RockMyAmadeus

That's not what I said. I said "The appearance has to be in sequential art (that is, TELLS A STORY), that is not intended to be "officially printed" in another publication. " It looks like you stopped at "officially printed" and didn't read the following three words, which radically changes the meaning of what I said. And no, I did not just "make this fact up." (Don't read that as "snarky"; it's not.) This has been established comics history going back decades. No one has ever considered non-story appearances (that is, ADS) to be "first appearances". or Action Comics #12 and the others would be worth more than Detective Comics #27. Nope I quoted you in full, hence the quotation marks. Then why did you leave those three words off when you repeated it? You DO understand that those three words left off completely changed the meaning of what I said, right? Regardless, you CAN find such a definition of "real" first appearances, right here, on this very board, multiple times. Definitions are based on common usage; the dictionary didn't descend from on high, fully formed and complete. How do you think definitions come to be? The definition of a first appearance: in a story, NOT including a "preview"...is one that has been accepted as standard since the beginning of comic fandom, otherwise...Action #12 would be worth more than Detective Comics #27. When I say "worth more", I don't mean (just) money. I mean "value to the collector community, all things considered." I can list countless examples. Malibu Sun #13 isn't the first appearance of Spawn. Spawn #1 is the first appearance of Spawn. In fact, these things are so silly, it has now been "discovered" that it is "actually" Rust #1 that is the "real" first appearance. Which is it? You know what IS the first appearance of the New Teen Titans? DC Comics Presents #26. Yup, it's a preview. And yup, it's an original story. You know what is NOT the first appearance of the Walking Dead? Capes #1, which only prints a few of the first pages from Walking Dead #1. I still don't see how a preview that's intended to be in another publication or not matters. If Rick Grimes appears in Capes 1 then that's the first Rick Grimes no matter what it sells for. You really need to forget the monetary value of the thing and trust your eyes. I don't care about the monetary value. That has nothing to do with the conversation. It's NOT the "first appearance" of Rick Grimes; it's a preview of Walking Dead #1, which IS the first appearance of Rick Grimes. Yes. And that doesn't change it. Both conditions have to be present. The appearance must BOTH be sequential art (that is, a STORY) AND it must not be a preview (as in, literally pages from a forthcoming comic.) If BOTH of those conditions isn't met, then it's not a first appearance. Why am I "forced" to answer yes? There's no force about it; the preview pages of Walking Dead are quite clearly sequential art. However...they are not ORIGINAL STORY PAGES. They are simply pages taken from Walking Dead #1 and printed elsewhere. Ok. And...? Those people who want Malibu Sun 13 INVARIABLY want Spawn #1. I think it might even be safe to say that there's not a single person who has interest in Malibu Sun #13 who also doesn't have an interest in Spawn #1. It's ALSO safe to say that the reverse is NOT true...that is, not everybody who wants a Spawn #1 also wants a Malibu Sun #13. The reason isn't because it "predates Spawn #1." The reason is because it has an ad for Spawn. It's not rare. It's rarER than Spawn #1. But it's not rare. Spawn's first appearance is Spawn #1. That is not going to change, no matter how you or a select few may wish it to. An ad, a preview, is not a first appearance. Who said anything about value "determining facts"....? You are correct. I didn't create it. I simply recognize that it was what the hobby has determined, many decades ago. Otherwise, Action Comics #12 would be worth more (I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT MONETARY VALUE) than Detective Comics #27. It would be more highly desired, more highly prized, and yes, AS A RESULT, it would be worth more money....but that would come as a result of demand, which is always the case. The demand comes, THEN the money comes, not the other way around. But it's not. Why? Because it's just an ad. It may be the "first printed appearance of the Batman"....but it's not his REAL first appearance, and that distinction will always and forever be Detective Comics #27. Listen, as long as you keep putting up the fiction that ads, previews, and the like are "real" first appearances, I'm going to keep responding "no." Nothing personal...but you are trying to redefine the hobby, and with many bubbleheads who don't know any better, there must be a counterpoint to this.

There is only one version of this issue, correct? Seller states newsstand... Well no, there are two versions Regular 30 cent variant Smarty pants. Those are BOTH newsstand versions.

It's not possible to compare values without acknowledging vast differences in supply whenever it occurs. Action #12 and Detective #27 have survived at similar quantities... so there is no concern about a supply difference. Detective #27 is incredibly more valuable than Action #12 because DC #27 is the first appearance of Batman, while Action #12 is an earlier advertisement for Batman. Malibu Sun #13 vs. Spawn #1 is a difference of about a million copies. If there were ALSO a million copies of Malibu Sun #13, it would be worth a small fraction of the value of Spawn #1. The fact that Malibu Sun #13 sells for more than Spawn #1 isn't a reflection of Malibu Sun #13 being the first appearance of Spawn. It's a reflection that the first appearance of Spawn in Spawn #1 is extremely easy to locate, while a very early advertisement for Spawn is much more difficult to locate. If ads aren't counted as first appearances 75 years later (Superman, Batman)... then they never will be. That doesn't mean ads can't be more valuable... but that's because of supply and demand... not because an ad is a first appearance. \ This too.

That's not what I said. I said "The appearance has to be in sequential art (that is, TELLS A STORY), that is not intended to be "officially printed" in another publication. " It looks like you stopped at "officially printed" and didn't read the following three words, which radically changes the meaning of what I said. And no, I did not just "make this fact up." (Don't read that as "snarky"; it's not.) This has been established comics history going back decades. No one has ever considered non-story appearances (that is, ADS) to be "first appearances". or Action Comics #12 and the others would be worth more than Detective Comics #27. Nope I quoted you in full, hence the quotation marks. Then why did you leave those three words off when you repeated it? You DO understand that those three words left off completely changed the meaning of what I said, right? Regardless, you CAN find such a definition of "real" first appearances, right here, on this very board, multiple times. Definitions are based on common usage; the dictionary didn't descend from on high, fully formed and complete. How do you think definitions come to be? The definition of a first appearance: in a story, NOT including a "preview"...is one that has been accepted as standard since the beginning of comic fandom, otherwise...Action #12 would be worth more than Detective Comics #27. When I say "worth more", I don't mean (just) money. I mean "value to the collector community, all things considered." I can list countless examples. Malibu Sun #13 isn't the first appearance of Spawn. Spawn #1 is the first appearance of Spawn. In fact, these things are so silly, it has now been "discovered" that it is "actually" Rust #1 that is the "real" first appearance. Which is it? You know what IS the first appearance of the New Teen Titans? DC Comics Presents #26. Yup, it's a preview. And yup, it's an original story. You know what is NOT the first appearance of the Walking Dead? Capes #1, which only prints a few of the first pages from Walking Dead #1.

It's a great book, for sure, but the "$1,995 or Best Offer" may be intimidating to potential buyers who would otherwise be in the market for an unsigned CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 around $800 (the 90 day average). JayJay Jackson and Jim Shooter are not an extra $1,195 worth of CGC witnessed signatures. A CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 Signature Series was $305 in January 2015, and a CGC 9.8 Harbinger #1 unsigned sold most recently prior for $309. Were the signatures worth negative $4? The 2014 average for CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sales was $97, and the signature series CGC 9.6 Harbinger #1 sold for $103 that year. Were the signatures worth $6? That seems too low... but $50 signatures maybe? $100? Probably not $1,195. An Ebay shopper would probably think it unlikely that a seller would go for an offer of $850 or even $1,200 (if we use the recent $1,130 sale plus $70 for the signatures), when the asking price is $2K. Pffft. The $305 sale was Layton only. And the last Universal sale was still $1100+. AND.... The last sale of one of my OTHER copies (after it apparently traded hands a couple more times) was $1550. And you cannot compare the sales of 9.8s from early this year, when unsigned copies were selling for $300...now, they're selling for an average of $800. No, the comparisons are off, because Shooter doesn't sign much (I'll grant that JJ's sig, as pretty as it is, doesn't add much value), and there are only EIGHT SS books (with one being the aforementioned Layton only sig.) Sigs add value. How much value? Well, in the other copy's case, about $700. So...my asking price isn't *too" far off the mark, and certainly not as inflated as you're making it sound here. You've left quite a bit of very pertinent information out of the equation.

And yet, no one wants to make an offer for my double signed 9.8 Harby #1.

That's not what I said. I said "The appearance has to be in sequential art (that is, TELLS A STORY), that is not intended to be "officially printed" in another publication. " It looks like you stopped at "officially printed" and didn't read the following three words, which radically changes the meaning of what I said. And no, I did not just "make this fact up." (Don't read that as "snarky"; it's not.) This has been established comics history going back decades. No one has ever considered non-story appearances (that is, ADS) to be "first appearances". or Action Comics #12 and the others would be worth more than Detective Comics #27. Put it this way.... If the first page of Detective Comics #27 had been printed as a preview ad on the last page of Action Comics #11...would that be Batman's "first appearance"? By your definition, yes. However...if such an ad existed, it would have only been a preview. The actual page would have been intended for Detective Comics #27, the OFFICIAL publication of that page. Just like Walking Dead #1 and Capes #1. However....if Action Comics #11 contained a Batman story...even just a page....of sequential art that wasn't then subsequently published elsewhere (outside of reprints), then THAT would have been the first appearance of Batman, rightfully so, and recognized by the hobby for decades. Gotta be in an original story, told sequentially. That's how first appearances work, whether that original story is in a comic, a newsletter, a phone book, or a roll of toilet paper.

That's not what I said. I said "The appearance has to be in sequential art (that is, TELLS A STORY), that is not intended to be "officially printed" in another publication. " It looks like you stopped at "officially printed" and didn't read the following three words, which radically changes the meaning of what I said. And no, I did not just "make this fact up." (Don't read that as "snarky"; it's not.) This has been established comics history going back decades. No one has ever considered non-story appearances (that is, ADS) to be "first appearances". or Action Comics #12 and the others would be worth more than Detective Comics #27.

There is only one version of this issue, correct? Seller states newsstand... Correct. Direct market marking didn't occur until Feb, 1977 cover dates.

I'm ona roll!

But everyone has a voice here so anything that gets promoted can be challenged. Do that elsewhere and you'll be banned, threatened, and insulted. You're banned, threatened, and insulted here, too... I just like to think of it as higher quality banning, threatening, and insulting...

Except there's no where he could've gotten that information. He has no proof. I normally order 2 copies of Scooby Do TU for my store, I ordered 12 of #12. I'm certainly not the only person who upped their order on it. I'm also thinking it's going to be in the 10-12,000 range. At least. I'll ask him where he got that figure of 7,000 from, , in a couple days, next time I stop by his shop. He also said that he thought the book was worthless and he was annoyed that he had 5 people walk in, he had never seen before, asking if he had any copies. He has 0 copies for sale, FTR. I've known the guy for a couple years, he's a pretty straight forward guy and he does not chase after ,or push, hot books.That said, he has no motive to tell me that he was "sure" that the print run was 7000. Maybe he knows somebody at DC or Diamond and got some inside intelligence...or maybe not.hell if I know. In any event, even if the print run was as low as 7000, that is not inordinately rare and the book has *absolutely no* tie in to DC continuity, nor the Suicide Squad movie related scenery. Some dooshbag sellers are listing it as " the 1st App. Gotham Girls"....which is an outright fabrication.Just saying, it is the sort of gimmicky hot book that speculators hear has a super low print run and morally bankrupt eBay flippers use any means they can dream of to get multiples of cover price for a book that came out 2 weeks ago. Once CGC gets flooded with subs of this book,I think the price point on slabbed 9.8's will be around $25 to $50. You just described BA 12. -J. Not at all. BA 12 sells for big duckets b/c it is the 1st app of HQ....it being the 1st app. of HQ, it inherently has a lot to do with the Suicide Squad movie. Scooby Doo Adv. 12 is just a short ordered book with a HQ appearance. Is it worth a $100 in a CGC 9.8 slab? yeah, I think so. I actualy wouldn't be surprised to see it go past the $100 mark in 9.8 b/c of it being short ordered and HQ completionists want the book. I actually just bought a copy via ebay for $12, shipped.Looks like a 9.8 , and if not, I'll press it. I've got some a Mad Love and 2 HQ 1-shots (1st DC app in continuity) and 2 Detective 570's coming back from CGC in a week or so. I'm going to list them all on ebay at around FMV BIN's.......and put up the Scooby Adv 12 at $49.99 w/free shipping. Betcha the raw 9.8 Scooby 12 sells at that price off of trickle down interest. Ahem. Ducats He was talking about female ducks. You know...duckets. *duckettes. Yes, but that would alter CAK's original spelling, which would render the joke no good. You trade the corrected spelling to make the bad joke...it's a compromise...

Did I read the UPC code right? That is cover 24 of issue 1. That is CRAZY! Theoretically, it's supposed to be the 2nd variant of the 4th printing.... ....but UPCs have fallen short in the last 10 years.

Wait, previews can be first appearances? If the story is original, yes. If not, no. The nature of a "preview" almost universally means that it's material intended to be printed elsewhere.

It is a story. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6433136 So it's a preview! Nice. No. OK so is it an unpublished story? I'm just not sure why this newsletter qualifies as a first appearance while others do not. I though newsletters can't be first appearances or does the artist/writer have to state that it is within his own newsletter for it to count? Does the newsletter have to be promoted a certain way for it to count as a first? I have read a lot of posts over the years where people claim that collecting newsletter, previews, pamphlets and other non-comic format material is frivolous because they shouldn't be considered first appearances and yet no one is complaining about this company newsletter as a first. I wonder why. I believe this is a little different because NEC acknowledges and promotes the first appearance to be in the newsletter instead of the comic. Not that it should matter to the reader. But according to them, it is We are splitting hairs here, but I think the big difference is this wasn't marketing material for a comic, i.e. buy the Tick comic, here's a taste. The Tick was a feature that regularly appeared in the newsletter and only later got his own series, and this volume marks the beginning of the Tick story. Well if the publisher of the book acknowledges it to be a 1st appearance, what are we arguing? The publisher doesn't need to acknowledge anything with regards to what is a first appearance. It's nice that they do, but that opens up cans of worms that aren't necessary to be opened. Simple prima facie evidence, here: Is the first published depiction/appearance of the character in sequential art, yes/no? And, is that sequential art an original, stand-alone story (rather than preview material intended to be published elsewhere, usually in the very near future), yes/no? If yes to both, it's the "real first appearance." If no to either, it's not. If Bane's first appearance ever had been on a box of Captain Crunch cereal, that wouldn't have been his first appearance. If, however, on the BACK of the box, there's sequential art (that is, a STORY) depicting Bane, then that would, indeed, be his first appearance. That's why the first appearance of Harley Quinn isn't BA Adventures #12. It's her first comic book appearance.

Wait I thought first appearances had to occur within a story? It is a story. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6433136 So it's a preview! Nice. No. OK so is it an unpublished story? No. It is clearly published, as NEC Newsletter #14. Because it's an original story, written and drawn for NEC Newsletter #14. According to whom? No. That would be an odd criterion. And Ben Edlund didn't publish NEC Newsletter #14...NEC did. No. Not correct. The appearance has to be in sequential art (that is, TELLS A STORY), that is not intended to be "officially printed" in another publication. It doesn't matter if it was printed in a comic book, a newsletter, Previews, the back of a Pop-Tarts box, or a roll of toilet paper. It simply has to be sequential art that isn't intended to be printed somewhere else. If Previews contained an ORIGINAL STORY that had a first appearance that wasn't intended for, nor printed in, another publication as PART of a "preview", then that would be an official first appearance. That's why the first appearance of "The Walking Dead" is NOT Capes #1 or Agents #6, both of which only contain PREVIEW PAGES of The Walking Dead #1, but why NEC Newsletter #14 IS the first appearance of the Tick. If it was just pinups of the Tick, character studies, or somesuch, you'd have a valid point. But it's not. You're still trying to claim that ANY published depiction of a character, no matter where it appears, no matter HOW it appears, should be considered the "first appearance", which is contrary to the entire history of comics fandom. Well, clearly it's because anyone who says it's a story has a warehouse full and is trying to manipulate the market. Orrrr.... The FORMAT of the appearance doesn't matter, provided it's in sequential art form. Look at the thread that was linked. This is NOT a "preview" of a story that appeared, or even was intended to appear, elsewhere. It is an original story, written and drawn for this newsletter. It is not an "unpublished story", it was published in NEC Newsletter #14. NEC was and is a PUBLISHER of comic books (not that one needs to be a publisher, but still.)

There's too much meat in this thread.

Thought that was cool. Numbers.

Totally worth it.

Except there's no where he could've gotten that information. He has no proof. I normally order 2 copies of Scooby Do TU for my store, I ordered 12 of #12. I'm certainly not the only person who upped their order on it. I'm also thinking it's going to be in the 10-12,000 range. At least. I'll ask him where he got that figure of 7,000 from, , in a couple days, next time I stop by his shop. He also said that he thought the book was worthless and he was annoyed that he had 5 people walk in, he had never seen before, asking if he had any copies. He has 0 copies for sale, FTR. I've known the guy for a couple years, he's a pretty straight forward guy and he does not chase after ,or push, hot books.That said, he has no motive to tell me that he was "sure" that the print run was 7000. Maybe he knows somebody at DC or Diamond and got some inside intelligence...or maybe not.hell if I know. In any event, even if the print run was as low as 7000, that is not inordinately rare and the book has *absolutely no* tie in to DC continuity, nor the Suicide Squad movie related scenery. Some dooshbag sellers are listing it as " the 1st App. Gotham Girls"....which is an outright fabrication.Just saying, it is the sort of gimmicky hot book that speculators hear has a super low print run and morally bankrupt eBay flippers use any means they can dream of to get multiples of cover price for a book that came out 2 weeks ago. Once CGC gets flooded with subs of this book,I think the price point on slabbed 9.8's will be around $25 to $50. You just described BA 12. -J. Not at all. BA 12 sells for big duckets b/c it is the 1st app of HQ....it being the 1st app. of HQ, it inherently has a lot to do with the Suicide Squad movie. Scooby Doo Adv. 12 is just a short ordered book with a HQ appearance. Is it worth a $100 in a CGC 9.8 slab? yeah, I think so. I actualy wouldn't be surprised to see it go past the $100 mark in 9.8 b/c of it being short ordered and HQ completionists want the book. I actually just bought a copy via ebay for $12, shipped.Looks like a 9.8 , and if not, I'll press it. I've got some a Mad Love and 2 HQ 1-shots (1st DC app in continuity) and 2 Detective 570's coming back from CGC in a week or so. I'm going to list them all on ebay at around FMV BIN's.......and put up the Scooby Adv 12 at $49.99 w/free shipping. Betcha the raw 9.8 Scooby 12 sells at that price off of trickle down interest. Ahem. Ducats He was talking about female ducks. You know...duckets.

There is so much cool Valiant stories and characters and marketing goodies that can be posted in here over time. Even the Doctor Silk bookmark you only received by purchasing a hobby magazine as an insert. That's whata mean. I needs an edumacation in the Valiant arts. Like this pre-post- unity stuff I've heard about. I really just don't know anything about the company. There is an entire thread devoted to non-comic Valiant ephemera on Valiantman's website (started, I believe, by the current CEO of Valiant, before he owned the rights to the characters). Yes, you've mentioned these things several times. I'm only asking to put it here. Is there some kind of issue you're having with this blasphemy? Yes, let's take Greg's 10+ year in the making repository of all things Valiant and cram it in this one thread! Now we're talking! Well, there are a (literal) million posts on ValiantFans.com, so it's probably useful to do a summary of some kind. Only a million....?

Wait I thought first appearances had to occur within a story? It is a story. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6433136 So it's a preview! Nice. No.

Very nice! That misprint is very cool from an early 1990s perspective, since the premium books (gold, platinum) from publishers often had no cover price. It's like that one is a "purposeful" premium with that missing cover price box. Any estimates on the newsstand ratios for this book? 1:20? 1:50? Thanks! From what I understand, Marvel newsstand ratios in 1992 were somewhere around 10-15% of the total print run. But as newsstand issues are returnable, some of those would have been destroyed. I'd imagine Image ratios were something similar at the time, but I'm not too sure. One thing I do know for sure, it's much tougher to find newsstand editions in high grade than their direct counterparts. Print runs for newsstand copies were substantially higher than 10-15% of the Direct run in 1992. The newsstand wasn't dead yet. Newsstand Image books, however, are indeed very hard to find, especially in very high grade.

Oh man. What a beauty. That is a masterpiece. Just gorgeous.

Frankly, I'm amazed at the number of views per posts these threads get. There's a regular 100:1 ratio going on!