heartened

Oops, just saw Mark's qualification. He is talking about percent WITHIN the range, whereas I was talking percent of the HIGH part of the range. I think it's easier to do it the way I'm doing it, as no one is going to memorize these ranges, just where the peak is.

Looks like Miller DD is there twice now. Would agree to keep it in the higher bracket, and leave Ronin/Wolverinie/SinCity in the lower one. McFarlane Spidey is there twice now too. I would separate McFarlane Spidey/MarvelTales in the lower bracket, and McFarlane ASM in the higher one.

Regarding Mark's breakdown, I strongly disagree with the price discrepancies there. These are all important artists, and important artists the spread between A pages and C pages is more like 100% and 50%. It is hard for pages to drop below that level. The premium for A+ ranges from 30% to 100% of the A price, so I would write that there and not say "stupid money". Very few people are offering more than double FMV on art that is already expensive. That may have been true back in the day, but not anymore. There was a time I was paying triple FMV to pry something loose. Those days, sadly, are long gone.

I still think A level Wrightson ST examples are over 20K. I have not seen one for sale for a long time, but B pages are routinely selling for 15K. How can the A pages not be over 20K if one were to come up?

This is for panel pages not covers.

Agree with Felix. Supes Annual down a notch. I'm a bit surprised at putting V pages the same as Watchmen. I think they are close but personally would put them at 10-20K. The A+ ones are over 20K, but we're not counting those. I'm also tempted to push the Wrightson ST pages to over 20K. The pages I've seen recently sell are B to B+ pages and they've gone for 12-15K.

Evening gang,

 

With all of the recent renewed chatter about the future of the hobby and speculation over what will hold value and what won't, I thought it might be interesting to quickly map out which artists/runs garner what prices these days.

 

My list below if based on what I thought an A-level panel page by that particular artist on that particular run would sell for based on public sales and whatever private sales I am aware of. Once again, these ranges are for A-level interior panel pages - not covers or splashes or the highly coveted A+ examples or strips. There will be many examples of sales that are higher than the ranges I've stated but these are typically for A+ level examples where frankly all bets are off and emotion takes control.

 

I would love to hear any thoughts on any additions, changes, etc.

 

Here it is:

 

$40k and higher

 

Kirby Fantastic Four

Ditko Spidey

Bolland Killing Joke

Miller Dark Knight Returns

Romita Sr Spidey 2up

 

$20-40k

 

McFarlane Spidey

Byrne X-men

Frazetta Creepy (Werewolf)

Gibbons Watchmen

Wood Daredevil

Kirby Tales of Suspense/Avengers

 

$10-20k

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing

Miller Daredevil/Ronin/Wolverine/Sin City

Romita Spidey small-art

Neal Adams Batman/Green Lantern/X-men/Avengers

Kane/Sprang Batman 2up

Cockrum X-men 1st run

John Buscema Silver Surfer

BWS Conan

Frazetta Thun’da/Others

Kirby Journey into Mystery/X-men

Steranko X-men/Others

Bolland Judge Dredd

Gibbons Superman Annual 11

 

$5-10k

 

Totleben Swamp Thing

Swan Superman 2up

Kubert Hawkman 2up

Sekowsky JLA 2up

Infantino Flash 2up

Perez Avengers 1st run

Mignola Hellboy

Buscema Avengers 1st run

McKean Arkham Asylum

Marshall Rogers Detective

Neal Adams Deadman

Mazzucchelli Daredevil

Starlin Captain Marvel and related

Colan Daredevil

Alex Ross Marvels/Kingdom Come

Michael Golden Dr.Strange/Avengers Annual

BWS Weapon X

Jim Lee Hush/X-men

Swan/Perez Superman Man of Tomorrow

Kaluta Shadow

Byrne Fantastic Four/Iron Fist

Adlard Walking Dead

Tony Moore Walking Dead

 

$3-5k

 

Gil Kane Atom/Green Lantern 2x

Perez New Teen Titans/Crisis

Art Adams Longshot/X-men Annual

Ploog Werewolf by Night/Ghost Rider

Simonson Thor

Aparo Batman 1970’s

Layton Iron Man

Mike Zeck Captain America

Michael Turner Superman/Batman

Cockrum X-men 2nd run

Colan Tomb of Dracula

Paul Smith X-men

Sienkiewicz Elektra Assassin

Darwyn Cooke New Frontier

 

 

Some thoughts: I would move the Romita Sr spidey panel pages down to the 20-40K range. I would move Neal Adams Avengers and GL one notch lower. I would add Totleben Miracleman to the notch higher than his ST run. I think Steranko should be up a notch. Doubt you can find an A example of Steranko for less than 20K today. I would add Zeck Spidey/Kraven to the notch above his Captain America run. And I would add Perez Infinity Gauntlet in at the same level as Crisis. Finally, the McKean Arkham needs to be up a notch at least. An A page is in the 15K-25K range these days for sure.

I'm sure there's more stuff to change, but that's what jumps out right now. Although some will find this exercise annoying and too investment focused, I do think it's a good idea so people have a general guide.

Best,

Sweet, Garf! I have quite a bunch of his prelims... will post more later!

 

Dan

I only have one prelim, but if I see prelims or color guides to art that I own I always would buy them. It's cool to have them all together. The prelim I have is to one of the Killing Joke pages I own. It was nice to put them together.

Anyone else think it's ridiculous that Marvel is relaunching Miracleman as a regular monthly...? So...we're supposed to wait TWO YEARS to finally get any new material? I don't understand how they can expect to maintain hype for that long when reprinting older material. IMO, it would make much more sense to release the first 24 on a weekly schedule, and then go to monthly with issues 25+.

 

I think it would be ridiculous if they are reprinting stories that have been well-read over the years and are familiar. This is different, though, as most comic fans either have never heard of it or never read it; thus it will be like a brand new series to 99.9% of people out there. Consequently, it should hold its own as a "new title" and "new story" if the art and story itself holds up, which I think it should. For the select few of us who have read the story before, you are right... we'll just be waiting till the new stuff. But I think we're the minority, and Marvel knows it. Of course time will tell.. If they muck up the launch or don't get traction early, then maybe they'll rethink their strategy.

I would think the same. Maybe they will pad out the series to ensure they reach the magic numbers and maybe reprint Miracleman #1 3D as #8 as that does have an overall Moore narrative "Saturday Morning Pictures" (but does reprint non-Moore material around it). There is also the "Yesterday Gambit" story from Warrior #4/Summer Special so that could maybe make an appearance as well.

OK, from Cory Sedlmeier, the editor working on this project:

"Earlier issues will have some variance between Eclipse's numbering and ours. We're including the three Warpsmith solo stories and Warrior #4 so our breaks aren't going to be exactly the same. By the time we get to issue #9 they will line up with the Eclipse numbering and be the same from there on."

Hope that helps.

No new Gaiman material until 2016.

 

What!? Now what's going on?

 

They're reprinting the entire run, which presumably includes #8 (which had no new material). That gives them 24 issues worth to get through before new stuff. I did see that 2 issues were solicited for January, so maybe they'll get there faster. The linked article also offers 2016 as the start date for new stuff, but he also says that might be post-Gaiman and Buckingham.

 

Let's say for example that we were looking at some time in 2016 as a possible date for the continuation of MM's stories beyond Neil and Bucky.

 

I'm not sure how many more issues of The Silver Age and The Dark Age were originally intended and how many of those the guys still want to tell. Both gentlemen are at different places in their careers and lives now, and may not have the same creative vision they were working on in 1993.

 

Issue #8 won't be reprinted, as there is no new material there. And it is true they are doing two issues in January just to launch, but then it goes monthly. I have 14 covers and pages from the original run that I let Marvel scan for the re-release. So, all this information comes straight from the editors.

 

Best,

 

If no issue no.8, will no.9 take its place?

I would've thought it's imperiative to maintain the original numbering as it's part of the folklore - i.e. the big deal about Marvelmiracleman no.15?

not only that, but the biggest seller no.25?

Good question. I'll ask the editor.

No new Gaiman material until 2016.

 

What!? Now what's going on?

 

They're reprinting the entire run, which presumably includes #8 (which had no new material). That gives them 24 issues worth to get through before new stuff. I did see that 2 issues were solicited for January, so maybe they'll get there faster. The linked article also offers 2016 as the start date for new stuff, but he also says that might be post-Gaiman and Buckingham.

 

Let's say for example that we were looking at some time in 2016 as a possible date for the continuation of MM's stories beyond Neil and Bucky.

 

I'm not sure how many more issues of The Silver Age and The Dark Age were originally intended and how many of those the guys still want to tell. Both gentlemen are at different places in their careers and lives now, and may not have the same creative vision they were working on in 1993.

Issue #8 won't be reprinted, as there is no new material there. And it is true they are doing two issues in January just to launch, but then it goes monthly. I have 14 covers and pages from the original run that I let Marvel scan for the re-release. So, all this information comes straight from the editors.

Best,

I've often wondered why Miracleman 14 hasn't been considered more important.

 

An obvious answer is that it's overshadowed by MM 15. Which is semi-understandable.

 

SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE THAT HAVEN'T READ IT YET (I know it's odd because it's so old, but this will be new for a TON of people when the reprints start coming)

 

I'm specifically referring to the scene where Kid Miracleman's alter ego is anally raped by some older kids (which results in him finally loosing the evil one and the whole scene in MM 15).

 

MM 9 is constantly referred to as a key comic point due to the "graphic birthing scenes". But MM 14, IMO, blows that away. Child rape in comics? I doubt that happened before this (or not on such a public stage as MM's popularity).

 

Frankly, I thought 14 was one of the better issues in the series.

 

Pat

Agreed that scene is as graphic and sticks in your mind as much as anything in #15, and maybe moreso because it happens first. I own the cover to #14 and this particular page. Actually, I had the page for a while, then had to trade it away for something, and then found a way to get it back at auction. It is disturbing, but a key moment in the run and classic Moore. So glad it is being reprinted for a new audience.

Lots of great choices. My faves would be SOST 21, Miracleman 15 and Killing Joke. Don't ask me to choose one though!

I've been in this hobby long enough to know that we are not really art collectors. We are storybook art collectors. Take away the story and the characters, and the art almost never stands alone. We should start recognizing that, as all the valuations we place on the art we collect is really multi-factorial, and based on the character, story, era, nostalgia (i.e. readership at the time) and yes, perhaps lastly, the art aesthetics itself. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, but it'll make this whole debate about who pencils, who inks, etc. obsolete. Those types of nuances are fine when you're talking pure art where the valuation is solely based on the art itself, but I would suggest strongly that the values we place on the "art" we collect is 90% based on everything else I mentioned above and only 10% based on the pure aesthetics of the piece. It's time we acknowledged it. In fact, long time collectors know this to be true, and can guess prices on art mostly based on all the factors I described above.

I would contend, though, that reasons we collect – nostalgia, the art itself, investment – will vary from person to person. I say that because I find myself frequently coveting and sometimes buying art from books I have no nostalgic feelings for. The most nostalgic era of comics for me is the mid 60s to the early 70s, but I have very little art from that period. I may be extremely nostalgic for JLA issues from the 60s, but make little effort to pursue the art since I don't care much for Sekowsky. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy to have one, but I wouldn't pursue it like I would something like a Ploog Kull splash which I covet for the art itself. So all those factors exist, but motivate different collectors to different degrees.

Point taken. I was, of course, speaking as a general comment. We all have exceptions to this "rule".

I've been in this hobby long enough to know that we are not really art collectors. We are storybook art collectors. Take away the story and the characters, and the art almost never stands alone. We should start recognizing that, as all the valuations we place on the art we collect is really multi-factorial, and based on the character, story, era, nostalgia (i.e. readership at the time) and yes, perhaps lastly, the art aesthetics itself. Absolutely nothing wrong with this, but it'll make this whole debate about who pencils, who inks, etc. obsolete. Those types of nuances are fine when you're talking pure art where the valuation is solely based on the art itself, but I would suggest strongly that the values we place on the "art" we collect is 90% based on everything else I mentioned above and only 10% based on the pure aesthetics of the piece. It's time we acknowledged it. In fact, long time collectors know this to be true, and can guess prices on art mostly based on all the factors I described above.

While we're at it, how much work did Miller do on the first Wolverine Limited Series? I recall that Rubinstein said that Miller did only extremely loose breakdowns, though I don't recall whether that was directly on board or on separate loose sheets of paper like DD #185-190. Does anyone remember?

 

I'm not sure on the specifics, but it is pretty clear from looking at the art style that it is mainly Rubinstein.

Does anyone here think that these pages would be more valuable than they are if they were 100% Miller? Proves my point that Miller's magic on everything he touched had mostly to do with story, pacing, and layouts. A great finisher pulls it all together, as Rubenstein did here and as Janson did on DD. I think the prices on the Wolverine Limited Series corroborate my thoughts on the pricing on the DD run, where there is essentially no price transition even when Miller became "looser", and the only real transitions are when the peak storyline started to fade away and when Janson took over everything on the art board.

This argument about Miller/Janson and the transition in art is a bit ridiculous. The bottom line is that Miller and Janson were an unbelievable team on this run, and neiher did it alone. Why we feel the need to idolize pencilers and disparage inkers is beyond me. You cannot separate the two on a run such as this, which frankly is yes partly about the art but mostly about the exquisite story and mood it created. The nostalgia, again, is all about the story, not the art. I agree that if you want art from this it should be art that both people touched and created, so a pure Janson piece of work doesn't have the same resonance. But, from all accounts that I've heard over the years, it is safe to say that Miller and Janson worked together at least till issue 181 (on the interiors) and maybe to issue 185. Personally, for me, my love for the run centers on the Elektra saga, and so that run from 168 to 181 will always command a huge premium whether it was all Miller, all Janson or as we all know to be true some combination of Miller and Janson that together made magic.

 

My two cents.

 

Hari

 

Hari, no offense, but Miller is the visionary on the run of DD168-181 that you are so enamoured with and its really Frank's words, layout and pacing that is so nostalgic.

 

I am not taking away anything from Janson (he is a wonderful artist), but if it was Janson pencils, the layout and pacing would be different, possibly very different. And I somehow doubt the storyline would be as nostalgic to you and you certainly wouldn't considet paying as much for it.

 

My two cents.

No offense taken! I agree. To clarify, I was not implying that Janson alone is just as good for this run (please re-read my post above). But, the combination of Miller doing the penciling or layout on the actual board, assuring the pacing and story, and Janson finishing up everything was perfect, and that lasted all the way through at least issue 184. I do agree that the transition at issue 185 left more leeway for Janson to do his own thing, and that moves us away from that perfect combination. However, I don't see any difference between 158-172 and then issues 173-181, and if anything in my mind the later issues that were "looser" Miller are much more valuable because of that incredible story. In fact, I don't even collect his run before the Elektra issues (168-181), regardless of the fact that he was doing full pencils during that early part. If your argument were correct, then you should see a sharp decrease in prices at issue 173, when in fact the very opposity is true... prices stay at the highest level all the way through the death of Elektra, with the real transition point at issue 168 (not 173). Hope my point is coming across.

This argument about Miller/Janson and the transition in art is a bit ridiculous. The bottom line is that Miller and Janson were an unbelievable team on this run, and neiher did it alone. Why we feel the need to idolize pencilers and disparage inkers is beyond me. You cannot separate the two on a run such as this, which frankly is yes partly about the art but mostly about the exquisite story and mood it created. The nostalgia, again, is all about the story, not the art. I agree that if you want art from this it should be art that both people touched and created, so a pure Janson piece of work doesn't have the same resonance. But, from all accounts that I've heard over the years, it is safe to say that Miller and Janson worked together at least till issue 181 (on the interiors) and maybe to issue 185. Personally, for me, my love for the run centers on the Elektra saga, and so that run from 168 to 181 will always command a huge premium whether it was all Miller, all Janson or as we all know to be true some combination of Miller and Janson that together made magic.

My two cents.

Hari

If anyone's interested, I just posted the original art (oversized) final 3 page battle sequence from Comico Primer #2 on my CAF site (and also have an announcement thread on the original art boards). Feel free to take a look.

Hari

I'm a fan of comic book stories and characters primarily, and I search out art from stories that I either remember loving as a child, or read and developed an affection for as an adult. I have no art just for art's sake... there has to be additional attachment for me to buy it, and that means usually a compelling story and almost always a great artist/writer collaboration. That, of course, is a very personal and subjective issue; in some cases many other collectors agree and drive up prices, whereas in other cases I'm one of a few collectors who like the material and prices remain modest. Either way, I'm happy when I get something that fulfills the criteria above.

I too hope they can turn this around. I have had nothing but professional dealings with them in the past.

Best of luck, Roger.

Hari

How much it cost you?

PM sent. It's not for sale, though.

Hi guys,

 

Figured you Moon Knight fans would get a kick out of this page I have, from the first appearance.

 

 

 

WOW

 

Very nice!!!!!

 

In my opinion that is a very good page to have actually not even very good I would say AWESOME.

 

Lucky you.

 

I was lucky enough to have a good friend who held this page for me before showing it to anyone else! I really like first appearance pages, and this one (like you said) is one of the best pages in that book.

Oh there goes that Hari showing off his unbelievable OA collection -- what's that address again?

 

Very nice collection by the way.

I live in Philadelphia

Listen, just 'cause you're married now and trying hard to juggle your old hobby with your new married life, doesn't mean you have to take it out on us

See you this weekend, buddy.

Hari

Hi guys,

Figured you Moon Knight fans would get a kick out of this page I have, from the first appearance.

I agree with much of this, but there are definitely a lot of people who can and do spend over 10K without blinking. Your figure of "under 10 people" is way off. There are certainly at least 50 people at the over 10K level, if not more.

 

Didn't mean "in general", meant specifically for any given "better" individual lot/piece in question "worth" $10k+. If you're holding the cover to Batman 15 and want to offer it privately, for real cash, no bs, your short list is tremendously short even though interest among all tiers of fanbase is very high. Just because you've got that cash free and clear to spend on comic art, w/o guilty feelings or other issues, doesn't mean you specifically want Batman 15.

 

Also I'm not counting dealers here. For them it's a business decision.

 

I mean, Hari, that complete Ditko book is nice, right? But will you be hitting the kitty or selling stuff to finance it? Or maybe it's not your cup of tea? Thus removing a fella that can -at the right time, for the right piece- find a way to spend $10k+ cash on art.

Yes, I agree. For individual items, the list of buyers may be short. But, that's the same with any high-end collectibles.