RockMyAmadeus

This is absolutely correct. What time frame are you referring to? Until Batman #612, the market universally rejected later printings as having any value. It's taken a long time for that stigma to dissipate.

Fair enough... I remember speculating on MOS #18 at the newsstand, so enough was known about the DOS story at the time it was out to know it was the "first Doomsday". When did we (active collectors and retailers) learn that Superman #75 would be his death? Was there any "leak" that told us "Doomsday is coming" meant that Superman would die? What books were on newsstands when we found out? Given the (unprecedented) jump in print run from MOS #18 to MOS #19, it seems easy to guess that everyone knew what was going on after the orders for MOS #18 were due and before the orders for MOS #19. These adds were placed in various DC books leading up to the event, and I'm pretty sure this is about as specific as they got... Edited to add: "This time the never-ending battle ends." I guess could be construed as meaning Superman's death. So, the bottom of that advertisement says "Man of Steel #18 through Superman #75"? That would explain why those two books could have been "predictable keys". The only issue people couldn't have seen coming from that ad is JLA 69. Also, the AC&E ad in MoS 18 featured the "Death of Superman Saga" with JLA 69 being the only issue not listed. Those ads really annoyed me. They were advertising books that hadn't even come out yet for more than cover price. MOS #18, for example, was $1.25...and in that very same issue, it was advertised for "$2"...in the exact same issue you just bought for $1.25. Also: I believe, but would have to find it, that the cover art for Superman #75 was on the cover of the issue of Previews it was in...which would have put it out somewhere around 2-4 weeks before MOS #18 hit the stands. The whole thing was very fast, as these things go. It was a bit like Death in the Family: new books every 2 weeks, and then Robin's dead the third issue. Sorry if that spoiled it for any of you, but...it was 1988, after all. Good points, all. I've got some observations to make, but right now, my net connectivity is limited. Lucky you!

To answer your "serious question," I'm not actually sure how my LCS knew or when. Perhaps they got a heads-up from someone at Diamond or DC. My question was serious, no quotes. Were they with Diamond? There were several distribution companies at the time; Cap City and Diamond were the two biggest. I suppose. We do see, from the numbers, that retailers didn't really jump on the bandwagon until events started unfolding. After all, Cap City only shows a 30% increase in order numbers from #17 to #18, and #17 even went DOWN from #16. I'd like to see more advertising material from the time period, but I am nearly positive that there was no such thing as "Death of Superman" as a reference for the entire storyline until the TPB was printed. There's not any reference to it that I can see from the books themselves (outside of Superman #75 directly, that is.) For MOS #18 - Superman #74 - Adventures of Superman #497 - Action #684 - MOS #19 the story was called "Doomsday" on the cover. This was in contrast to the "Funeral for a Friend" storyline, which had a headline banner at the top of all the books. So, I'm not sure how anybody would have referred to the storyline as "the Death of Superman" before Superman #75 came out, looking at it forensically. Superman #66 was just a "rumor" that never panned out. I distrust MY memory and anecdotes, as we should everyone's. That's why documentation is vital, especially when documentation contradicts our memories.

Oh yeah! Removing the goggles of childhood nostalgia and replacing them with viewers of an adult who's innocence is long gone, this statement rings true. The Poseidon Adventure... I'm going to go ahead and disagree with both of these points. As far as from a "literary point of view" I don't think the writers were going for anything as deep as, say, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. I think they wanted to do something BIG with Superman, and the idea snowballed organically into The Death of Superman. There is, of course, a spectrum, from great literary works (Watchmen) to pablum that's barely readable (say, Superboy comics from the late 50's.) You don't necessarily need to be going for anything deep...but they weren't even going for logical, reasonable, or rational, either. Why Louise Simonson was involved, other than the paycheck, I don't know. But the story isn't just not good...it's terrible. It makes no sense, it isn't logically consistent, there's no continuity, there's no motive for any of the events that unfolded...it's not much better than a college freshman English Lit creative writing project. You don't need to be Alan Moore's Swamp Thing...but Rob Liefeld's Youngblood isn't a goal to shoot for, either. That doesn't make much sense. They started the story in MOS #18, with one-page teasers in the previous 4 weeks' books. Then, 5-6 weeks later, it was over. I was referring only to DOS, not anything else, especially not his "return" three months after FFAF. I don't know where the "better part of a year" factors into it, could you clarify? I'm not sure how doing a "one off comic" shoots Superman with a Kryptonite bullet would have "simply moved books", or anywhere near as well. The stunt was extremely successful, no doubt about it, and there had to be *some* level of buildup. Oh, no, that would be a grave, grave mistake to assume that something that does well must therefore not be bad. It is, in fact, a bad story, badly plotted, badly paced, badly written, and badly executed. It succeeded in spite of it's poor execution, not because of it. There are endless examples of creative efforts that did well, despite the fact that they are terrible. After all, Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith (I had to look that one up, had no idea what it was called, that's how little of an impact it made on me) stand as prime examples of that. There's nothing wrong with having enjoyed it as a kid/young teen. My review wasn't meant to be a condemnation of those who enjoyed it at a young age. However, there does come a time when we should recognize that bad art is bad art, no matter how great we thought it was at the time. I don't know that you'll find many that will hold up DOS as an example of the best the artform had to offer at the time (Sandman, Sin City, Bone), or even good (Hellblazer, Unity), or even mediocre. But, you WILL find people who have reverence for the nostalgia of the event, and there's nothing wrong with that. It was certainly the biggest event to ever happen in comics, certainly before, and probably since. If you disagree, by all means, please discuss specific plot points/elements, examples of quality plotting/pacing, or other elements of the DOS story that you believe make it "not drekky." I'm certainly, as always, willing to hear well-reasoned opposing arguments. Don't get me wrong, there have certainly been (before and since) smarter Superman stories than DOS. Speaking solely about the 7 part Doomsday books, I look at it as an intentionally action packed & fast paced story ala Fury Road (though I'm sure there will be those who disagree) which climaxed with Superman going toe to toe with this mysterious, savage, monster until they fell, both seemingly dead. I look at it as a great snap-shot of Superman comics of that time, 1992. Hell, there are at least two Axl Rose references in the books. I don't know if I'm able to dissect it to the point where I'd be able to champion the story itself as a literary success. But as an exciting Superman read, I think it succeeded with flying colors. Sure, as a 30 year old reader now, there are lines of dialogue that make me wince a bit, but like I said, I chalk that up to being 'of the era'. Same thing happens when I watch the older Superman & Batman flicks now. To elaborate a bit, Sylvester Stallone recently stated in an interview that Rocky IV was different from the other films because it focused solely on the fight between Rocky & Drago, whereas the earlier films were more "story" driven. Film critics pretty much all skewered it. But fans loved it, making it the most financially successful film in the series, and the second most successful movie of 1985, behind only Back To The Future. Today, it's still a fan favorite and captures the spirit of Reagan's America perfectly, however flawed. The Death of Superman is essentially the Rocky IV of Superman comics. It just depends on whether you fall in with the critics or the fans. And you know what? Neither are "wrong" per say. Hope that helps! Not a problem, but...your initial response was to challenge my contention that the work was a poorly conceived, poorly executed story, right? You get no disagreement with me on your statements here. As I said, there's no problem with that. Personal taste is unassailable. If you liked it, you liked it, and it doesn't matter why. See my The Poseidon Adventure example. There's a difference, substantially so, between saying "This work is not of any literary quality", and "you're a morone for liking it." If we learn to look at impersonal, legitimate critique dispassionately, we can have fantastic discussions on a broad range of topics, without anyone becoming upset in the process. I think Star Blazers is one of the greatest pieces of Anime ever created. It doesn't bother me one bit if someone takes it apart critically, because there are legitimate critiques of it. And, if I'm a rational, reasonable adult, I will acknowledge and agree with legitimate critique, while allowing any sort of emotional response to cloud my judgment or cause me to internalize (that is, "take personally") any comments about it. I'm not a bad person, or a stupid person, or an ignorant (uneducated) person, or a lame person, just because I happen to like something that might be poorly conceived and executed, and neither is anyone else. And, if legitimate critique causes me to not have as much appreciation for a work that I previously loved, then that's not necessarily a bad thing, either. TPA is terrible. Just awful. But...no one can take away the awesome experience I had as an 8-9 year old, watching it in that perspective. I'll always have that, as long as I remember it. And the terribleness of TPA, or others agreeing with its terribleness, will never take that away. By the way...if anyone is looking for superb Superman stories, there are three that I would recommend off the top of my head. "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", originally in Action #583 and Superman #423 Action Comics Annual #1 Superman Annual #11

You could say the same thing about Star Wars: A New Hope. we knew NOTHING and had no back story of the characters or the world they lived in, George just dropped us right in the middle of the action and counted on the audience to fill in the blanks or figure it out, which is what I loved about it. wasn't that the appeal for a long time as well with Wolverine and his unknown Origins, until, that is, Marvel made his origins known. I don't mind not having every thing set up or explained to me before hand. I really enjoyed the Death of Supes storyline and the Funeral for a friend follow up. it's what got me back into comics as a young adult. I did NOT like the Four Supermen storyline that followed, (Cyborg, Superboy, Eradicator, and Steel), I think you're cherry picking some phrases in the criticism. The bottom line is that there's nothing established within the story either. You can pass on "setup" if your story reveals what the reader needs to know. The Death of Superman storyline didn't do that, from what I remember. not necessarily talking about just the setup, but the entire world of Star Wars was foreign to us without much explanation, my point was/is does everything need to be known to enjoy the story? we didn't know much of what "the force" was until of course Midiclorians, (ugh), some of my favorite movies/TV shows/stories are those that don't lay everything out for you. 2001 space odyssey, 12 Monkeys, just to name a few. The point, as Geeks pointed out, isn't that Doomsday was "mysterious." Mystery has its place, and is a long established literary device. Using your examples, we DID find out quite a few things about the characters in Star Wars, as the story unfolded. That is the essence of exposition: it exposes the motives, justifications, and reasons behind what the characters are doing, as the story progresses. We know, for example, that Luke Skywalker had a humdrum existence, and was looking for a way out of his humdrum existence, so when a faulty droid shows up, that serves as the catalyst for why Luke then did what he did. His motive is established. If his Uncle Owen had discovered the droid, especially knowing what he knew, he would doubtless have wiped it clean (as C3PO was about to do), and that would have been the end of that, and would have made for a rather short film. You'll notice, however, that Luke didn't simply jump on screen, light saber blasting, with no explanation as to who this character was, what he was doing, or why, and with no such explanation forthcoming. That is precisely what Doomsday did. Who was he? No clue. Why was he attacking Superman? No clue. Where was he from? No clue. Was he even a "he"? No clue. Why on earth was he doing what he was doing? No clue, and here's the sticking point: it was never revealed in the context of that story. Nothing. We knew no more about Doomsday, outside of his visual appearance, from Superman #75 and the entire DOS story than we did in MOS #17. THAT is bad writing. These are the basics of storytelling, and the writers of DOS didn't follow them.

The distinction has been a little lost. There's a difference between a focus on first appearances of existing characters (Punisher, Wolverine, and more recently,at the time, Cable and Venom), and first appearances of brand new characters that nobody had ever seen before. No one should misunderstand: I am absolutely, under no circumstances, suggesting that people weren't after first appearances. They were. It was a frenzy. But they were after first appearances of already established characters, not new characters that no one had ever heard of before. A perfect example of that would be New Mutants #87. Nobody "speculated" on it, very few bought multiple copies of it, and it took roughly 5-6 months for the character to really start to catch on. For reference, I bought five copies at $1.25 from my LCS about the time that New Mutants #94 was out, and as we have seen, ads from the period didn't really make note of it. So, "this is the first (full) appearance of Doomsday!!!" would have been met with "um...who?" at the time that MOS #18 came out. And if the conversation went further, like "this is the character who might kill Superman!" the response might have been "um...they're going to kill Superman? Right. It's a total stunt, there's no way they're killing Superman." And the focus was on the Death of Superman, rather than the first appearance of Doomsday. As far as Doomsday, or ANY new character was concerned, there was a decidedly more "let's wait and see what they do with this one" attitude then. Not that there wasn't *some* focus paid...but there wasn't much, and it certainly wasn't anything like it is today. That's why I challenge those who say "oh, yeah, we totally knew about the first (full) appearance of Doomsday, that was what everyone wanted!" As part of the DOS story? Absolutely. As "the first appearance of Doomsday (full or not)"...? Not quite so much.

It is wonderful that, out of the monstrous excesses of the early 90's, that several niche elements have emerged (2nd/3rd/later printing variants, DCU variants, certain ashcans, variants) that are legitimately a challenge to track down. Now, does anybody need any Shadowman #19 10 packs...?

Oh yeah! Removing the goggles of childhood nostalgia and replacing them with viewers of an adult who's innocence is long gone, this statement rings true. The Poseidon Adventure... I'm going to go ahead and disagree with both of these points. As far as from a "literary point of view" I don't think the writers were going for anything as deep as, say, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. I think they wanted to do something BIG with Superman, and the idea snowballed organically into The Death of Superman. There is, of course, a spectrum, from great literary works (Watchmen) to pablum that's barely readable (say, Superboy comics from the late 50's.) You don't necessarily need to be going for anything deep...but they weren't even going for logical, reasonable, or rational, either. Why Louise Simonson was involved, other than the paycheck, I don't know. But the story isn't just not good...it's terrible. It makes no sense, it isn't logically consistent, there's no continuity, there's no motive for any of the events that unfolded...it's not much better than a college freshman English Lit creative writing project. You don't need to be Alan Moore's Swamp Thing...but Rob Liefeld's Youngblood isn't a goal to shoot for, either. That doesn't make much sense. They started the story in MOS #18, with one-page teasers in the previous 4 weeks' books. Then, 5-6 weeks later, it was over. I was referring only to DOS, not anything else, especially not his "return" three months after FFAF. I don't know where the "better part of a year" factors into it, could you clarify? I'm not sure how doing a "one off comic" shoots Superman with a Kryptonite bullet would have "simply moved books", or anywhere near as well. The stunt was extremely successful, no doubt about it, and there had to be *some* level of buildup. Oh, no, that would be a grave, grave mistake to assume that something that does well must therefore not be bad. It is, in fact, a bad story, badly plotted, badly paced, badly written, and badly executed. It succeeded in spite of it's poor execution, not because of it. There are endless examples of creative efforts that did well, despite the fact that they are terrible. After all, Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith (I had to look that one up, had no idea what it was called, that's how little of an impact it made on me) stand as prime examples of that. There's nothing wrong with having enjoyed it as a kid/young teen. My review wasn't meant to be a condemnation of those who enjoyed it at a young age. However, there does come a time when we should recognize that bad art is bad art, no matter how great we thought it was at the time. I don't know that you'll find many that will hold up DOS as an example of the best the artform had to offer at the time (Sandman, Sin City, Bone), or even good (Hellblazer, Unity), or even mediocre. But, you WILL find people who have reverence for the nostalgia of the event, and there's nothing wrong with that. It was certainly the biggest event to ever happen in comics, certainly before, and probably since. If you disagree, by all means, please discuss specific plot points/elements, examples of quality plotting/pacing, or other elements of the DOS story that you believe make it "not drekky." I'm certainly, as always, willing to hear well-reasoned opposing arguments.

You all knew that, huh...? Despite the fact that first "full" appearance wasn't really a hobby-wide concept until the advent of CGC...? "Cameo", "full", these were essentially embryonic concepts in the early 90's, and not consistently applied, especially to new characters. The Bronze age wasn't even called the Bronze age on a regular basis until the mid-90's, and the crash stalled these types of conversations for several years. Serious question: how did your LCS order accordingly for MOS #18, when no one had any clue who or what Doomsday was at the time orders for MOS #18 was due (around the time MOS #16 was on the shelves)? After all...in the early 90's, speculation wasn't about new characters. In the early 90's, the conventional hobby speculation wisdom was still "hot artist", "hot character." People didn't focus just on first appearances, but on appearances, period, and it focused on established hits, like Punisher, Wolverine, even Batman appearances in other titles enjoyed a bit of speculation love. There wasn't any way to know who or what Doomsday was, or why anyone would care about him/her/it. Someday, someone will actually have some proof for all these fish tales and kid-colored-glasses memories... It would probably appear in Wizard. I can check my Previews as well. Feel free to post if you find it first.

Normally, these sort of things don't even phase me. $600 for a book like this is just silly. But Sam Kieth sketch? Signed and numbered? Limited to 10? Signed by Neil? I sit here, and actually consider it, seriously. Sigh.

The problem with House of Secrets is that they don't care about restored books and/or damaged books (missing coupons, missing pages, etc.) I bought a Hulk #181 with CT (unusually, in the brown area in the bottom right front cover), and an Avengers #1 that eventually graded 5.5...with a 5th wrap married. They had a Justice League of America #2, and when I pointed out to the (asst?) manager, Eric, that there was an ad page missing, he shrugged, didn't care, and put it right back in the case, at the same price. They just don't care, because they don't have to. And because they don't care, they have become a dumping ground for problem books. So, if you go there, be very, very, VERY careful, and check everything thoroughly.

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.) Bloodshot #2 - 67,600 Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies. Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies. Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies. That gives us direct numbers for MOS as: MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine. Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales? No. Because New Mutants was cancelled, they weren't required to print a SOO for issues #96-100, and DC had given up on SOOs by then. That said, the numbers aren't probably much different, except issue #100, than the issues represented by the SOO in NM #99 (which covers issues #84-95.)

Must...not...hit....buy........must........not.......

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.) Bloodshot #2 - 67,600 Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies. Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies. Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies. That gives us direct numbers for MOS as: MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine. Are there circulation numbers for these books? Something that gives us an idea of the newsstand sales? No. Because New Mutants was cancelled, they weren't required to print a SOO for issues #96-100, and DC had given up on SOOs by then.

Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.) Bloodshot #2 - 67,600 Bloodshot #1 had about 850,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 186,500, so each Capital City copy represents 4.56 copies. Bloodshot #2 had about 310,000 copies. SCCB shows the Capital City portion as 67,600, so each Capital City copy represents 4.59 copies. Looks safe to say that each Capital City point in 1992 was around 4.575 copies. That gives us direct numbers for MOS as: MOS #17 - 18,700 = 85,500 copies MOS #18 - 26,350 = 120,500 copies MOS #19 - 96,700 = 440,000 copies MOS #20 - 84,250 = 385,000 copies It's rough, but it will serve. Just as long as no one uses these as precise numbers, and understands that they are broad estimates, we should be fine.

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done. Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271. Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18. The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern. Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not. There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98 Are you sure about that...? Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office. Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did). http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number. Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18. (I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.) I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years. I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible! That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this: New Mutants #98 - 55,200 MOS #17 - 18,700 MOS #18 - 26,350 #19 -96,700 #20 - 84,250 For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150. That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year. As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything. By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why. And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show. MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17. So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98. That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those. While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years. So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save. Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.) Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each. My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers. We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts. So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.) Good stuff! That SCCB data is definitely helpful! MOS #17 - 18,700 MOS #18 - 26,350 #19 -96,700 #20 - 84,250 What does your SCCB show for Bloodshot #1 and Bloodshot #2? We can get a sense of the direct edition numbers for MOS using those known values. Bloodshot #1 - 186,500 (what an astonishing number, all things considered.) Bloodshot #2 - 67,600

What is exceptionally cool about this picture is knowing that my copy is in that picture, somewhere.

OK, here's the list of factual information you're looking for. Consider it "recorded somewhere." The 3,275 copy print run is accurate...confirmed and documented by Peter Laird himself. No claims to the contrary by any other person not directly associated with TMNT #1 (i.e., anyone other than Kevin or Peter) should be considered valid. I would consider the printer who received and processed the order to be a valid source, directly associated with TMNT #1. Yes, it doesn't make much sense for Eastman/Laird to have maintained a fiction for nearly 32 years. They had no idea what would happen, none at all. They were just doing an homage to Ronin, and left it at that. The number of copies printed was known long before Turtles became a household name and, in fact, before issue #1 was worth anything at all. The same thing happened, on a smaller scale, with Cerebus a few years before. Sim printed 2,000 copies of #1, and then proceeded to offer them for sale. When it became a huge hit in the early 80's, at the very beginning of the B&W explosion, that number had already been documented.

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done. Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271. Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18. The pattern of rise and fall in prices before and after the movie doesn't depend on the number of copies... it's about the roller-coaster pattern. Broadly speaking, I would agree with that, except that the amount of surviving copies, especially of ultra high grade examples, has a leveling effect on the roller coaster that easy access to ultra high grade copies, as is the case with MOS #18, does not. There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98 Are you sure about that...? Now I wish I had a copy of SCCB at my office. Man of Steel #18 didn't make the 1992 Top Yearly Sales list... (but #19 and #20 did). http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1992.html Since #300 is X-O Manowar #14, and since the estimated print run was 225,000... MOS #18 direct sales would be below that number. Your estimate for NM #98 was 250,000, it's pretty clear that NM #98 was printed in a higher number than MOS #18. (I don't know if the newsstand sales and return rates would change that overall.) I guess my assumption is that MOS #18 survived in higher numbers since it was a "Death of Superman" key from the start, while NM #98 was nothing special for several years. I'd be very surprised if MOS #18 has fewer in existence today, but it's definitely possible! That Standard Catalog...it's such an invaluable resource. In any event, the numbers look like this: New Mutants #98 - 55,200 MOS #17 - 18,700 MOS #18 - 26,350 #19 -96,700 #20 - 84,250 For the year 1990 (into which New Mutants #98 would fall) Diamond doesn't have a top 300 list. However, doing a cursory peruse through the SCCB, New Mutants #98 was *probably* in the #75-125 range, maybe a little higher, but certainly no lower than #150. That year was dominated, of course, by McFarlane's Spiderman, easily taking the top 7 spots. Next up would be Batman, Batman:LOTDK, and Uncanny X-Men, which jostled the next 36 spots throughout the year. Shortly after would be Amazing Spiderman, and Wolverine would be in the mix there, too. After that, there's really not anything that definitively beats NM #98 for the year. As most of us know, this was the era that was dominated by the hot artist, and at that point, Liefeld was on fire. No one cared about Deadpool...true...but it was still a Liefeld book, and orders for #98 and #99 barely let up from the smash hit X-Tinction Agenda issues. So, even if the book by itself wasn't anything particularly special, it still would have sold well and been maintained in the era of bagging and boarding everything. By contrast, MOS #18, coming out just about two years later, was not heavily ordered, and had no lead up to it to give it any boost. Prior to the Death of Superman (DOS), it was a critically low selling title, as the numbers above show. We know that MOS #18 didn't even break the Diamond top 300 for 1992, and when looking at the Cap City numbers, we see why. And orders for MOS #18 were less than half the orders for New Mutants #98. As I think we've discussed in this thread before, the jump in numbers for the DOS and Funeral storylines were unbelievable; it's certainly possible that they were the greatest per-issue sales leaps, both in terms of percentages, and certainly in terms of real numbers, in the entire history of comics. But...MOS #18 wasn't a benefactor of that, as the Cap City orders show. MOS #18 was a full 5-6 weeks before Superman #75 came out, almost enough time (perhaps enough time, at the time) for retailers to up their orders for future issues, after that book came out. And while MOS #18 did enjoy a nearly 30% increase in Cap City orders over #17, #19 saw a 267% increase over #18, and an astonishing 417% increase over #17. So, at least initially, unless Cap City had something strange going on, at least the initial print numbers show MOS #18 being roughly half of New Mutants #98. That brings us to the next consideration: extant numbers, and how to arrive at those. While it is true that MOS #18 was part of the DOS storyline, initially, it wasn't considered anything particularly special in and of itself. Yes, it was always known as "the first appearance of Doomsday", but it took a decided back seat to Superman #75, as did the rest of the issues. In fact, only the surprise issue of JLA #69 had any real aftermarket boost in value immediately following the events of the storyline. And, after Superman "came back to life" less than 6 months later, in one of the most successful "ha ha! We got you, suckas!" moments in comics history, the storyline eventually faded into obscurity, and nobody cared any more, except for #75, which has always maintained "some" value over the last 23+ years. So, we start with a print run that is, roughly, 50% less than New Mutants #98. We know that New Mutants #98 wasn't any great shakes, but it came out at a time when everyone and their mother was buying 10+ copies of New Mutants to save. Then, with MOS #18, we see that same sort of "initial" popularity, and even of the same sort: not the focus, but certainly ancillary to the events of the day (Liefeld/Cable on New Mutants, DOS.) Finally, we see both issues drift into obscurity, and end up in the cheapo boxes, for approximately two decades each. My analysis is that, due to these circumstances, there would be roughly, within 10% either way, the same survival percentage of copies, in the same types of grades, due to the similarity of the circumstances surrounding each issue. What really limits #18, and why it has surprisingly maintained value, is that it started out, by all appearances, at about half the numbers for New Mutants #98, at least extrapolating from the Cap City numbers. We don't know newsstand numbers, but there had been, by late 1992, not an inconsiderable falloff in newsstand sales overall over late 1990. Those may not have much bearing; newsstand copies for both books, especially in ultra high grade, appear to be quite rare, relative to their Direct counterparts. So, while we see 8,000 or so copies of New Mutants #98 on the census, with certainly more to come, I don't believe we'll see even half that number of MOS #18, because they just don't appear to have been made in the same quantities, even if both books appear on the market with the same relative frequency today. And Doomsday would have to approach Deadpool-level popularity to flush those sorts of numbers out, if they exist. Deadpool is, for the time being, the most popular Marvel creation of the 1990's, and perhaps since Hulk #181. (Harley would be the DC equivalent, and she's the most popular DC character created since the 50's, by all appearances.)

Oh yeah! Removing the goggles of childhood nostalgia and replacing them with viewers of an adult who's innocence is long gone, this statement rings true. Sad, but true. If you enjoyed something tremendously as a child, be very wary of revisiting it as an adult. Save your happy memories intact! Quick story about that: when I was 8 or 9 or so (1980-1981), I saw TPA on a Saturday afternoon movie on TV. It was THE GREATEST MOVIE EVER OMGWTFBBQGARBBB!!! It was so awesome, I couldn't believe how awesome it was. But...this was the early 80's, so you didn't have easy access to old movies like you do now. So, of course, I didn't have it to watch, and it likely wasn't released on video anyways. Fast forward to 1995 or so...I'm in college, and I'm at Costco, and lo and behold, THERE IT IS! TPA on VHS! I had to have it, no two ways about it. I eagerly bought it, watched it... ...and was thoroughly disappointed by how absolutely drekky it was. I mean, really, it's one of the lousiest movies ever made, with plot holes you can drive a truck through. As a means of shattering silly childhood illusions, I'm very glad I watched it...but, at the same time, it was a huge letdown to know that what I enjoyed as a kid was so bloody awful. Why Gene Hackman, fresh off his Oscar win for the French Connection, consented to make this movie, I'll never know.

This is your one and only post, in almost ten years of being a member!

PS. The whole Death of Superman storyline was pretty bad, from a literary standpoint. We have an antagonist who just "shows up", with no back story whatsoever, and in the course of 6 issues, manages to take down the most powerful superhero in the DCU (yes, let's not talk about Spectre, et al.) without any explanation at all. There was no setup, there were no plot elements introduced earlier, there was nothing at all that made us care one whit about "Doomsday", or why he/she/it would or should have A. the motive, B. the opportunity, C. the ability to take down Supes. It was a stunt, a gimmick, and boy did it sell books. But as a literary work, it is awful. It really makes you appreciate the pacing and plotting of storylines like Dark Phoenix, which groundwork was laid beginning in 1976...and didn't culminate until 1980. I imagine, to young teens, it was the thrill of a lifetime. But, just like watching The Poseidon Adventure (1972) as an adult, it wasn't ever very good to begin with.

Brief increase in sale prices for current copies in the market, significant increase in the number submitted to CGC, decrease in market prices after the movie due to the increased census and the movie being done. Should follow a similar pattern to Hulk #271. Hulk #271, from a surviving copy standpoint, is a completely different beast than MOS #18. There are definitely more copies of MOS #18 in existence than NM #98 Are you sure about that...?

Exactly. Estimated print runs and distribution are not mutually exclusive. I don't know why some people keep implying that they are. I'm not sure what you're referring to by "estimated print runs." Distribution ratios have nothing to do with print runs of incentive variants, other than the aforementioned "floor" being established. Since we know that distribution numbers don't have much to do with print runs, where do you come up with your estimate of 500-800 copies for this variant? Do you have a source for those numbers? it would be nice to get some hard evidence for the actual print runs of these incentive variants, that isn't based on the idea that the distribution numbers have much to do with the print runs.

Yes, there is a broad correlation, but it is very broad, and based on factors that are, essentially, unknown to the retail community at large. The only connection the print run of the variant has to do with the print run of the regular version is that it establishes a floor for the minimum number of copies a publisher has to print to fulfill orders. Your post here contains a common misunderstanding: that Marvel doesn't know how many shops ordered 25 copies of the regular book, and thus doesn't know how many of the incentive they actually have to print, and just print based on the numbers for the regular. That's not true. At the time of FOC (Final Order Cutoff) Diamond, and thus Marvel, knows not only how many regular books to print, but also how many stores qualified for the incentive, so they know precisely how many copies they are required to print and distribute of that, too. Again: the "1:X" are distribution ratios, not print run ratios. That is a misunderstanding that has now, through repetition, been turned into a "fact." Otherwise, there is no connection, and variants, especially at Marvel, are not "printed to order." Those decisions are made in publication/circulation, and they are not released by Marvel in any official manner (as opposed to, say, convention variants or DF variants, which usually have such print information released for marketing purposes.) Such reasoning becomes clear: if Marvel is trying to get retailers to order a certain number of books to qualify for a variant, they are going to want to create the impression that such a variant is, in fact, worth having, and "limited", at least to an extent. This is why there has always been an aura of mystery surrounding incentive variants: there's an incentive to have it so. Marvel and Diamond have regularly, over the years, offered unsold incentives, most usually at cut-rate prices, to retailers. This is further evidence of the fact that such variants are not "printed to order." If they were, they would all have been distributed at the time, and overage for spoiling doesn't account for all of these extra copies. As has been seen, the "1:X" number has been shown to not have much relevance when it comes to market rarity, desirability, or access. Some 1:25 books have become excessively difficult to find, while some 1:100 books are exceptionally easy.