RockMyAmadeus

I'm RICH!!!!

That Genie's pubes are showing. That guy needs a trim.

According to "verifiable data", mankind has no idea what is inside the sun, or any star. Not only has no one ever been inside one, no one can ever be, given the current state of the physical universe. Nothing and no one can survive the interior temperatures of the sun. Every element known to man is instantly reduced to its atomic foundation, and scattered. But wait...how do I know that? Without verifiable data proving this, it's all just speculation...right? We know this, because we can observe the physical universe, and how it works, and we can draw reasonable conclusions as to the content and makeup of the interior of the sun. We don't observe nuclear fusion, which is the engine that drives the sun, directly (mainly because it occurs on the atomic level, which we cannot see, and it occurs far faster than the human eye could ever follow)...rather, we observe the results of that reaction, and we draw reasonable conclusions based on those observations. It is not reasonable to conclude that the interior of the sun is composed of chocolate milk. We can never know what actually composes the interior of the sun by direct, experiential, verifiable data. But we can reasonably conclude that it is not made of chocolate milk. Likewise...we understand, by the mechanics of how the census itself works, for all the reasons already stated, that it does not represent an accurate, or even approximate, picture of what really exists. We can also understand, by experience, that beginning around 1965 and continuing to the present day, with some brief interludes, that the majority of comic books produced...unlike their predecessors...were saved, rather than destroyed, for various reasons (lack of paper drives, institution of the Comics Code, pop culture attachment, speculation {the financial kind} based on the value of predecessors, etc.), and that, by 1989, this was nearly universal. We can also understand, given the nature of the book itself, that it was distributed to fans from the outset, that it has never been valueless or undesired, that fans of Sandman are much more likely to hold on to their collections than the average collector, that this book is far, far, far less likely to have been casually destroyed over the years. Using all of these things, it is reasonable (indeed, preferable) to conclude that the vast majority of the copies printed still exist That you wish, in opposition to reason, to decide that this is BASELESS speculation (speculation it is...no one disagrees, or HAS disagreed with you on this) is not reasonable, and never has been. That you conclude that only a "mere 100 or so" copies have survived, and you cite the lack of sales data and census data to "prove" this is what is baseless. It is without foundation, and the fact that you keep referring to the reasonable as "mere speculation", just as valid, if not less so, than yours, is not, itself, reasonable. The census does not represent an accurate picture of what exists, for anything; yet you use it as the foundation for your argument. Sales data does not represent an accurate picture of what exists; yet you use that as the foundation for your argument. YOU are the one is saying "well, I can't see it, so it must not exist!"...not the other way around, as you claim of literally everyone else. All speculation is not created equally. You must provide a rational basis for your conclusions. This, you have failed to do, while trying to present everyone who has tried to reason with you as "making assumptions", and "making it personal", "your post count doesn't give weight to your argument", mischaracterizations and hyperbole, etc. It is nothing personal. You are simply wrong, and will not (cannot...?) accept it.

Compared to what? Are you aware of the Vengeance of Vampirella #1 Royal Blues? They were an afterthought, printed by Harris at the same time as the regular second printings. Thus began the Vampirella Royal Blue program. They were "limited to 100" (though, of course, that number is probably a little higher.) They were printed in 1994. As of this date, only 4 are on the census. I have owned two copies. Approximately 6 other copies have been sold on eBay in the last 15 years. One copy has been sold on Heritage, in a group lot. It is THE key modern Vampirella book. It is easily the most desired, most valuable, and most sought after book from Harris, outside, perhaps, of #113 of the original run. To Vampirella fans....granted, there are few, but they are hardcore...it is the book to own. They are, obviously, much rarer than Sandman #8. But is there any reason to assume that all the copies printed no longer exist? After all, it was printed only 5 years after Sandman #8, a full 20 years ago...

You make many claims which you never substantiate, despite your continued claim that you substantiate everything, so I'll go at these one at a time, to try and get you to focus on backing up specific claims... Such as?

Did you not see the photos of Wizard that I posted, or not care because it wasn't GPA? The cover date for Sandman 8 is Aug 89. By Apr 92 it was a $100 comic in Wizard. That's only about 2.5 years. It's a much faster progression of values than Amazing Spider-man 300, New Mutants 98, or Walking Dead 1 demonstrated. I don't have the 90 or 91 OPG to check, and that was the oldest Wizard I had. Multiple owners of the book have come forward to say they have it raw and see no reason to pay someone $20 to put it in a plastic case for them. The book was originally marketed toward adult collectors. The "mature readers" label, art style, and themes pretty much kept it out of the dirty hands of children who were wrestling each other for the one-panel Cable preview in New Mutants 86. I think this comic suffers for having a variant that is not immediately visible from the outside, and not even immediately identifiable to the uninitiated (as opposed to a Mark Jewelers insert or pages-out-of-order error, both of which are pretty obvious). There are probably several copies in peoples' collections that have not been identified. ("I know there's a valuable variant, but which is it? The one with the article by that female executive? Oh. Karen Berger or Jeanette Kahn? Hmm. Oh well, I probably don't have the variant, I just got it at my local comic shop in California.") The Sandman series ended in 1996, and back issue demand began cooling fairly quickly thereafter. The entire series has been in continuous reprints, with at least two different waves of hardcovers, an Absolute set, and an Annotated set. There is no reason whatsoever to buy back issues if you only want to read the stories. But since CGC didn't begin until 2000, the peak of Sandman interest had already passed. Thus, GPA only shows the recent resurgence in price, not the whole picture. I see this is still going strong. It was a desired book lonnnnnnng before Wizard. It showed up in the Updates in 1990, less than a year after it was made. It has been a desired book since the beginning. *I have never owned one*

I had 20 9.8s. I now have none. Oh well. I can't complain, I paid 90 cents each for them. I still have two raws left, though.

The silver logo is FAR superior to the red one. I suspect, since metallic ink logos were still fairly "new" at that point, whatever they had going didn't work, and they were pressed for time. You can see a vast, vast difference in quality and paper stock for the Marvel second prints of the era. Ghost Rider #5 is a real pain to find in ultra high grade, with sloppy, sloppy printing on the cover, smeary, splotchy, the works. Death's Head II #1 is fingerprint heaven. New Mutants #87 is notorious for finger prints and spine tics. Same with New Warriors #1. Same with X-Factor #60, New Mutants #95, and X-Men #270. Any sort of pressure on that metallic ink on the spine, and it just cracked right off. Ghost Rider #15 worked VERY well, but that was a different cover stock. X-Force #1 is well done, but still had a lot of bindery flecking. X-Men #282 suffers from the same wonky overlaps as the first print, plus fingerprints. I think the nicest of the bunch, of the entire program, was New Mutants #100 2nd and 3rd. Those are fairly easy to get 9.8s, they are mostly white, so they don't fingerprint if you look at them funny, and they are really high quality.

Hey! Quit spoiling my surprises! I was gonna make a MINT selling flipped around Silver logos!

I know about the silver logo cover... Anybody try and sneak one past you?

I mean no offense but, it appears that this is a part of the problem, I've noticed that your arguments often contain logical fallacies. To say this is irrelevant is wrong. Each of these dealers is well respected and both have a reputation for moving books rather than "showing" books. Both dealers have a solid appreciation of the market and would price a book according to their appreciation of the market. You may not place much value in their assessment. However, their expert opinions are relevant and saying otherwise is wrong. It is a logical fallacy, it's a form of the "moving the goalposts" or "shifting the bar" fallacy. The fact that two reputable dealers agree does add some support for the assertion that the Cerebus is worth more. You may not give it much weight it but it is relevant. Honestly these buzz words that you toss around don't really have much meaning, and further, they are not representative of anything I have actually said. It's great that you respect dealer opinions. I do as well. However I also have enough knowledge and insight to form my own opinions. And no I do not see any actual evidence beyond "dealer opinion", that a cerebus 1 9.2 has a higher FMV than a hulk 181 9.2. But if you want to dredge that non-point up again I would respectfully ask that you take it back over the the bronze section. With regards to the sandman 8 book in question, it's nice to see some people at least allowing for the possibility that there "may" be as few as 100 surviving copies. There were indeed 600 copies "printed" but they were not all distributed. And it was a very long time before they were given any kind of significant value over the regular issue. You can see the progression on the GPA chart. I have never once said "there are only 100 copies". I have only said that I believe this to be a reasonable statement based on X, Y, and Z facts. I have no doubt there are raw copies lingering around here and there in collections. But again, I certainly would not say there are hundreds upon hundreds. The book is just too valuable, and too many people know the book is too valuable for there not to be more copies on the census and available at any given time for sale on the open market for this to be true IMO. "IMO" being the operative part of that sentence. (thumbs u -J.

I have one. Bought it in 1999 for $85 (IIRC). It's been in the same box for the last 15 years, along with all my Sandman issues and barring some unforeseen disaster it'll remain there for the rest of my time on this earth. Now, try to imagine how many more people like me (Sandman fans/collectors who don't need/want to sell their personal collection) might be out there and you may realize why it's entirely possible (nay, probable!) that there are many more copies existing than the 100 you give as a "ceiling" for this book. Like RMA said, 600 distributed copies in 1989 of a well-known book with a hardcore fanbase, cannot logically translate to less than 100 existing in 2014. It "might" (since no one can say for certain in cases like this) but it really doesn't make sense to believe so. And thus we have...a reasonable conclusion.

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u -J. Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u except I have done no such thing, and surely not on the order of that one post of yours. -J. Oh boy.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology." Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages. How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run? 3. Two slabbed, and one raw. That's it. There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours. I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be ou t there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market. -J. Heritage specializes in vintage comics. They don't give a hoot about taking moderns in on consignment. They actually turn them down, unless it's a tag along with vintage books. Anecdotal. Next! Oh okay. So I guess all those dozens and dozens of copies of the killing joke, NM 98, sandman 1, walking dead, the nam, Longshot , punisher limited, 1, punisher regular 1, etc etc etc on there are all just figments of my imagination ? And you really think if I called and said "hey heritage I have one of only 3 copies of a sandman 8 editorial in a 9.8 to auction will u take it?" U think that answer would be "no"? Come on. -J. Do you think the comics people at Heritage even *know* what a "Sandman 8 editorial" IS...? Or would they have to research it?

Well, let's see where this goes....

There's no way you'd be "glad to listen". You didn't listen to what anyone said in the Cerebus thread and you haven't listened to what people here have said. As I posted earlier, if it's not on the census or reported on GPA it doesn't exist in your world. Nobody ever said there are hundreds available. There's not. Just because it's not for sale, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're the one that capped the number of existing copies at 100. In a matter of a few hours, we accounted for nearly 50% of that. The collecting world is far bigger than these boards and GPA. Don't say I didn't warn you, Jay. I'd quit now, if I were you. That hole you're digging can only go down.

Man, did that guy get run out of town. Deservedly so, too! Gaiman probably has one. I would be SHOCKED if Tori Amos doesn't have one. Sadfan's creator probably has one.

I have one in my possession, but it doesn't belong to me.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology." Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages. How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run? 3. Two slabbed, and one raw. That's it. How many regular Sandman #8s has Heritage auctioned off in the last 15 years? 4. Three slabbed, and one raw. That's it. Looks like this book is almost as rare as the editorial variant Clearly, everyone threw them out. Glad I kept mine. I'm RICH!

That is not a reasonable conclusion to make, for all the reasons stated before, and others not stated yet. All "samples" are not created equal. But you, as ever, already know that.

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...? 2. That's it. I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence. You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow. I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity Do you mean "sample"? "Sample size" is how BIG the samples are. That's nice that you gave these examples, but they are insufficient. I've already explained why GPA, the census, and eBay are insufficient, and the same basic arguments apply to Heritage, with one more: Heritage is NOT known for being heavily involved in Copper Age books. Their forte, of course, is Silver and Gold. No, because they only represent a tiny portion of the big picture. You cannot point to what is NOT, and use that to make a claim as to what IS. Reality doesn't work that way. "See? SEE?? There haven't been hardly ANY sales! That MUST mean these copies don't exist anymore!" ...while completely ignoring the much broader realities of the comic collecting world, which have already been explained. One more time: knowing what people with decades of experience in this hobby...like myself...know, it is not within the realm of reason to conclude that just because a certain book doesn't appear frequently on the marketplace, that therefore the vast majority of the copies of that book no longer exist. Are you ever going to take responsibility for the "The market wasn't even aware that this book existed until 2005-2006" error? You are attempting to say that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because you can only see a part of her brown dress.

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...? 2. That's it. I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence. You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow.

And no, I am not suggesting "it must exist, how can it not?" That is a misrepresentation of my position. I am suggesting that "based on what is known about the collecting habits of comics buyers, the collecting habits of Sandman collectors, the typical survival rate of special edition comic books, and the general survival rate of comics books from the late 80's/early 90's, it is a reasonable conclusion to state that most of the copies are still extant." Not a fact. A reasonable conclusion. There IS a difference. It is entirely outside of the realm of reason...based on the facts just stated...that 82%+ of the print run of a very special book, known AND sought after from nearly the time it was printed in 1989 has evaporated into non-existence. You want to talk about condition issues, sure, not a problem. No argument. The vast majority of these books went to fans of the book, who then probably read it, and the result is that 9.6 or better copies are now extremely rare.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology."