RockMyAmadeus

So, if you say it, the facts don't matter. If I say it, the facts are all that matter. Just stop, Dunbar.

This is a DONAHUE interview from 1979.... ....SEVENTEEN YEARS before Fox News existed.

See the added comments. If you don't understand that OTHER PEOPLE have the ability to EDIT previous comments when they QUOTE them, how can anyone take your other comments seriously?

So then you do agree that from 1984-up newsstand copies ARE rarer than their direct market counterparts? I hope that just about anyone can see that the above is pure conjecture. RMA hasn't cited a single fact which supports these conclusions. In fact, he even deleted his "supposition" disclaimer in the original post. http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=44&Number=7522932&Searchpage=1&Main=330658&Words=supposition+RockMyAmadeus&topic=0&Search=true#Post7522932 You don't even know which post you're referring to, do you...? This is the second time in a week that you have, without referring to the original post, taken someone's EDITED quote as the UNEDITED version. Why are you doing this?

So then you do agree that from 1984-up newsstand copies ARE rarer than their direct market counterparts?

C'mon David, you're really not helping here The thread was actually interesting before RMA comes on and says this thread is a hoot. Then he spouts alleged facts as though he was actually there. His cites don't support his conclusions, and everyone is duped (because he talks the most). Do you really think that last post is any more than self-aggrandizing conjecture? I don't have the time or the spirit to disagree with him. He can win all the time (it seems he needs to). The charge I find most amazing...considering I physically gagged myself from almost every conversation on these boards for two years...is the charge that I need to "win" a discussion or all I do is "argue." Is Divad simply oblivious to this...? :shrug: Ah well, I don't have the spirit to be insulted without cause, so back to emoticons and memes.

One more post on the subject...and this is supposition...educated supposition, but supposition nonetheless. Here's a handy chart about how I view the availability of ultra high grade (9.6+) newsstands vs. Direct copies by groups of years: 1976-1978: 100-1,000 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy. 1979-1980: 3-5 newsstand copies to every 1 Direct copy. 1981-1983: 1 Direct copy to every 1 newsstand. 1984-1987: 2-3 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand. 1988-1990: 4-6 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand. 1991-1993: 5-10 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand. 1994-1997: 10-20 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand. 1998-2002: 40-50 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand. 2003-up: 100-1,000 Direct copies to every 1 newsstand.

What I'm saying is...for aesthetic reasons, for nostalgic reasons, the amount of people who, like me, *prefer* Direct market copies is more (maybe slightly, maybe substantially) than the amount of people who prefer newsstand copies, and this has thus far always been true. This balances and cancels out the "premium" for ultra high grade newsstand copies. Not for individual copies, no. But averaged out, yes. A newsstand run of New Mutants (both bagofleas and tnerb should be watching their behinds in the next few months. ) in 9.8 would be extremely difficult...because there aren't large pools of raw copies to draw from, like there are Direct copies. And these are 1990 books, when the newsstand was well on its way to obscurity. The time frame being discussed is critical to understanding the differences. And if and when the tide changes, and there DOES become a substantial premium for newsstand copies...they will come out of the woodwork, because they DO exist. If people start paying $500 for a Spidey #308 newsstand 9.8, you better believe those copies will suddenly appear. They don't now because there's not a premium for them. Make that premium happen, and they will...just like all the rest of the formerly scarce Bronze/Copper/Modern books before them...all of a sudden appear on the market, if not on the census. Like I said elsewhere...CGC not distinguishing between newsstand and Direct market copies in the census was a grave, grave error...which a handful of people could have told them (and maybe did tell them) in 1999, but conventional wisdom was always that it didn't matter (and, in 1999, it most certainly did not. Only a tiny, tiny handful of people were even aware of the issue. Most of the ultra scarce newsstand copies were still in the future when CGC opened its doors.) So, I don't blame them *too* much. Still, it was a shortsighted error.

Now. Why the disparity between what shows up for sale, and the claim that the books are just as common, if not moreso, in the early years of the direct market? From 1976-1977, that's easy: the only copies that EXIST are newsstand copies. There was no distinction, so of course, the only copies that exist are comics with UPCs on them. From 1977-1979, only MARVEL (and DC's special Whitmans) printed books with special Direct Market marking, and these were a TEST. They weren't printed for every title, and every issue, UNTIL June of 1979 cover date. So, of course, nearly every high grade book by default from 1977-1979 is going to be, again, newsstand, because the direct market versions are UNCOMMON. In fact, ultra high grade "fat diamonds" from Feb 77 to Apr 79 are extremely rare, and their regular newsstand counterparts are excessively common. From 1979 (when the DM went company-wide at Marvel) and 1980 (when the DM went company-wide at DC), you're STILL going to see the vast majority of copies, high grade or otherwise, as NEWSSTAND copies, because of the aforementioned smallness of the direct market (remember...only 30% of Marvel's sales from 1980.) In 1981, we start to see the Direct Market flex its newfound muscles, and NOW we start to see the balance start to shift....but it happened slowly, over the next 5-6 years. In 1980, the DM's Marvel share was 30%. By 1988, it was 70%. It took time. Now...what about 1981-1984? Here's where the Direct Market affects the AFTER market that we see now. Since Direct Market books were NOT returnable, and the amount of stores exploded nationwide from 7-800 hundred in 1978 to 3,000 by 1981, stores began to stockpile back issues in a way that no one had before. And that's generally what we see now: back stock that slowly trickles its way, sometimes by as much as 3rd, 4th, 5th generation owners, into the market. But what happened to the newsstand copies? The newsstand remained as it was: books were returnable, and were RETURNED...but the ones sold were sold to individuals, and many of those individuals kept them as part of collections...not all, obviously, but not none, either. So, if you're going to find "multiple copies in high grade", you're going to find "untouched DM store stock" much more often than large masses of newsstand copies. This does not mean that there aren't many high grade newsstand copies "out there" from 1981-1984. It just means that you're not going to find POCKETS of them, like you will DM copies. The newsstands copies are generally...this is a GENERALIZATION...mostly in collector hands, and often ORIGINAL collector hands, and therefore aren't as *available* on the open market, but that doesn't mean that there aren't masses of them that exist from that era. Now....I began collecting in earnest in 1990. I buy multiples of the Uncanny X-Men, especially the issues from 95-143. These have been randomly assembled over the past 24 years. Here is my current stock: X-Men #142: 7 newsstand copies, 10 DM copies, mostly high grade. X-Men #139: 10 newsstand copies, 2 DM copies. X-Men #140: 11 newsstand copies, 4 DM copies, 1 pence copy. The Miller DDs I don't have enough stock of, except perhaps #182-184, to make it statistically meaningful, but I do have at least 3-4 9.8 newsstand copies of each. And, of course, since newsstand copies were essentially the only copies printed (early DM tests aside), then obviously from 1976-1979/80, they are going to be the only examples that are available, in any grade, high or not. Like I said...1/2 as many, from the period of 1976-1984, averaged out.

Thanks Maloney, I appreciate it. But, as you can see, there are people around here who can't just disagree, they have to disagree by insult, and I just don't want to be a part of that. I take comics research very seriously. I treat it very seriously. One of my favorite people in this entire industry is Mark Evanier, because he's a comics historian, and one of the best in the field. I take the study of the industry very seriously. Nothing I post is simply my own speculation unless I label as such. I don't sit here and just make stuff up because it sounds good. So, when people come along and arrogantly dismiss what I've said, insult me in the process, and can't be bothered to post data of their own... ...well, it's pretty damn obnoxious, if you ask me. Disagree. Discuss. Cite others. But sit there and just demean and dismiss, and contribute nothing of your own...? No thanks. And none of you should tolerate it, either.

Do you have a source for these numbers? Or is this just your speculation on the newsstand/direct market distrubution? Yes, I have a source for these numbers....several, actually: 1. "Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book" by Paul Lopes, particularly chapter 4, which discusses, among other things, the arrival of the Direct Market. In particular, page 100, which discusses Marvel finding out that the Direct Market was, in 1980, approaching 30% of its total sales (from whence comes the "70-100%" figure stated earlier.) 2. "Comics Between the Panels" by Mike Richardson and Steve Duin, which discusses the direct market, including the information that by 1988, the direct market controlled roughly 70% of the comics distribution market between them (from whence comes the "20-40%" figure stated earlier, as well as the dwindling newsstand market and the distribution wars of the mid 90's.) 3. "Tales from the Database" Chuck Rozanski. Some wish to dismiss Chuck, but he's had a front row seat to 40 years of comics history, from nearly every aspect of the market, from distributor (yes, they had a distribution service) to retailer to internet store. 4. "The Comic Chronicles" by John Jackson Miller, who, of course, is the editor of the Krause Standard Catalog of Comic Books. 5. Two Men and their Comic Books (the birth of Pacific Comics) by Jay Allen Sanford. http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2004/aug/19/two-men-and-their-comic-books/ ...and more.

Here's an example of actual data: The first time the Universal Product Code was printed on comics was in early 1976. Cover dates May/June for DC and Marvel. Since the Direct Market was in its infancy (1), there was no distinction between Direct Market and newsstand books until Feb of 1977, at which time Marvel began the DM cover marking test program (see the "Fat Diamonds" from 1977-1979, and "skinny diamonds" from 1977-on, especially company wide from 1979-on.) Since the majority of comics buyers continued to buy their comics from newsstands (2), and there were very few comics stores until the so-called "1979 explosion" (3), the vast majority of surviving comics from this period will quite obviously be newsstand copies. 1. "Direct Distribution" in Duin, Steve and Richardson, Mike (ed.s). Comics Between the Panels (Dark Horse Publishing, 1998), pp. 126-130. 2. "Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book" Paul Lopes pages 98-102 3. "Tales from the Database", Chuck Rozanski, milehighcomics.com.

That might be a better alternative to people taking RMA's rambling as fact. I can back up every single comment I make with data, Dunbar. I would suggest you learn how to disagree with someone without demeaning them and dismissing what they say as "rambling", without having the decency to post any data of your own.

And all I wanted was a little advice about my UXM 282. :shrug: :: -slym I've avoided posting in this thread, as there are some strong opinions, and some rather cutting remarks, being made. But I will say this, as my perspective. Newsstand copies from 1976 to 1984 are as plentiful in ultra high grade, if not moreso, than direct market copies, because that's what people were still used to. Comic shops did not flourish in America until the late 80's. Those who were inclined to keeping high grade copies were still buying them mostly from the newsstand. Newsstand sales account for 70-100% of the market during this period. Newsstand copies from 1985-1993 waned, but did not totally disappear. Depending on the book, there are probably 1/2 as many high grade copies as there are direct market copies. Obviously, this average goes down the farther down the road we get. Comic shops dominated the landscape, and most buying shifted from the newsstand to the comic shop during this period. Newsstand sales, however, still accounted for between 20-40% of the entire market during this period. Newsstand copies from 1994-2002 in ultra high grade are scarce to very scarce, as traditional newsstands either limited their orders, or stopped carrying comics altogether, and the vast majority of purchases were made at comics speciality stores. While newsstand sales still accounted for a decent chunk (10-20%), it was not significant, and when print runs plummeted in the late 90's, the newsstand was not unaffected. Newsstand copies from 2003-2014 are quite scarce in ultra high grade, as newsstand distribution essentially vanished as a means of comics distribution in North America (with notable exceptions), and Marvel even pulled out of the newsstand distribution chain entirely, after 70 years of publication to that market. Now...what are we most concerned with here? The period essentially from 1982-1993, right? (Roughly, let's not quibble over exact dates, folks.) My personal preference is, and always has been, for the direct market copies. They have, since 1979/80, had "nicer" cover art, logo, price boxes, etc. I *hate* the look of the UPC code....it's all so very grocery store to me. I don't mind having UPC copies, but I would prefer a direct copy as well. I much, much, MUCH prefer the Marvel skinny diamonds to the "M", and even the square price box of 1987-1993-ish is preferable to the Curtis code and UPC lines. I MUCH prefer the neat DC price boxes of 1983-1992-ish, with the prices in the US, Can, and the UK...over the garish giant number and price of the newsstands (Canadian pricing being the exception.) In 1994, the UPC become standard, so it really didn't matter much anymore. Plus...the dialog and art in the UPC box has almost always been interesting to me, especially the McFarlane Amazing Spidey #303-311 box numbering, and later art, that graced the box. If I have to take a UPC, I'll take it...but I'll pick a direct over a UPC, presented with equal opportunity. Now...will people pay a premium for the newsstand copies in ultra high grade? They might...but experience has shown that overall, people still prefer the direct market books to the newsstand books, even in ultra high grade. Are newsstand copies substantially rare enough in ultra high grade over their direct counterparts to warrant a premium? For a book like New Teen Titans #2, definitely not. For a book like Spidey #300? Ehhhh....it was a double sized book, so it's not really fair to compare...doubles ALWAYS got more beat up on the newsstand. For a book like, say, Batman #427? Probably not, because the direct copy has a special feature...the infamous phone number...that the newsstand did not have. For a book like, say, Batman Adventures #12, which is substantially rarer than its direct counterpart in ultra high grade? Sure. (By the way...for those of you wondering about that Batman #427? They did that because the newsstands got the books AFTER the direct market, and by the time they got their copies, the deadline to call was already past...forgot about that one when discussing that in the other thread.) Again, the market has not made a premium distinction between either one, especially in ultra high grade, simply because the books of the (1982-1993) time period just aren't that much rarer, and are oftentimes much, much more common, in all grades, to establish a premium for ultra high grade (9.6+) But if the newsstand books appeal to you...and believe me, after the 1994 changeover, I much prefer having, and actively pursue, BOTH versions...then by all means, pay a premium for the ultra high grade copies, and the market will respond by bringing you more opportunities to buy them. Overall, though? At least for the Bronze/Copper ages, it's just not that big a deal, so it's probably going to remain pretty much even on average for the eras for either version. PS. The DC whitmans are not reprints.

True, usually if I join a chat forum I spend the first year reading all the threads on the board. Then, after that year, I feel I am entitled to respond. I don't know if he's trolling every thread, but he definitely has no couth, as was exemplified by his first comment on this thread. Who are you saying was trolling, JC or fatninja....? (I think everyone assumed you were referring to fatninja. JC has demeaned people here for a very long time.)

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. That's a pretty funny definition. It relies on little more than a person's feelings (which are notoriously unreliable) to determine who is, and who is not, a "troll." It's a very victim-y definition. If someone posts something that is completely false ("Superman the movie was the best film of 1984!"), and someone else corrects them, more often than not, that person is "upset" that they were corrected publicly. Has the corrector now "trolled" them? By that definition...yes. You're new here. You don't know the backstory. You would be well served to do some research before posting conclusions (as would we all.)

This thread is a hoot, too.

Congrats, admitting your problem is the first step towards regaining your mental health. Now it's your turn... Joe C seemingly developed argument burnout/other things to do about 2 years ago, but before then he was right up there with you.

Question 1 - This crazy rare book was supposed to be packaged with an x-men board game, but ended up making it into the packages, and then offered as a mail-away from the game makers, right? Question 2 - you guys consider this book as a "second print", or a rare reprint/giveaway like the comics they pack with marvel legends figures and such? I would catagorize a 2nd print would have to be for sale to the public, from the distributer,at shops, not reproduced for a toy or game. Question 3 Are second prints all considered "reprints", or does some amount of time have to pass from issue date to be classified a "reprint" , instead of 2nd print, by the collecting public? (I know, apples and oranges, just curious) Cheers ! I can comment on this since I have been studying this particular book for a while now. 1. This book was a mail away but it was also packaged in the board game as well. I know this to be 100% fact because I got one in my board game. They were not "mail away only". I am going to guess that they started as mail aways but then Pressman Games decided to throw their remaining few into the board games as well. 2. I call them "pack-ins". Reprints refer to something else entirelysee question #3's answer. "Giveaway" sounds like you won them. 3. This depends on a couple factors. The biggest one is "Was this a direct copy of the original 297?". Other than the cover's colors being changed, was anything else changed in this book? Are the ads in this variant the same as the ads in the original? If it is exactly the same, then I would call this 2nd print. If anything was changed, like how the Marvel Legends pack-ins included ads for Marvel Legends figures, then it would be a reprint. Also of note are the few other comics Marvel reprinted with different colors on the covers. For example, UXM #282, NM #87, and NM #100, all of which are considered 2nd prints. That's an interesting definition, but it doesn't always work. New Mutants #87 was reprinted over a year after the original, while the X-Men #282 (and #281) and New Mutants #100 were printed immediately. The standard definition of a "later printing" (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.) is an immediate reissue based on initial demand (and sellout at the publisher/distributor level) of the original. A "reprint" is a book that is printed due to different factors other than initial demand of the original book. New Mutants #87, Amazing Spiderman #101, 265, etc. So Hulk #377 2nd, based on initial demand for the original, is a true 2nd print, while the 3rd is technically a reprint.

Congrats, admitting your problem is the first step towards regaining your mental health. Now it's your turn...

Then just boot RMA, as he'd argue about what he had for breakfast this morning. Unlike you right? Hey, I'm trying to stay cool, but some guys like RMA are just out-there zany and argue with anyone over anything. That's what he does, That's all he does! It's true. That's all I do. It's all I've ever done my entire life. I don't even eat or sleep, I just argue with people, my dogs, the wall, the clock, the fly on the wall, the fly on the clock on the wall, that piece of foil over there, a bowl of cereal, and a couple of leaves sitting on the lawn. Hell, I even argued with some pigeons the other day. They're so uppity all the time, thinking they're always right about everything. Damn pigeons. Acceptance is the first step.

Then just boot RMA, as he'd argue about what he had for breakfast this morning. Unlike you right? Hey, I'm trying to stay cool, but some guys like RMA are just out-there zany and argue with anyone over anything. That's what he does, That's all he does! It's true. That's all I do. It's all I've ever done my entire life. I don't even eat or sleep, I just argue with people, my dogs, the wall, the clock, the fly on the wall, the fly on the clock on the wall, that piece of foil over there, a bowl of cereal, and a couple of leaves sitting on the lawn. Hell, I even argued with some pigeons the other day. They're so uppity all the time, thinking they're always right about everything. Damn pigeons.

Then just boot RMA, as he'd argue about what he had for breakfast this morning. (Take note, people: the definition of "arguing" here is what most people simply call "discussion." And if you question anything JC says, you're "arguing" with him.)