On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:33 PM, comix4fun said:

HARI!!!!

Ha!  I've been out of it but feeling the need to check back in lately!  But you can already see it's only once a month!  How you doing buddy?  Shoot me an email or text to catch up.

12 minutes ago, vodou said:

Very nice 'jump' in the last seconds from 8k to...

SAGA OF THE SWAMP THING #24 COVER - The Auction Has Ended 1984, From early in the all-time classic Alan Moore run--the JLA and the Floronic Man

Current Bid: $22,694

Yup, that's a very healthy jump.  I love these early covers, and currently own the #27, but I was watching this one too. 

Looks like the consensus top five picks matched my own top five ranking in exactly the same order (#24, Ann. #1, #16, #20, #1).

 

Any one of those covers would be quite an addition to a collection. If anyone needed any affirmation that those are the top BWS CONAN covers...well, you they got it!

 

Some people only want a girl if everyone else thinks she's cute too

Hate the early covers. His anatomy was stiff and his faces/heads were awkward, with the exception of #5. The love for #1 is simply because it's #1, and there is a ton of collectibility recognition surrounding that issue. For me, #24 is tops, followed by the annual, then I like #5, #16 and #20.

Annual is out but I haven't gotten it yet. Any reviews? Also, looks like we're a few weeks ago from reprinting MM 15!!

Is Byrne X-Men really at this range for A pages, or for the A+ pages? Let's discuss.

A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject. We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well. After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all. He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board. As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.

 

Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp). But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in -script. The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing. I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.

 

As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue. So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.

 

Bottom line: I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.

Such a long thread and we've come back to the same conclusion we all "knew" 10 years ago. The transition was between 184 and 185. Geez.

My top 10.

31-32, 35-36, 38-43

I'd take the Cerebus at 9.9 over the Hulk 181 at 9.9, as the Hulk will come around again (and maybe even be cheaper the next time around as there'll be two now, or three, or four over time). When I was collecting books, I always went for the book that was rarer and more expensive overall first, so that I "clinch" it before it goes up further and out of reach. This is similar to buying all the keys first when starting to build a run. The keys are expensive and so you need to "stop the clock" on them before you turn to the ones that aren't escalating as much in price year after year.

Surprised nobody has posted in a month here, looks like #9 came out yesterday without any censorship of the graphic birth images (if my memory of the original #9 is correct).

 

http://comicbook.com/blog/2014/08/07/marvel-s-miracleman-9-the-miracle-of-birth/

Getting close to the good stuff! Nice to see the numbering is back on track when it matters ....

Got in a great Stevens piece

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1148337

Enjoy!

Hi everyone!

Thanks to Bill Cox, we were able to load the list onto his new CAF forums. Please go there and check the forums out. There is a thread there now on the "market data" tab about this value listing. Let's try to move the discussion over there, since we are all members of CAF as well. Only MIke Davis and I can modify the list, but we will be looking for consensus opinion to raise and lower estimated prices, and to add new artist/run combinations. We will, above all else, try to be fair, balanced and without bias. That is why there are two of us in control of the list. Consensus must be reached by the group of all members posting, plus by the two of us.

This should be fun. I want to again thank Bill Cox for hosting. See you there!

They are making money now. Countless fogeys like me are happily bucking up for stories we've already read

True! Plus, honestly, I'm thinking the word of mouth will hit the streets once the Olympus storyline begins. Give it time.

There's no reason the original post in this thread can't be the master copy. Would work fine if you put the date of the edits next to the lines you add, append and bracket the previous entry for updates to anything existing and bracket and mark as removed for things you get rid of (again with a date). Dates would make it easy to check the thread for discussion.

 

p.s. what are your thoughts on BWS Machine Man (limited series), does it make the cut?

I think we need it permanently somewhere. Letting anyone make changes is probably not good at this point. We can take turns "managing" it, but I like the idea of hosting it somewhere for the world to see and use (not just those on these boards). Mike and I have asked Bill Cox to see about it.

No word from the moderators? This is an important list and undertaking, though. I'd suggest someone put this ont the web somewhere accessible via a link, and then we can update that list only when consensus is reached on things. Who wants to "own" this? That way, it is "locked" by having only one person update it formally, but we can use this thread for discussion and consensus building.

Update

 

$650K and higher

 

Herb Trimpe

 

$40k and higher

 

Kirby Fantastic Four 2up

Ditko Spidey

Bolland Killing Joke

Miller Dark Knight Returns

 

$30-40k

 

Romita Sr Spidey 2up

Frazetta Creepy (Werewolf)

Ditko Dr.Strange 2up

 

$20-30k

 

McFarlane Spidey

Byrne X-men

Gibbons Watchmen

Wood Daredevil

Kirby Tales of Suspense/Avengers

Steranko X-men/Other

 

$10-20k

 

Wrightson Swamp Thing

Miller DD/Ronin/Wolverine/Sin City

Romita Spidey small-art

Neal Adams Batman/X-men

Kane/Sprang Batman 2up

Cockrum X-men 1st run

John Buscema Silver Surfer

BWS Conan

Frazetta Thun’da/Others

Kirby/Stone Journey into Mystery/X-men 2up

Bolland Judge Dredd

Totleben Miracleman

McKean Arkham Asylum

Lloyd V for Vendetta

Kieth Sandman

Dringenberg Sandman

Kirby FF small-art

Everett GA work

 

$5-10k

 

Totleben Swamp Thing

Swan Superman 2up

Kubert Hawkman/War Art 2up

Sekowsky JLA 2up

Perez Avengers 1st run

Mignola Hellboy

Buscema Avengers 1st run

Marshall Rogers Detective

Neal Adams Deadman/Green Lantern/Avengers

Mazzucchelli Daredevil Born Again

Starlin Captain Marvel and related

Colan Daredevil

Alex Ross Marvels/Kingdom Come

Michael Golden Dr.Strange/Avengers Annual

BWS Weapon X

Jim Lee Hush/X-men

Swan/Perez Superman Man of Tomorrow

Kaluta Shadow

Byrne Fantastic Four/Iron Fist

Tony Moore Walking Dead

Zeck Punisher/Spidey Kraven Last Hunt

Gibbons Superman Annual 11

Bachalo Sandman

Kelley Jones Sandman

Sienkiewicz Elektra Assassin

Simonson Thor (Simonson inks)

Everett 1970's work

Gulacy MOKF (pen & ink)

Ditko Warren work

Wrightson Warren work

Ware

Miller ASM Annual

 

$3-5k

 

Byrne Cap/MTU/Avengers 1st run

Infantino Flash 2up

Gil Kane Atom/Green Lantern 2up

Perez New Teen Titans/Crisis/Infinity Gauntlet

Art Adams Longshot/X-men Annual

Ploog Werewolf by Night/Ghost Rider

Aparo Batman 1970’s

Michael Turner Superman/Batman

Cockrum X-men 2nd run

Paul Smith X-men

Dillon Preacher

Adlard Walking Dead

Kirby Cap 2nd run/DC work

Wood/Ingels/Kurtzman/Davis EC work

Gulacy MOKF (other inkers)

JRJR ASM 1st run

Andru ASM

Hernandez Love and Rockets

Colan Iron Man 2up

Clowes

 

 

I think every A level Clowes page would break 5k. Even average pages go for 4.

While updated, how about this:

1. Please remove that Trimpe outlier.

2. Would change Bachalo Sandman to Bachalo Sandman/Death

3. Would Wrightson Frankenstein Plates be on this list? If so, 40K and over.

4. Paul Smith X-Men now should be 5-10K I think.

5. Miller 300 should be 20K to 30K.

6. Leach Miracleman should be 10-20K.

Can we "lock" this list somewhere so people can't just change it on a whim? That way you can be in charge of updating based on recommendations? It's become a good resource and, although I know "buttock" was just joking, it's important that it can't be changed without oversight.

The list above...i know its all arbitrary..but i have to say... one should be lowered:

 

 

"Sekowsky JLA 2up 5-10k"

 

i've owned i'd guess over 70 twice up JLA pages in my time....and i have never even once sold a non splash for over 4k....

 

also....i've sold a fair amount of GOOD content ross andru ASM interior pages for 3k and i tihnk a few have sold for over 3k on ebay and a few at auctions.

 

I think this list is pretty accurate overall.

 

 

Thanks Mike, I believe Bechara has publicly sold some A-level JLA 21/22 interiors in the $5-10k range. Perhaps these Crisis pages are the exception but that's what I was basing it on.

I agree with Mike. I think we have to be careful with anomalies. For example, the Trimpe Wolverine page is not representative of the Trimpe market, it's representative of the Wolverine market. JLA 21/22 would be A+ pages, and we specifically were looking not to include those types of pages on this list.

Just picked up the new Book 1 TPB. 20% discount at the Special Edition NYC Comic Com, through Midtown Comics. Flipped through then looked at the back cover and noticed they used my Warrior #2 cover art for the back cover of the book! A nice little treat for me!

Agree, a little thing for the money. But then again we used to pay a lot less for a lot more back in the day. In fact those old 10 cent comics have as much or more than the comics of today in them, and today's price is quite a bit higher. That's quite a markup for glossy pages and a wider color palette!

Hari

To my recollection, a few Trimpe Hulk panel pages have hit just above $3k (most seem to be in the broader $1k-$3k range, with better ones in the $2k-$3k range). We are talking non-splash, correct?

That sounds about right. I wonder if we need a category for 1-3K, although that might be too big a listing.

I know you can't be serious ....

This is what you call an anomaly. That being said, where should we really put A level Trimpe pages (not A+++++++++++) pages? Does he even make the last category? Any examples from public sales other than this one?

I just saw this

 

http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1088375

 

Oh Man, Oh man, Jealously.

 

I would also like to give a big you to all of you owners of original art of MM.

 

Oh man that Mick Austin piece is so cool!

Yup, that's a nice one.

I just picked up MM 3. Certainly seems like you get your money's worth this time at least. More story this round!

The DKR pages seem to still be pretty strong, no? Hard to get anything with Bat man or Joker on it for less than 25K. Even the one in CLink when for that range. Exceptional pages the sky's the limit still.

 

Yes and no. $25k is not cheap. But on the other hand, those first few that auctioned all sold for $38k, $40k, etc...

Weren't they better pages? That's my recollection, although need to go back and look.

Not speaking to this piece specifically but I walk away from pieces with faded inks because the fading only stands a chance to get worse and not better.

 

It would have to be a significant discount to make me even consider a piece that in the process of "fading to gray".

 

+1

 

It's why I would never consider going after a Death of Capt. Marvel page.

 

Scott

 

DOCM is a key book. All the pages are done in maker. Some are faded more than others, but some are really in great shape still. I used to own probably 8-10 pages from the book and the differences are large. The importance of this book outweighs the fading issue though, in my opinion. The pages are beautiful, oversized, and the story is great. Worth having a page in the collection, regardless of the fading.

 

OK, a caveat. If I found a great page that had been preserved so that fading was almost non existent, I'd be a buyer. But all those pages that have already turned purple or light brown? Pass baby!

 

Scott

There are definitely some preserved pages; they are of course never offered for sale

I don't think there is a one size fits all answer about whether faded marker inks should be re-inked. Too many factors. How bad was the fading? Was it damaged and an eyesore or was it just "showing it's age"? Who decides it's an eyesore? Who is doing the re-inking? Is the new ink artist capable of working in the appropriate style? Should it only be the original inker, but what if the original inker's skills have faded or his style has changed/evolved over time? Does an expert re-ink add or maintain the value of a fading piece, or does it de-value or even taint the fading piece, no matter how expertly done?

 

There are probably many more considerations. I'll go back to an original point that I think most collectors WOULD agree on, and that's one of disclosure, and perhaps even attribution. The more informed the collector, the better in this regard, and then let them make the choice.

 

I do know that for me, there are circumstances I would restore/re-ink faded work, and there are circumstances where I would not. I would determine that on a case by case basis. As a collector myself, those same determinations would apply on something I might add to my collection. Again, each collector can make that choice on their own, but only if it's an informed choice. And that might be the biggest challenge moving forward.

 

Scott

DOCM pages remain beautiful, faded but uniformly so. Not an eyesore at all; the only problem is potential for further fading. But, in all honesty they will outlive us all if kept away from sunlight.

The UXM page was more of an issue because it was partly in marker and partly in ink, so the marker was fading while the rest was not. Some might consider that an eyesore; I did not. I thought it unfortunate, and I'm sure it affected the asking price, but personally did not seem like a reason to reink it. This is of course subjective, and at the end of the day it's up to the current owner and the potential re-inker to decide. Just offering my two cents, as I'm friends with both in this case. But friends can agree to disagree

I wouldn't mind having pages professionally restored… I ESPECIALLY wouldn't mind somebody re-filling in the spotted blacks.

 

Question for Scott: Has anyone ever commissioned you to restore a faded piece originally inked by someone other than yourself?

 

If they can restore the Sistine Chapel, why not a McFarlane Amazing Spider-Man splash?

 

Yes.

 

Scott

 

No need to be coy. (I kid, I kid! )

 

From the CGC Boards, 7/27/2010:

 

Yes, guilty as charged. I re-inked all the faded marker work from the page in question [the Uncanny X-Men #133 end splash]. And with all due respect Hari, I think the page looked like hell when Albert commissioned me 3 or 4 years ago, so besides being paid for my service, I felt I was rescuing the piece from some hideously drastic fading. It was beyond an eyesore, and not in the way that glue stains or random white out can be, but more like something that was damaged. In the end, I was quite satisfied with the final result, and would defy anyone to be able to distinguish my line from Terry's. This is as much as anything due to the fact that Terry had a super clean, almost mechanical line at this time, which is the type of line easiest to "ghost" for an inker, as opposed to an expressive, organic line. My goal was to be as invisible and unobtrusive as humanly possible, and in my mind I succeeded. I can see how this might rub some people the wrong way, but it is what it is.

 

I don't know how common this practice is. I was asked at this years Comic Con by Joe M at All Star to do some similar restoration on a couple of Neal Adams Batman pages that had marker work by Adams that was badly faded and water damaged. For various reasons I won't go into, I declined.

 

If Albert sold or tried to sell this piece without full disclosure, tell me, and I will give him holy hell. Seems unlikely to me. But, I wonder if I should have noted and dated my work somehow in the margin or on the back of the page since it seems less and less likely that disclosure will be made as the piece changes hands. The quality of the piece won't fade, but the history of it might and that's a problem.

 

So bring out those torches and pitchforks, and I'll be waiting for you at the top of the windmill!

 

Scott Williams

 

Does an extensive restoration like this effect the value? I've seen at least one other Byrne/Austin Uncanny page that was badly faded.

 

I'm conflicted about this. If I was going to keep the page permanently having someone like scott who has a history with the X-men restore it would be my choice but if it was something I knew i was going to resell in the future I'd be more than a little nervous having it re-inked. Even by Austin. A restoration must be fairly expensive as well.

 

On the other hand, i imagine this was in horrible condition, probably sepia which would likely effect the value in the open market negatively. So what choice does one really have.

 

Comic book fans tend to be OCD when it comes to what they like and some might view this as sacrilege.

 

Same with the Mcfarlane page. Pages that are inked by other artists rarely com near the prices McFarlane inked pages pull on the Spider-man. Some fans are very particular about that

This was a long time ago, thanks for posting Gene. For what it's worth, I think it's sacrilege. I still don't think the piece was as bad as it is being made out to be prior to the restoration/reinking, but maybe it's just that I love seeing the original art, warts and all. Also, there's no way in Hell I'd want something re-inked, even if done perfectly like this. That's just me. But, you gotta figure it takes some big bids out of the equation if this comes up for sale one day.

I also agree that people's memories fade. Absolutely when this happens people should make note and resign it as a reinking or something; that's only fair and accurate. When Scott did this, it wasn't the norm to sign it like that, but hopefully people will do this going forward if they have this sort of work done.