LordRahl

This. +1 +1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now? +1 Blue. Purple. Blue. Purple. That's going to be my new screen name... I think CGC is going dark on this and will wait for it to go away. And by the vigorous defenders of CGCs grading who see this as an isolated, one-in-a-million-what's-the-big-deal kind of thing...it's obvious there are dealers who don't want change. They profit from playing the resub game. For them, CGC is purr-fect-o. Most people buy the number (eBay), while they buy the book, resub, and voila, the number changes. That statement is funny to me as IMO most of the people playing that game aren't dealers. They're the average Joe collector like Dan (the OP). I know anti-CGC people keep harping about how dealers profit so much from CGC etc and miss the fact that it's really the average guy that profits the most from CGC.

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update. +1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something. No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh why "remove it from the market"? because it's been blue, purple, then blue again? taking it away won't change the fact that resto detection is basically a coinflip now. I doubt it's a "coin flip" but it's no secret that it's never been a 100% certainty. I was much more concerned that they didn't catch color touch on the other book than that they missed trimming on the JIM. Theoretically, CT should be a lot easier to ID.

Dan also said the buyer didnt believe that it was trimmed (as he didnt), knew that it had previously been blue, so subbed it again. Many people would do the same. And who can blame the buyer for not appearing, when CGC has an army of mindless zealots ready to attack should he appear. Much as CGC has an army of mindless pitchfork wielding critics who can't see the forest for the trees? See what I did there?

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update. +1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something. No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh I knew I should have saved my 20,000 th post for a better moment. I have to agree here that resubbing immediately makes no sense whatsoever..... You are right, it makes no sense in the context of "this is for my personal permanent collection".

The poor unsuspecting collectors. It's a good thing that people didn't trim and restore books before the CGC came around or there would have been a lot of poor unsuspecting collectors then too with absolutely no idea that their books were restored and no one they could pay to give them a somewhat expert opinion either.

16,253 to be exact

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update. +1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something. No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested? Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless. I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really? Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981. You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI. Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct? I have not done this but I have spent years using a microscope and know the power in determining things. Tiny tool marks invisible to the naked eye can match a tool to something it was used on. The trimmed edge would age at the same rate but the surrounding paper would have had a head start and this could possibly be determined-that a piece of paper was cut years after the rest of the paper had been produced and bound. Soooo, conjecture on your part. Perhaps somewhat educated conjecture but conjecture all the same.

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested? Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless. I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really? Yes because paper fibers yellow from the outside in. Therefore newer trimmed paper will have fiber ends that are lighter than untrimmed. Also, over time, the micro fibers get worn. Newly trimmed paper will have a clean cut. If one edge is suspected you could compare yellowing. If all three edges were trimmed and the paper color is different from the cut ends to the nearby fibers, that would be telling. Fiber areas exposed to the air in 1974 will look different than fiber areas exposed in 1981. You are talking a good game but since I don't know you nor your level of expertise in the subject, forgive me if I think you're full of Have you tried this to determine that in fact it is true? Or did you just see it on CSI. Also, if the whole edge were trimmed, it would age at the same rate correct?

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested? Better tell the FBI that microscopic paper analysis is pointless. I can't believe I'm actually going to take the time to do this Books (all books) get trimmed at the printer. Yes, every Blue label comic in existance is trimmed. Most were trimmed a long time ago. Let's take a mid 70's book for instance. Trimmed at the printer in 1974. Purchased by some collector who reads it a couple times and puts it away. Bought by a dealer in 1981. Dealer decides he can get more money for it if he trims off that unsightly top edge that got roughed up some by the kid. Let's assume it was a well done trim job. You think a stereomicroscope is going to be able to help you tell the difference between the trim that happened in 1974 and the one that happened in 1981? With 30+ years of paper aging that have happened in between? Really?

Right, how could I have missed that. On a side note, I have this really great bridge for sale. You interested?

Common knowledge.....or common misconception? Common sense? The more one practices something, generally speaking, the better one gets at whatever that is. If you're missing trimming....you have no idea you're missing trimming. Until it comes to light, like the Ewert books. I can't imagine that didn't teach them something about trimming detection.

Common knowledge.....or common misconception? Common sense? The more one practices something, generally speaking, the better one gets at whatever that is.

The buyer is a boardie. Why is he not on here speaking for himself? What was and was not said between him and CGC would be a lot more credible coming from him then it is coming secondhand from Dan.

And if they tell you, that does what exactly? There is no way to verify if what they tell you is right or a bunch of BS.

Thanks for the response. Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day? I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now. EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day. The bolded part may not be accurate. You are making an assumption based on heresay. I didn't make the same assumption. I assumed that he would have had their resto experts look at it for review, not EVERYONE.

Thanks for the response. Can you tell us how you came to the conclusion it is trimmed this time? Did you get the book back from the buyer and re-inspect it? Or did you just go with what you remembered from the last time you inspected it for Spider-Dan? If so, then why couldn't anyone remember this rare, pricey book just weeks after a bunch of hoopla surrounded it? (Remember, EVERYONE inspected it and determined it was trimmed for Spider-Dan). So how could NO ONE possibly remember this book just several weeks later when it was brought it for a re-sub? Can you tell us who the re-subber was? Can you tell us if the same graders and resto experts looked at it during the walk through? Who was on duty that day? I know it's a lot of questions, but we all have a lot of doubts about CGC right now. EDIT: Also, I hope you (CGC) didn't wait till almost 5pm to post a response, on purpose. It gives one the impression that you did it to avoid responding to any follow up questions because everyone has gone home for the day. My guess here is that when Harshen told Dan that everyone with any credibility in the facility said it was trimmed, he was refering to those within the facility that specialize in resto detection, not their normal graders. So he probably showed it to Paul and Matt, since those would be the 2 people best suited to identify resto. Why would he show it to ALL of their graders? Upon resub, if the graders didn't catch any red flags, it was probably not looked at by Matt, Paul or Harshen again. Unless one of them looks at EVERY book, which I don't know if it is the case.

Good statement. I'm glad you are admitting to making a mistake as opposed to trying to deflect.

I haven't heard a peep I don't really expect to I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you. CGC is in discussions with the buyer I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed... No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss. I don't understand that rationale. He buys a book, pays for a service and hopes for a grade uptick, which is subjective. Restoration detection is NOT subjective. It's either restored or it's not. Isn't there something wrong with that? He IS paying for their service. Either it's restored or it isn't. That may be true. However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming. That should not be news to anyone, least of all someone whose very business model is resubbing and flipping books. Either he should have done more homework and been aware of this or he did do the homework, was aware of this and still made a concious decision that the rewards outweighed the risks. BTW, my guess is the latter is true.

So it's 4PM East Coast time and nothin' yet from CGC in the way of a statement. It may not yet be resolved but any update would be better than no update. Get your together folks. As someone that would be considered "pro-CGC", my opinion is your silence in this matter is more damaging than coming out and admitting you screwed up.

Whoops, I've had sigs turned off for so long that I didn't notice. Thanks (thumbs u

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book. THEY BETTER NOT. I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won. If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded. At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this! That the book was previously means squat. The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade?????????? But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here? If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled. The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there? If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers. Going this route treats the customer like a criminal and exposes the fact that CGC cannot catch all restoration despite their claims. I don't want CGC chemically treating my books just to make their life easier. Can you point me to where they claim that they can catch all resto?

I haven't heard a peep I don't really expect to I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you. CGC is in discussions with the buyer I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed... No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss.

Whose fault is that? If didnt have enough manpower on sight then thats a screwup on their part. The owner of the book is under no legal obligation to send the book back to help CGC cover up their mistake.. CGC has to survive the brunt of this on their own. Can someone post a full schedule of when CGC will be doing on-site grading? So just out of curiousity. Now that you "have lost ALL confidence in CGC graded books"; you will stop buying them, resubbing them and reselling them, correct? Incorrect. Until a better company comes along....... I'm shocked... shocked I tell ya

This whole hobby is making me sick. It isn't the hobby. It is the people in the hobby, including many that frequent these boards. If I were a high grade collector, I would be looking for something else to fill my collecting jones. Why isolate to high grade collectors? The book being talked about in this very thread is not high grade. You think that because you collect low/mid grade, you are exempt from the sheisters in this hobby? Good luck with that.