RockMyAmadeus

I don't think the comics collecting demographics and philosophy they held changed dramatically from 1990 to 1991. You would be incorrect. 1991 was a watershed year, and things changed quite dramatically during that year, and after, setting the stage for 1993. I didn't say everyone ignored first appearances. I said they weren't BRAND NEW first appearance crazy, like they are now. Cable wasn't an out-of-the-gate hit, either. It was really X-Tinction Agenda, coming about 8-9 months after #87, that brought him to everyone's attention. X-Tinction Agenda was a monstrous hit, the crossover of the year, and put the mutants firmly back on track, after wandering in the desert for 2-3 years. As I and others have said, Liefeld was the real popularity early on, and #86 was worth more than #87, at least for about 8-9 months or so. Trust me on this...Deadpool wasn't even a blip on anyone's radar when the book came out. Nobody cared. It was all about Liefeld, and after that, Cable. Deadpool would be ignored until his own mini, by Joe Mad, in 1993. New Mutants, by the time #98 came out, was at par with X-Factor. It was beating the others, but only during and after X-Tinction Agenda. Before then, it was about par with them, too.

Now, FIRST issues, on the other hand...1990 was a very good year for first issues, and speculation happened on just about every Marvel #1 that came out (Ghost Rider, New Warriors, Guardians of the Galaxy, Spiderman, etc.) But first issue speculation had gone on since the 70's.

I must have been ahead of the curve then. I look at mainstream super hero comics being pretty much 100% speculation driven by then. It may have taken a year for Wizard to come out, but that was a response to the market. How much was ASM #299 and 300 selling for then. How about New Mutants #87 even? 100% speculation driven...? In 1992 and 1993, this was close to being true, but not 1990. ASM #298 and #299 were selling for about $30 and $15, respectively, when NM #98 came out. They were also the hottest books in the entire North American continent at the time, because everyone was McFarlane crazy. New Mutants #87 was about a $5 book when #98 came out. It wasn't until *after* #100 came out, and just before X-Force #1, that things went crazy. :shrug: I bought in the SF Bay Area at the time, and standard was, back issues went into the bins at 25c over cover price, to cover the cost of the bag and board (which wasn't anywhere near 25c, but whatevs.) I didn't see the minimum 50% markup. Everyone pretty much priced according to the OPG Updates. There was *some* markup going on for particularly hot titles (like, say, X-Men #270), but overall, you could (and I did), buy recent back issues for just a quarter over cover. No one was "first appearance crazy", especially with new, unproven characters. American Entertainment was selling X-Men #266 for $3 6 months after it came out, and Gambit was pretty popular right out of the gate.

Which is exactly why I don't find it's print run numbers to be all that relevant to the print run numbers of comics from the early 1960's. Late 60's. Early 60's was a bit different. And sell-through in the late 60's was still very high. The avg. paid circ (that is, sold copies) was 636k for Supemran in 1968, or more than 3 times the sell-through on New Mutants #98. So, it's a pretty apt comparison. Oh, you get no dispute from me on the fact that everyone carefully preserved their books from this time period. But, WSJ material, it was not, and people weren't (yet) buying books by the crate, for the most part. 1990 is about as far removed from 2014 as it is from 1968. And I don't mean just in terms of time. But who were the two creators everyone was speculating on on New Mutants #98?

Huge...? What is huge? For comparison, Spiderman, FF, Superman, Batman...all had print runs in the 500-700s in the late 60's. Probably about 30% of them, as that was the standard return rate for newsstand books at the time. Yeah, Spiderman and FF also had huge print runs. What's a "normal" print run? What's the average Marvel comic (not first issue, not variant) sell today? 30k or around there, right? What's the absolute top selling comic selling? 100k or around there. So I'd say 30k is an average print run (even though it's higher than nearly every creator owned comic on the planet) and 100k is where you're at a high print run. Double it for a huge print run. So, a below average print run for a 1991 book is "huge"? Sure, comparing print runs to today will make anything...even Avengers West Coast...look huge. Yes, it was a Direct market book, too, which is why only 30% of the run was returned, rather than 60% or 70%, like in the days when there was no Direct market. It definitely DID appear at 7-11s. 1990 wasn't a "speculation heavy" era. Things were ramping up, but it was nothing like 1992-1993. Who were the two most speculated on creators? Liefeld was certainly chugging along, but I don't know who the other one was. And first appearance? Nobody cared that it was a first appearance when it came out. In fact, the print run for #98 is about 15% less than #97. Everyone was X-Tinction Agenda crazy. Deadpool? Domino? Gideon? Not so much. Generic first appearances weren't all glommed onto, like in the 70's and again now. Marvel responded by flooding the market with first appearances in the 70's, and we have books like Devil Dinosaur, and characters like Woodgood.

Huge...? What is huge? For comparison, Spiderman, FF, Superman, Batman...all had print runs in the 500-700s in the late 60's. Probably about 30% of them, as that was the standard return rate for newsstand books at the time.

Guess Procol Harum could qualify too , although I'm no expert in prog rock. I do like many of these bands, great talent no matter the genre is always worth listening to, and it is great to be inspired by other enthusiasts. I grew up with a lot of computers and have always loved sci-fi movies (Bladerunner ), so that did influence my taste in music. Mind In A Box is from Austria, the music video is fan made using scenes from the 2004 movie Immortel (ad vitam). Most of these bands sell quite few albums, so if they ever make music videos the quality may only be slightly better than Trans X in 1982 I am Danish and still live in Denmark. Without me paying $100+ for each FedEx delivery, I'm sure they would be bankrupt by now Just ran across this... It must be nice living in a nation where the streets are paved with gold. I mean, that's how they pay for everything, right....?

The incredible beak from a colossal squid! (yes, yes, it's the mesonychoteuthis hamiltoni) (Go to 2:17:00) (I hope Man, I could REALLY use those points! - And the fame ) As I told my sons, "Before sailing the Seven Seas as a mighty pirate, I clearly remember that beak when I was diving for pearls near the southern tip of New Zealand. Luckily I was saved by my two best friends, two hungry adult sperm whales, but I never will forget that beak! When I got back on the ship, I made the painting below to remember the day" I thought for sure someone would think it was a deleted scene from Prometheus. Heh. I got it right before seeing the answer.

I was a big Iron Maiden and Queensryche fan back in the early to mid 80s I'm more into the "M" bands... Metallica, Megadeath Milli Vanilli.

That stupid woman needed to stop SCREAMING. I HATE it when women scream like that.

But seriously, that highlights my point. $3, $5, $7, $10....that's nothing compared to how few of these books are out there. All it would take is just some overall demand, and the books disappear. Look, why is Spidey #50 worth $XXX in VG? The book has easily 50-100k copies of its original run still extant. It's not rare. AT ALL. It is extremely common. And that's why, until the 1990's, these books were....yes, you guessed it: $5-$7 in "Near Mint." Pick up an OPG from 1985, and the prices will kill you. So why are these books worth so much? Demand outstrips supply. If...IF...(note that word, people)...demand like this trickles down to DP as a character, those books will be in the same boat...they'll just be in a lot higher cumulative grade. If not...hey, at least you'll know you have something that's a lot less common than almost all of the stuff printed from the 70's-1995.

Never surrender. My file LCS blows through runs of Deadpool at higher prices that what you mentioned. At shows, we get $8-$10 for the common issues and it runs up from there. This past weekend I sold a slabbed 9.0 of #54 (Punisher x-over) for $60, a #4 for $20, and several others in the $8 - $10 range. Granted, we also were getting $20 for Marvel Now #1, $8 for #2, $6 for #3-10, and $5 for everything up (except for $12 on the #27). Even the last couple issues that are still on the stands at LCSs were selling for $5 apiece. You guys are way overpriced already....

It's not a challenge of my grading ability. Although I did take 3rd in Matt Nelson's onsite, 20 book/20 minute grading challenge some years back. I'm not the one listing raw books as 9.8s on Ebay and profiting from suckers who can't grade. Fourth place, baby! JUST out of the top 3.

I didn't miss your point. You're using the term "broke out" in a way that is not common. This thread is about the value of individual books, not (necessarily) the popularity of characters. "Breaking out" means that a book has become more popular and desired than the books around it, and that desire has been recognized. Spiderman #252, for example, is "broken out" from #240-#260. You're not understanding: the issue isn't whether or not Deadpool as a character is profitable for Marvel to publish him. The issue is the specific value of his first appearance. And, in that sense...that is, the value of his first appearance...Deadpool was forgotten for nearly 20 years. I didn't say Deadpool, like Fatman, the Human Flying Saucer, drifted off into unpublished obscurity. It's simply that the demand for his first appearance simply didn't exist for the vast majority of his 24 years. That's not true, it just wasn't off-the-charts nuts (like it is in the current rampant speculation phase) and didn't outweigh the large supply during the dark days and slow recovery phase. Many broken out books were also "worthless" during this time period, as I'm sure you know. It didn't exist. Demand for the book was next to nothing. When runs of New Mutants are sold, with nothing noted about #98, for $30-$40, that's no demand. When runs of #91-100 (like JSComics did) are sold, with no special mention of #98, that's "no demand." When a book becomes "unbroken out", that's when the demand has disappeared. A 9.8 sold for $40 in 2003. 9.6s could be bought for $25 or less (meaning, the threshold of "not worth slabbing") up until 2008. The record low price was $10. That's "no demand." "So negligible as to not even be worth noting."

The "why not make every issue #1" point has been made for 35 years. It took a while, but Marvel finally managed to do just that.

This is list pretty much DC what about Marvel? By all means, feel free to add your suggestions!

I didn't miss your point. You're using the term "broke out" in a way that is not common. This thread is about the value of individual books, not (necessarily) the popularity of characters. "Breaking out" means that a book has become more popular and desired than the books around it, and that desire has been recognized. Spiderman #252, for example, is "broken out" from #240-#260. You're not understanding: the issue isn't whether or not Deadpool as a character is profitable for Marvel to publish him. The issue is the specific value of his first appearance. And, in that sense...that is, the value of his first appearance...Deadpool was forgotten for nearly 20 years. I didn't say Deadpool, like Fatman, the Human Flying Saucer, drifted off into unpublished obscurity. It's simply that the demand for his first appearance simply didn't exist for the vast majority of his 24 years.

Just out of curiosity, would you guarantee that numerical grade if someone bought it and sent it straight into CGC without a press? I guarantee the grade of every book I sell. I think I've had two returns in over 12 years and 10,000 sales. And those were many years ago. And even you know there are still many variables in this statement, "if someone bought it and sent it straight into CGC without a press?" I wasn't trying to bait you, I was sincerely curious. I will put this out there. A wager that benefits charity. I will buy a raw book of my choosing from Divad's ebay listings, now or in the near future. The book can be sent to a neutral third party who will relay it to CGC, fast-tracked at my expense, without further pressing or any modification from its current state upon receipt. If the book comes back in the same grade, I will sell the book and donate any profits to charity. I will also donate $100 to the charity of Divad's choosing. If the book does not come back the same grade, the book will still be sold with profits going to charity. Additionally, Divad must put the following statement in his signature line: "I cannot consistently guarantee the grades of raw books that I sell on Ebay. In fact, I should probably get them graded myself rather than selling hope to others." in 20pt, bolded font, for 1 year. Deal?? I'm 1:1 on public board wagers. I'm due to lose. The terms of the wager aren't equitable. There's nothing in it for Dunbar, and much to lose. If you're going to make this wager, you'll have to offer an incentive that is equitable to the disincentive of the sig statement. And...not that I'm defending Dunbar, I'm not....but everyone reading this knows, or should know, that the difference between a 9.8 and 9.6 is frequently non-existent. If I grade a book a 9.8, and it comes back 9.6, and vice versa, it doesn't prove anything. If I grade a book a 9.8 and it comes back 9.2, now we've got something.

You're mistaken. This might surprise you, but not everyone posts solely out of self-interest. So, a straight up answer, do you have any of the books for sale you are suggesting people should be buying up? Nope. 1. I already said that I'm not "sitting" on these books. 2. Why would I sell them if they haven't even BEGUN to achieve what I think is their potential? Selling my ASM "Vol 2" #1-29? Why? They sell for nothing. Deadpool #13-60? Why? They sell for nothing. Barely cover price. But, I'll be more than happy to buy any that anyone is selling. Deadpool (1997) issues #13-60 sell for nothing? They may be cover price in California, but I can't find any issue selling for less than $7 around here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dead-Pool-34-by-Marvel-Comics-/151424784748?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item23419ed96c http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARVEL-COMICS-DEADPOOL-issue-56-/261562427900?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3ce655e9fc http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-19-Modern-Age-Marvel-Comic-Book-1998-VF-/181517596377?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2a434ab6d9 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-21-Modern-Age-Marvel-Comic-Book-1998-NM-/171448452317?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item27eb1fc4dd http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-47-Cruel-Summer-Part-2-of-3-Ananastasia-Appearance-/371135598370?hash=item566967cf22 Just random copies that sold for around cover price or less. Yes, shipping is involved for the buyer, but the seller isn't making that, and books can be, and are, combined. That means someone wanting to sell them on eBay, and expecting any sort of money for their time, would have to buy them for 50 cents each, or less. Meanwhile, back in 1991, a dealer could pay $5-$10-$15 for a New Mutants #88, and sell it for $25-$30...in 1991 dollars. In late 1992/early 1993, a dealer could pay $50-$75 for a Harbinger #1 and sell it for $125-$150, or $50 for a Rai #4 and sell it for $75-$80. And, putting things in perspective, $7 is pretty much "nothing", in this era of $4-$6 cover prices. The difference between $2-$3 and $7 isn't much, in the grand scheme, unless you're selling many multiple copies. So basically you can't find any Deadpool (1997) issues selling for less than $7 in Canada. You wrote a lot of words to essentially say, "I agree with Plantman's post, but $7 isn't much compared to current cover prices." I have no idea. I don't live in Canada, and haven't been in Canada since 1992. I've never looked for any comic in Canada, much less Deadpool. I "wrote a lot of words" so that my point would be clearly understood, with supporting data to back it up. That is the point of discussion, is it not? There's a tone of orneriness around here lately. I wonder why.

You're mistaken. This might surprise you, but not everyone posts solely out of self-interest. So, a straight up answer, do you have any of the books for sale you are suggesting people should be buying up? Nope. 1. I already said that I'm not "sitting" on these books. 2. Why would I sell them if they haven't even BEGUN to achieve what I think is their potential? Selling my ASM "Vol 2" #1-29? Why? They sell for nothing. Deadpool #13-60? Why? They sell for nothing. Barely cover price. But, I'll be more than happy to buy any that anyone is selling. Deadpool (1997) issues #13-60 sell for nothing? They may be cover price in California, but I can't find any issue selling for less than $7 around here. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dead-Pool-34-by-Marvel-Comics-/151424784748?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item23419ed96c http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARVEL-COMICS-DEADPOOL-issue-56-/261562427900?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3ce655e9fc http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-19-Modern-Age-Marvel-Comic-Book-1998-VF-/181517596377?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2a434ab6d9 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-21-Modern-Age-Marvel-Comic-Book-1998-NM-/171448452317?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item27eb1fc4dd http://www.ebay.com/itm/Deadpool-47-Cruel-Summer-Part-2-of-3-Ananastasia-Appearance-/371135598370?hash=item566967cf22 Just random copies that sold for around cover price or less. Yes, shipping is involved for the buyer, but the seller isn't making that, and books can be, and are, combined. That means someone wanting to sell them on eBay, and expecting any sort of money for their time, would have to buy them for 50 cents each, or less. Meanwhile, back in 1991, a dealer could pay $5-$10-$15 for a New Mutants #88, and sell it for $25-$30...in 1991 dollars. In late 1992/early 1993, a dealer could pay $50-$75 for a Harbinger #1 and sell it for $125-$150, or $50 for a Rai #4 and sell it for $75-$80. And, putting things in perspective, $7 is pretty much "nothing", in this era of $4-$6 cover prices. The difference between $2-$3 and $7 isn't much, in the grand scheme, unless you're selling many multiple copies.

Did Silver Sable getting a solo book in 1992 mean anything? Did Deathlok getting a solo book in 1991 AND 1999 mean anything? Did Cable getting a solo book in 1993 mean anything? Did Spiderwoman getting a solo book in 2000 mean anything? Did Lobo having endless minis throughout the 90's mean anything? We are talking about the value and demand of the first appearance, not whether the character was published or not. Lots and lots of characters are published, whose first appearances aren't worth much. Deadpool was one of them, from the time the "heat" faded after his first mini, until about 2009.

I doubt that "the market" will make a distinction between New Mutants #98 and later "appearances."

People said the exact same thing about New Mutants #98 and X-Force #2...among others...for a decade+. We shall see. Huh? I don't think anyone talked about low print runs during the X-Force 2 days? And New Mutants 98 was hot by the end of the year it came out. The whole Liefeld run was hot at that point, but you know that. As for memorable runs, during the "X-Force 2 days" you still had the hot artist syndrome going on with Jim Lee on X-Men, and McFarlane on ASM/Spider-Man. It didn't take 10 + years for Deadpool to break out in the Marvel Universe. Um. Deadpool was a blip in 1993, and then was forgotten until 2008/2009. He not only did not break out, he was completely forgotten for nearly 20 years. And New Mutants #98 came out in December of 1990, and it *was* hot...but only because it was part of the Liefeld run. It had nothing to do with Deadpool. I don't have any idea what you mean by "X-Force 2 days", as it relates to the discussion. Sorry.

People said the exact same thing about New Mutants #98 and X-Force #2...among others...for a decade+. We shall see. Huh? I don't think anyone talked about low print runs during the X-Force 2 days? Maybe this will clarify: People were saying the exact same thing....that these "books won't be sought after"...about New Mutants #98 and X-Force #2.

And I disagree that there aren't any "memorable runs" from the era. Batman #608-619 Authority #1-16 Planetary #1-26 Apocalypse: The Twelve Cataclsym/No Man's Land (one of the best long term Bat sagas ever) Astro City #1-22 Flash #164-200 Loeb/McGuinness Superman (#154-180ish.) Preacher League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Superman: Red Son Y: The Last Man Fables 30 Days of Night Formerly Known As The Justice League Identity Crisis Countdown to Infinite Crisis (and the four titles, all outstanding) And that's just off the top of my head. The era is filled with outstanding runs....they just haven't all gotten the press they should because the industry was in such doldrums.