdering them with inferior books? - that is a question that remains a mystery, and IMO is a reminder that we do not understand the whole scam yet.

It's easy for me to say, because I do not have any of those books in play, but put me in the camp (for now!) that CGC will eventually do right with the compensation - my nickel is that they will end up paying the higher of the purchase price or FMV plus something more for the trouble. Their absolute goal is that the last few pages of this thread will be filled with testimonies of happy "compensation" recipients... maybe I am a dreamer, but I have known Matt for decades, and if he has the final call on this, all those that went to the trouble of sending their books in will be taken care of.

I agree that there is likely no reason to return unused 9.8 labels (probably don't have many "unused" ones anyway), but I think it is very possible that the 9.2 and 9.4 labels from the inferior books might have been returned (maybe from a shill "customer") - if for no other reason than to have the "verify" scans disappear. But this is just speculation on my part - until we learn more from CGC, or discover more from sleuthing, there continues to be more questions than answers.

Strange!?!

I am pretty sure that is a "screened" book - being rejected for whatever grade is being screened for (prob 9.8). It has been a while, but I remember reviewing grading notes on rejected screened books.

I am sure you thought of this, but one way books / certs can disappear is by their label being turned back in to CGC. One aspect of this scam that might be happening is that once the scammer finds a nice book to use in the scam (either as the master 9.8 book or as the inferior swap-out book), if either of those books are "starting" in an old style inner well holder, they first need to get them into newer type inner well holders, before they can start using them in the scam - as such, there may be a lot of loose older style labels being returned to CGC by the scammer, and effectively being expunged from CGCs records (especially the inferior book original labels).

Curious if you (or anyone) has seen a swapped book from a holder that does not appear to have been reholdered? I ask because I wonder if that may be happening with some of the books from his original submissions that are not on the "list" and were instead just sold after being graded.

This is the first known book to be swapped without getting a custom label, right? However, it has been reholdered - I guess the old fashion way... maybe through a cracked case.

Both things can be true... They want this issue to go away, but they want to find out how it was done, to prevent it from happening in the future - no reason to believe otherwise.

I agree! - there is a carelessness to this scam that is out of proportion to the risk / reward - an overconfidence that does not make sense! Imagine the evidence that could have been gathered against the scammer if CGC had figured this out internally first? - CGC could have pulled in authorities while the scam was ongoing (figured out if there were accomplices) - it's like the scammer was not worried about that at all!

Using the "verify" feature, I have determined the 34 books that were included in the last 6 submissions that we believe were done by the scammer - of those 34 books, 11 books are on the "list", presumably because they were reholdered. Of the 23 books not on the list, 17 were the usual suspects (ASM 238, 252, 300; X-men 266; New Mut 98; Hulk 340; MSH 8) - all graded 9.8. For the scam, as we know it, these 17 books provided the 9.8 labels to be used to swap in inferior books, but for some reason, "none" were reholdered, in fact 6 (by my count) were just sold after being graded (probably more, because I just looked at GPA). So the pattern does not fit!?! To truly understand the scam, I think we need to understand why some 9.8s are reholdered with inferior books and some are just sold. I keep coming back to the thought that the originally submitted books that are getting graded 9.8 (at an extremely high success rate no less) and then sold are also inferior books somehow? Why else would the scammer sell them, when they could have just swapped in inferior books in their place like they were doing with the other 9.8s??

I feel that many of us on these Boards have a vested interest for CGC to continue to succeed and improve full stop. We sleuth, we point out what we find, we compare notes, we criticize... with the goal that improvements will be made.

I thought about that, but remember he would be making such a decision on a book that he just submitted to hopefully get a 9.8, and did! - not the book you would expect would be pulled from the rotation (maybe after getting a 9.6, but not on the heels of getting a 9.8). What makes me more suspicious is that the book does not look (to me) like a book I would ever have dreamed of getting a 9.8 on, and it is 1 of 7 books from a submission that "all" 7 received 9.8 (all 30+ year-old books getting a 9.8) - and based on his other submissions, it does not appear that his books are being screened for 9.8. It's just circumstantial, and speculation on my part, but I just feel there is an aspect that goes beyond just gaming the reholder system.

In relation to your observation with the 9.8 grader notes, I find it odd that some of these same 9.8s that did not make the "list", presumably because they were not reholdered, were instead, just sold. An example is #4324007007 (ASM #300 9.8 graded 9/13/23 and sold 10/3/23). The scam, as we know it, is to acquire 9.8 labels with legit 9.8 books, and then get inferior books reholdered using those same 9.8 labels... So why sell the legit 9.8 book in the acquired 9.8 holder? From the scammer's perspective, isn't that a waste of a perfectly good 9.8 label?? To me, there is an aspect of this scam that does not necessitate a book being reholdered somehow. To be sure, the scammer seemed to bank on a lax reholder system for the inferior books that were being reholdered, but it also seems like the scammer could count on getting a very high percentage of 9.8s on his regular submissions... even books that had "slight spine stress". Look at the "verify" scan of the lower right back corner (sorry, I do not know how to link stuff!!) - is that a flaw that you would expect to see on a 9.8?? - remember, this is the original submission, not a reholdered book, and not a book from the "list".

?? - All 3 scans are 9.8 I know the replacement book was likely not a "true" 9.8, but it was in a 9.8 holder when it was reholdered for a 2nd time. But, Nick already nailed it - it was likely resubbed the 2nd time by the dupped buyer, which explains it.

yes, makes sense!

True! - I guess since his main hustle has dried up, he may find a future at the CGC reholder department... rumor has it that they have an opening (pun intended).

Also curious why the scammer would go to the trouble of getting the "2nd" reholder just to get the newsstand notation?? - can't imagine that he needed that notation to sell it at the newsstand price.

More like 2 legit blue 9.8, purchased in 8/2022, along with 36 inferior books, become 36 reholdered 9.8's (based on the "list"), and they still have the legit 9.8s to keep churning (until the music stopped).

Looks like the inner well has not changed - which implies to me that they are just making sure that the book is the same as when originally graded (which I assume they are determining from original scan). BTW... Nice book!!

They can not be regrading the book, because they are not cracking them out, and they do not sound like notes that would be expected on a legit 9.8, so maybe they are only notes that can be seen through the case now on an inferior replaced book??

All I am saying is that scams that involve separating the books from the original labels would be harder to accomplish if the original label had the original comic scanned IMO. Yes the scan would be small, and you certainly could not see minor details, but most comics have lines in the art that go to the edges of the book that are easy to see if they match or not (even with a small scan). Also, it is just one tool - if something did not match up well, you could then go to the "verify" scan and see more detail. Just looking for deterrents to the scam we know, that maybe can be implemented ahead of a 2 year case redesign.

That is a good point!

If I were advising CGC, I would improve the label itself to include a high resolution scan of the ungraded book (right after being graded, but before slabbing) - maybe front of book on front of label, and back of book on back of label. I know they include scans now in the cert verify, and those are good!, but I think having the scan on the label (right above the actual book) would be easy to compare when buying online (or in person). Not a be all end all cure for all scams, just an added feature that would make this type of scam harder to pull off.