Rick2you2

That’s the role Heritage fulfills. It’s final sales prices on auctions becomes a standard. Who doesn’t look at past auctions to gain a sense of cost for things?

Here is an example you will never see, but it came up with a client of mine. A public body decided to go out for public bidding for a particular system. It set very high standards for the various components. Under the legal rules in place, the public body could amend the specifications so long as there were 5 days left before bidding closed. Now these are not off the shelf systems—it takes time to design components into a system. On the 5th day before bid closing, the public body radically cheapened the component requirements. When bids were opened only one bidder was able to submit a bid with the cheaper components, knocking out all the other higher bidders. Why? They didn’t have the time to redesign everything to be able to compete. The one winning bidder must have been told in advance by the public body of the cheaper system which could be substituted. No proof, so no one could go fight it in court.

It isn’t a market corner type of manipulation. It an expectancy manipulation. There are lots of ways to play games.

Let me add that I am not making that claim about the run up in Aparo art where I think a scarcity of good material for a long time was only remedied earlier this year and which led to aggressive buying. I bought one as well, and it was definitely more than what looked like market. Dillin is not the same.

The world is not out to get me, and Lee already mentioned what he thinks the range ought to be. Price is not set in an auction like in a private deal. Bidders set it based on expectancies of what might carry the day. That’s a little different. In my line of work, I’ve seen how forms of price manipulation can be done, including bidding. Some of the stuff is pretty creative. Let’s see what happens in the next three weeks and whether a new, surprising price level is set. I could be wrong, and I hope I am.

Your responses are inconsistent. Earlier, you wrote "They've got it and you want it, so it's "hot" to you even if no one else. As long as everybody has other sufficient sources of income or savings, they will set the price not you" That's exactly right. Which is why a fictitious pair of bidders is a great way to reset the market price by using Heritage. By the way, I'm not whining, just warning this looks suspicious to me. Dillin's art is, as someone earlier wrote about some other art... "mundane".

That's too easy an answer. There is too much of the stuff out there. You don't need 'bots, quants, or algorithms for systemic rigging. Some of the worst of in this country was in the 19th century before we even had those terms. All you need is money and finding a bottleneck or pressure point. Pretend you have 50 Dillin pieces (there is a lot if it out there) which sold previously for $700-900. That would be worth $3,500-4,500. You place 2 with Heritage for sale and have a friend or 2, or 2 accounts, bid up the price to $3,200. You have now reset the sales value of the remaining 48 pieces to what may be $153,600. All it has cost you is the buyer's and seller's premium on 2 pieces plus shipping, That's about 35% of $700-900 x 2 or less than $650. Not a bad investment, if the price sticks. Even if it doesn't fully stick, even a partial increase is likely. Heritage sales have a way of becoming price guidposts. No algorithim at all. Just a well thought out plan nicely executed. Is it possible there were just 2 crazy bidders? Sure. Maybe there were other fans of the Phantom Stranger and Adam Strange who considered them must have pieces. They are both such popular characters. Please excuse me for being suspicious. There seem to be few people around here who want to accept this possibility despite articles mentioned on these boards about how art prices can be rigged. This looks like a real life example.

I do buy things, based on what I like. What I am suggesting here is that as Lee pointed out, the price point should be "at the more reasonable $500-$1,000 range". Someone else emailed me they were happy with their purchase of a Dillin page for $400. Okay, I'm good with that. And if you look at Heritage there had been cheaper Dillion JLA pages just a few months earlier. But with that recently sold Dillin JLA page, and the earlier one with Adam Strange's wedding (which was worth a small bump up because of it) they will become price support for high prices by others because Heritage is a "go to" source for comparisons. That's how you rig a market. Then, when the "seller" reclaims the 2 pieces, he can resell them and wipe out the loss amount paid to Heritage for premiums, taxes etc. In the long term, I don't think this stuff is a good investment. But I don't spend that kind of money, so it doesn't matter to me. I understand people's resistance to the point I am making here. Prices sometimes go up because of greater appreciation for the art. That's not market rigging.

What annoys me about these prices is that the work isn't that hot, no matter that he worked on JLA or not. For example, in terms or quality, I think DeZuniga is really underappreciated.

Lee, Since you asked, another one is in auction, the next auction on Heritage has one coming up and then 4 more the week ending 12/17. RGL Art lists 12 at $1,500. Then there is Archangel at $4,500. Some others are now listing Dillin, too, at a higher amount than you have. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but an increased listing price based on what is being auctioned right now. So yes, more is coming out of the woodwork. I can see Dillin a bit more than $200-300 per page, but even $1,500? For stuff best suited for a coloring book? Keep up the good work, oh keeper of the market.

This is actually a pretty funny thread. Post what you want, when you want.

Lee, In your column you wrote about a Dillon piece involving the wedding of Adam Strange: $3,840 Adam Strange wedding page from a couple of weeks ago. Your ComicArtAds pre-auction estimate: $1,050 But then, this past weekend, a HA Auction resulted in this page going for $3,360. I don't happen to think much of Dillon's art, and I sure didn't bid on it. How is there any explanation for that price? All I can come up with is that two bidders lost their minds or someone is gaming the market for his art. I notice in weeks to come there are several more Dillon-JLA pages coming up, which is leading me to strongly suspect the latter. People here have talked about rigged markets before in a general sense, but this seems like pretty clear evidence of it.

Probably has worn off a bit. Also, there is the subject matter of course. I think his work is best suited for horror and/or mystery which isn't always the case with BM pages or something like Aquaman.

Not picky.

A good list. Let me say that I have bought things I didn't love when I bought them but later grew to appreciate them more for what they are.

I rather see him riding Mera.

Good point. Still high in my opinion. But it still isn't over $3,000 per page.

If you really like it, that is a different story. But how the hell to explain over $3,000 for it?

At that price point?

If I really want something, I will bid way over market price, so sniping doesn't effect me. What goes into the collection stays there, so market price doesn't matter, just my enjoyment of the art. And since I only buy things at the shallow end of the market, I don't really worry about the amount at issue.

I think it's more than nostalgia. I think this is a rigged market. This Dillin piece went on HA for $720 on Nov. 14th. It is certainly no worse than the one that just went for over $3,000: There are also some other perfectly "good" pieces in that range, some a little higher or lower. But then, you see this crazy price from August for $16,800.I get the "cool factor" with Amazo, the old history, and a premium, but come on, really? Can there be a rational explanation for the difference in price besides a fixed market or a at least two Buyers who really lost his sanity? There is also far too much of his stuff on the market, as you pointed out, unless there are hoards held by price-controllers. Some thing isn't right here.

No, and I was shocked by the price which is insane. You may have also seen other people's comments on these boards to the effect that while some people like it, Dillion's work is mostly appreciated for nostalgia reasons. Earlier in the year, there were several HA auctions where similar pieces went for $800-$1,000. Honestly, the only explanation I can think of other than a bout of temporary insanity (which can happen during bidding) is that someone or someones are rigging this market for his work. Maybe I will buy piece one day if the price is sensible. But not this.

I know of one instance where the opposite happened. The seller wanted $1,100 on CAF and didn't get it. He went to HA and is sold for $1,900 or so with Buyer's Premium but w/o sales tax. And no, it was not A list. Just middlle of the road Aparo.

Have you thought about giving Boardies first crack?

And what impressed me was the turkey's foot in the middle. I'm a big fan of poultry.