comicjel

Add a scan of the ungraded book to the label - not really a new holder, but a change that will make purchasing such graded books safer and easier to verify - will have a good deterrent factor as well.

As "maybe" this thread winds down, I find an aspect of the scam, as I believe we think it happened, to still not make sense to me so much. The original "discovered" swap that started all this (i.e. the reholder to get the ASM 252 9.8 MJI). To accomplish this scam, we think the guy had 2 books - a newstand 9.8 and a MJI 9.4 (or was it 9.2??), and that he sent in the MJI 9.4 with the Newstand 9.8 label and ended up with a reholdered MJI 9.8. What really still bugs me about this specific swap is how the scammer "ever" would have felt confident enough to try to get CGC to both reholder this book (that presumably had a tampered outer holder) "and" to get them to effectively admit that they missed the MJI when originally graded "and" to feel confident enough that they would not go back and look at the original scan of the book. To me that seems like adding multiple levels of risk to a scam that was working pretty seamlessly. The scammer is going to take all that "extra" risk for what would effectively be a one-time benefit?? It's not like you could claim that they missed the MJI multiple times and not draw attention to yourself, right? if adding this wrinkle causes CGC to go back and compare to the original scan, EVERYTHING is blown up!! - this money printing machine just seizes up! I know you guys are going to say "crooks are dumb" and "crooks get careless"... but it is just an aspect of this scam that I can not shake! - I guess it is what makes me think that this is much bigger than it appears to us.

If the scammer was able to switch out the books without leaving "any" trace of the case being tampered with, it follows that they would not have needed to send the books back to CGC to get reholdered - why risk it (and pay for reholdering) if not needed? To me, it's more likely that the swap-out left some small marks or minor cracks on the case, such that the cases needed to be reholdered to make the books safe to sell. I believe the scammer gambled (or otherwise felt comfortable) that the reholder person / people were not really checking the holders closely, and that the reholder process had become more of an assembly line for collectors getting custom labels for their books. It's certainly possible that the books can be swapped out without leaving any trace, but I do not feel that this has been proven yet by what we know so far.

I suspect they are only determining that the book currently in the slab is not the book that was originally graded - you do not need to open the case / book to determine that it is a different book if you have scans of the originally graded book. I very much doubt they are seeing a different book, but thinking it looks in similar grade, so all good! Basically, any book that was not the originally graded book, but otherwise looks to be in the same grade is likely assumed to be restored; missing a page; missing a MVS; etc.

Hm... what did you do with your ASM 252 MJI?? I might have a lead on where it ended up!

Not sure how others feel, but personally I am willing to bid higher on older label high grade books (everything else being equal) - not as much because of probably not being pressed (although that is a plus), but maybe more so because CGC was pretty strict with their grading back then IMO - so I feel like the 9.8s are really quite perfect, and the 9.6s are really more like 9.7s, and maybe more than anything, it reminds me of the good old times!

Submission #4324007 (graded 9/13/23) had all 7 books (30 - 40 years old each) receive 9.8 - bowled a perfect 300! I've never come close to having a submission like that! Maybe they were screened for 9.8, but based on other submissions from the Hot 350 that were graded before and after that date, it does not appear that screening was being used, since at least one book from each of those other submissions was lower than 9.8. The success that this guy had in getting 9.8s on the original submissions (not talking about the reholders) was uncanny! Just an observation... and maybe a little jealousy!!

After the final Rolling Stones farewell tour

I've thought the same thing many times!! I have several unpressed 9.6 candidates that I am too chicken to risk trying for 9.8

If there was ever a case study about the pros and cons of pressing books, the 9.8 Curator ASM #1 that just sold on Heritage would be Exhibit #1 - I have seen that book "evolve" over time - I guess it's a good thing!?! - certainly to the one who had it bumped from 9.6 to 9.8!

Would be ironic if those first passed through CCS before being graded

Exactly! - that is how I remember it. Further, I have waffled through the years about pressing - I have landed on... try to buy books that do not "look" pressed to me, but assume everything has been pressed.

I have been collecting for long before EBAY, CGC, etc. (although I am relatively new to these Boards) - I remember that clean (with chemicals) and press was given a purple label, but I always thought press alone was never considered "restoration" - I remember sending nice unrestored books to Matt before his company merged with CGC, and not being concerned that they would get a purple label - maybe this was "after" the time you are describing??

Fantastic information! - clearly implies that things scaled up as time went on (but I also realize that the "population" of books may also be skewed by time, in the manner that they were identified). I also would be curious to know what the 4 books that were sold from 2014 through 2016 were? - these would not be custom label reholders I believe.

If there is ever a true Armageddon, the only things left will be twinkies and Comiclink stickers!!

At this point, sign me up!!

I hear you, and I would love to see a perfect holder created one day, but think about all the graded comics that are already out there - are we going to need to get them all regraded (or reholdered) when a better case is designed? Nothing is going to be perfect, but this scam was discovered by devoted hobbyists, basically "you guys" by comparing scans (as was Ewert scam for that matter) - if there were more scans from CGC of originally graded books, and an easy way to view them, I think that would be a huge deterrent, and it would improve the confidence in past graded comics as well as future graded comics.

IMO the biggest deterrent to both the reholder scam as well as the feared scam of replacing a graded comic without leaving a trace (which I still have some skepticism about) are the CGC scans of the graded books that you can review through the "verify" system. I know that they have only been doing that for about the last 6 months, but I have heard that CGC has scans of every book that they have graded - if so, I feel CGC should start adding those archived scans for all books (start with the higher value and work down). At the very least, you should be able to purchase them for a small fee. I also feel that when a book is reholdered, they should still keep the original graded scan, and add the reholdered scan - again as a deterrent more than anything. If down the road you could review the original scan of any graded book, I feel that would replace the need for a new holder - again... IMO

I might be a dreamer but... Since the reholder process seems to have been the obvious weak link for scammers, and since CGC has the history of all reholdered books, CGC really has the ability to root out "likely" most of the "graded comic scammers" through close examination of past reholdering patterns (and their internal scans). We will likely never get the details, but unlike other types of scams, this one is pretty easy to go back and check now that they know what to look for, so it seems like CGC will be able to purge the scammers from using their services through a pretty easy check of past grading and reholdering records, and if they are so inclined, could eventually have a pretty accurate list of likely tainted books.

Actually, they have scans of the last time it was reholdered - not graded - just sayin!

I think CGC should start printing a high resolution scan of the ungraded book on the CGC label (maybe even front of book on front of label and back of book on back of label) - I think it would make things safer.

I dunno... carpet "lays the groundwork" for the whole operation!!

Good reminder that CGC has created many great experiences for me as well - looking forward to getting back to those!!

That's makes sense! - thanks!

I realize that at this moment these are not known to be tainted books at all, and further, it seems that the switch scam would not work (as we know it) with signed books. Makes me wonder if there is a different loophole that could be exploited when getting books signed?? - I have never had a graded book signed - does CGC regrade books that are getting signed? If not, do they require the books remain in both holders to avoid regrading and keep the "unsigned" grade?