Garystar

46 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

they eventually appeared, about 6 months late, they were distributed not by T & P, but by Gold Star Publications, who were at that time involved more with the importations of magazines.

Thanks Albert mystery solved. I was aware of the gap and I’ve seen the stamp before but just thought it was a local bookshop or dealer, it wasn’t until I did this exercise I realized the two were connected. 
I’ve heard the dock strike theory but this wouldn’t have stopped them being printed - they’d have had to know three months in advance for that to happen wouldn’t they?

Albert and Marwood got me curious as to patterns in the numbering so I’ve mapped Marvel T&P stamps from first monthly occurrence, November 1964, to last possible date October 1971. Observations;

• Pre-printed UKPV were the method of choice for pricing Marvels, the earliest known distributed marvel comic, Journey Into Mystery #58 dated May 1960, is pre-printed 9d and all subsequent distributed Marvels are also UKPV for the next few years.

• Pre-printed UKPV ceased later end of 1964. Some titles had their last UKPV in September 1964, whilst others had last UKPV in October or November 1964.

• T&P stamps do appear on a few Marvels prior to September 1964 but I have not found any prior to January 1964 (aside from annuals). These are so few and far between I am unable to determine any pattern.

• Depending on when their last UKPV was, there was a nine or ten month period when no UKPV Marvels were printed. During this period Oct/Nov/Dec 1964 - Jul/Aug 1965 all Marvels distributed in UK were T&P stamped. I can see no discernable pattern other than a lot of 6’s in early few months, followed by a lot of 2’s followed by a lot of 4’s. e.g Strange Tales from December 1964 = 6,6,8,8,2,3,4,4,2. The stamping is not random as most issues have the same number and there is some similarity across titles each month, Spider-man for the same period = 6,not found,8,8,2,3,4,4,4. However for example Spider-man #24 May 1965 I have found stamped 1, 2 and 3. The linear progression seen in early DCs does not hold up.

• August/September 1965 UKPV Marvels recommenced until Sep/Oct/Nov 1966 depending on title. I have found very few T&P stamps for this period of UKPV.

• Most titles had a one or two month gap between Oct and Dec 1966. I have found no T&P stamps for this period however this stamp appears quite a lot during this short period and not very often outside it; far too often to be a local or retailer stamp. Could it be that this was merely a SNAFU at printers in USA who forgot to print UKPVs and stamped them instead or perhaps T&P wanting to be incognito?

• UKPVs recommenced Dec 66/Jan 67, however this period of UKPVs was short lived with titles having last UKPV in Oct or Nov 1967. I have found few T&P stamps during this period.

• Marvels began stamping again in Nov or Dec 1967 until March 1969. Stamp numbers in this period again have no discernible pattern. Lots of 4’s – Daredevil 40 to 47 all appear as 4. Spiderman sequence Dec 67 to March 1969 = 9,6,8,9,9,4,4,7,4,4,4,3,4,7,2,4 although some of these do appear with different numbers. Thor 148 (Jan 1968) I have found numbered 3,6,7 and 9 – how about a collecting goal of getting a particular issue with all nine T&P numbers?

• In April 1969 UKPVs restarted yet again however unlike previous periods of UKPVs there is an abundance of stamped copies also. Why is this – were there reduced numbers of UKPVs which meant T&P needed to fill the gap with stamped cents copies, had demand increased to the extent that T&P needed more supply, had World Distributors taken over distribution of UKPVs and T&P stamps were in competition? (I can’t find when World Distributors took over from Thorpe and Porter).

• For around 6 months normal numbering continues albeit in a rather random way, then all stamps become number 3. For one month, August 1970, the stamp becomes “5p/ 1/-“ and thereafter all stamps are T&P – ampersand rather than a number. The last stamp I can find is July 1971. From here on in Marvels are either UKPV or they are non-distributed – no more stamps.

• I found no triangular sale stamps but one full price T&P sticker.

·         

Conclusions/speculations;
•    Marvels were not remainders. They were UKPV from day one of distribution so obviously T&P must have ordered their quota before the comics were even printed.
•    Although there is evidence of batch stamping, various titles having the same number for any given month, there is no evidence that the stamps had any linear pattern. The stamps were purely used for pricing.
•    The numbers on many are illegible supporting theory stamps were purely used for pricing.
•    The primary use of UKPV, lack of linear numbering when stamps were used, absence of sale triangles suggests Marvels were treated differently to other companies.

18 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

How you getting on Gary? If Albert doesn't get his fix soon he'll eat his cap. And Kevin's wife is out of the picture until Wednesday. No pressure, but it's on you if the cap goes 

I’ve had a sweep of most Marvel main titles, couple to go, I’ll send you spreadsheet as is in next day or two, quite a few issues I haven’t found as yet but I think there’s enough to draw some conclusions;  Marvel’s default was UKPV, stamps were used to fill gaps, some evidence of batch stamping but batches weren’t linear, stamp numbers were mostly superfluous. When you see it you may see some patterns I can’t. Be in touch soon.  

When Marvel enter the fray of stamping in mid 60s the linear progression of numbers seems to be lost although there are some signs, and you do see the same number repeating across titles for a given month. By the latter 60s Marvels are virtually all number 3, then all T&P (no number). Is this Marvel only or do other companies follow same pattern?

I’ll post more and send Marwood spreadsheet when I’ve populated a few more titles. 
 

First Marvels are as per Marwood’s summary on page three of this topic;

The earliest known distributed Thorpe and Porter comic is Journey Into Mystery #58 dated May 1960 and is pre-printed 9d. Indeed T&P early distribution were all UKPV, stamps didn’t appear until 1962 and 1963 annuals and not regularly on monthly comics until November 1964 when there was a pause in UKPV issues. I am yet to find a stamp for October 1964, the first month with no UKPV. I have found a few earlier examples of T&P stamped Marvels but nothing (apart from annuals) before 1964 which suggests these were probably distributed months after release or possibly caught up with another company’s remainders.

The earliest known distributed L Miller comic is Gunsmoke Western #58 dated May 1960 which has a stamp and printed 9d UK cover price.

I would speculate that there are no T&Ps before May 1960, they did not start stamping Marvels for a couple of years and the extensive research by Marwood and Duncan McAlpine for his guide hasn’t unearthed any earlier UKPV so I very much doubt any exist. I suppose there is a possibility of kid Colt 89 or Gunsmoke western 57 (March 1960) or Two Gun Kid 53 (April 1960) turning up as Millers but these issues even as cents are so scarce in UK Millers might never be found even if they do exist.

Albert and Marwood got me curious as to patterns in the numbering so I’ve started to populate a template of all Marvel T&P stamps from first monthly occurrence, November 1964, to last possible date October 1971 (although I am yet to find a stamp later than July 1971). I’ll post a summary shortly.

4 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

You got any late 59 DC's Gary?

No sorry Marvel only. As my Marvel collection has grown (16,000+) and spread into memorabillia other things have had to give - Fanzines (music and comics) and DCs went early doors, then vinyl record collection. I need a bigger house but would have to sell comics to afford it but then I wouldn’t need the bigger house. 

I’ve been collating database of all stamped Marvel’s, I’ll summarize shortly and send table when it’s more fully populated. There won’t be any advance on first distribution from what Marwood posted on page 3. when stamping starts seems completely random but need to look further to see if there are patterns across months and later on stamps are virtually all number 3s. 

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Category:1959,_September
 

heres another data base set for September 1959. Can select any month/year. 

Dr strangelove was released 29 January 1964 so that ages the photo - now need to identify some comics. 

Is this one of yours Marwood? Unstamped cents issue so someone appears to have drawn a T&P stamp on it.

I’ve drawn up a template to populate for Marvels. Thought I’d start with the stamped issues I have, first impression is that a very large proportion are illegible especially the early ones with the number in black half circle. I have six early avengers stamped - only one I can read number. If someone was hoping to do some administrative task based on the numbers it wouldn’t be easy. 
I’ll let you know when it’s populated enough to make some conclusions/assumptions. 

Second impression - why couldn't Popular Book Centre stamp books just once? Mine, including X-Men #1, all have at least three stamps and sometimes four.

I’m intrigued as to what the numbers signify so going to have a go at mapping Marvels main titles, there is only a 10 year window before the number disappeared from T&P stamp. I’ve made a very brief start and doesn’t look too promising, however when get more examples may see a pattern. 
I had a thought that these may be remainder copies that sat in US warehouse and never made it to retailers, the comics would still be bundled so different companies (and possibly different titles within each company) would be kept separate so would not necessarily align with each other. 

On 10/11/2020 at 8:08 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm sure geography has a lot to do with it.

Obviously T&P distribution didn’t reach as far as Malaya

11 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

If comics and magazines followed the same date - as Google suggests they did - then the actual UK stamping would have had to have started from June 1959 at the earliest to be legal. Wouldn't it?

From “Paperbacks Pulp & Comics Collector”

This would make it possible for T&P stamp on books from 1955ish and comics from 1957ish. All depends on when those import restrictions were lifted, I’ve googled but can’t find anything, perhaps a letter to Board of Trade may reveal answer. 
 

2 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Maybe a 1 digit stamp was cheaper than a 2 digit one. You do not need numbers in any case. A,B,C,D would do the job just as well as 1,2, 3, 4. The numbers are just an indicator of when the item was processed at T & P's premises, and has no connection with the calendar.

I’m starting to agree with Albert that the stamp number relates to shipping dates - Extensive research of the two Daredevil issues I want to upgrade, 7 and 8, fits the pattern exactly all 7s are stamped 2 and all 8s (2 months later) are stamped 4. other early DDs seem to fit the pattern also. I’ll have a more extensive search of more Marvels titles.  However i remain unconvinced it’s for SOR - were US comics SOR? By 1980 (post T&P I know) I was buying a full set of distributed Marvels from newsagent at 12p cover price and a month later I bought everything he hadn’t sold for 6p so he evidently wasn’t getting SOR or my 6p was more than he was paying wholesale and would get in return. 
As to UKPV I’d like to know did Marvel or T&P decide what issues would be distributed? The haphazard nature makes me think Marvel, if T&P had final say surely we would have had uninterrupted runs of the best sellers? 

22 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Possibly by that time all were SOR, it just seems strange that the Marvels were UKPV almost from the off, but DCs were stamped.

Yes, especially as Marvels at that time were being distributed by DCs owners. 

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

The difference would be not between DC/Marvel/Charton, but between stamped and unstamped.

stamped = SOR, unstamped = non-SOR.

 

You may be right and things may have changed later on, but pick on Daredevil 72 (a comic I recall buying “new” in 1973) it exists as a UKPV and cents with a T&P stamp - seems complicated that one would be SOR and one not. Would a newsagent be bothered to look?

21 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

 

Here is a thought - what if the early Marvels were not SOR?

If no returns would be entertained, no need to stamp expiry dates.

That could explain why the early imported Marvels are so scarce compared to DC.

If T & P had to pay more for the Marvels, printed to their own specifications with a pence cover price, than they did for the remaindered DCs, they would order less, and also need to make sure that the increased per item outlay was offset by guarantee that retailers could not return them. Only DC, Charlton, etc would be eligible for a credit.

 

I struggle to see this. I don’t believe the average newsagent would know the difference between Marvel and DC or Charlton so having a system where Marvels were SOR and others were non-returnable would be worth their while - unless all shops were exclusively Marvel or exclusively non-Marvel so they only had one system to work with. And what happened later on when you get Marvel UKPV and T&P stamped Versions of the same issue?

33 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

October 1953 magazine distributed by T & P, the earliest I have found so far, but printed in England and with no stamp.

Mr Thorpe and Mr Porter are certainly men of mystery. Even Mr Google is struggling.

Companies House no help, as their public records do not go back far enough.

I have checked for trademarks for Thorpe & Porter, T & P and Strato Publications as far back as 1876, but nothing is showing.

Earliest stamp will probably be in the 1958/59 range, I feel but will carry on hunting.

My reading shows Fred Thorpe bought a chain of newsagents owned by Porter group just after the end of WW2 so Thorpe & Porter came to be around 1946. However there was a post war ban on importing books/comics so they reprinted American comics in Britain so these wouldn’t have been stamped being home produced. In mid 50’s ban was lifted on non fiction books and ban on fiction comics lifted a few years later. So earliest possible stamp existed on books around 1955 onwards and on comics 1957/58 onwards. 

7 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Does this mean I wonder that there were only 9 annual shipments? Why else have that number? 

Perhaps simply the stamps had a roller or interchangeable block which had space for only one digit?

21 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Some solicitations were clearly mistakes (a few outlined in my UKPV thread where it's clear they picked the wrong issue). And some gaps are due to clashes with locally produced reprint titles.

By then (around August 1971 cover dated comics) World Distributors had taken over from T&P distributing Marvels. By 1973 when I started collecting (I lived in Gloucester) you could find WD UKPV 6p as well as old T&P 5p stamped and UKPV 1/-  but everything was completely random.  

I never once saw the triangle stamp nor any remaindered logo torn off issues. 

5 minutes ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Maybe Patsy Walker burnt their fingers and they said never again. Ditto My Girl Pearl.

Possibly but if they had ordered a pence print run it would have been many months before they knew sales - a tester perhaps?

I have many sleepless nights contemplating UK distribution, lots of questions, some answers but these seem to lead to other questions.

Why do T&P stamped cents and UKPV of the same issues exist? As I understand it T&P started distribution of US comics with issues remaindered In the US which he could buy below wholesale prices because they would otherwise be pulped. Later struck a deal to have them printed at source with UK price to save the stamping process. If T&P wanted prices preprinted And eliminate stamping it suggests that the stamp and its number was of no importance does it not?
Does it mean that T&P got an equally good deal on purchasing pence preprinted issues as he did on buying the remaindered issues? If not why didn’t they just stick to stamping them?  If T&P did get a good deal on preprinted and had their print run order for UKPV why would they then buy a batch of cents issues on top and stamp them? Couldn’t they have just ordered a bigger print run?

if T&P could order a set amount of pence copies on the print run why is existence of pence copies so random? Wouldn’t they have just asked for a set number each month of the best sellers say 10,000 every month of Spider-Man and FF etc. I can understand a break for dock strike but why do some titles have numerous pence gaps (Or did we have lots of dock strikes in 60/70s)? Why do odd issues appear, I don’t see T&P asking for a print run of Patsy Walker for one issue, never before or never again. Why does one issue of Patsy Walker exist in pence?

6 hours ago, Kevin.J said:

Weird, the feedback says it was £120

The listing showed best offer accepted so I assume this was an auction with £20 start and a best offer function, ie higher than starting point, whereby seller ends auction if he gets a good offer. Assume during auction he got offer for £120 and accepted it. Someone got a bargain.
It’s comics like this making me seriously considering selling some of my comics. My WWBN, Eternals, she-hulk 1, spider woman 1, black panther etc etc just sat in loft and never see light of day. They mean little to me other than being a completest. They were bought for pennies and seems logical to sell the prices they are now fetching.