kent allard

On 9/3/2024 at 10:30 AM, waaaghboss said:

I just think people will grade anything regardless of value, based in countless worthless comics I've seen.  I see endless new collectors with common 90s drek asking if it should be stabbed, as they're convinced somehow that it's the only way to preserve something.

Alas, I fear it may come down to something as prosaic and sad as that ... W.C. Fields was right. 

                                                                                                                      brain fart ... meant P.T. Barnum

On 9/3/2024 at 8:58 AM, Robot Man said:

Now, we have Pulp collectors drinking the Kool-Aide. 

Bingo!

That's what I'm concerned with.  Has the contagion spread, or is being helped along?  I've got my tin-foil hat securely in place ...

On 9/2/2024 at 5:59 PM, Darwination said:

The logic is that I doubt any one would pay the 35 dollar BP for any one of those pulps individually but if you get 4 for the single BP you are more likely to do it.  If you think that lot is worth the minimum 35 in the first place...

By sticking two, three or four of these undesirables together it at least eases the hurdle of the BP for the buyer.

Exactly!

For the sake of argument, let's say they get a volume discount, or preferred pricing - whatever you want to call it - of $5 a slab.  For $20 you can slab 4 pieces of dreck that no one would bid on individually and generate $29.  I understand the business logic of that from the vantage point of HA.  But they could just as well bundle them as a lot of unslabbed pulps and people would bid on it too.  I win the lot - yay!  What am I going to do with 4 slabbed pieces of dreck whose only value is as reader copies - break them out?  Why slab them to begin with?  Slabbing imputes to them a value they don't have and is in fact counterproductive - to the customer.  Hence my suspicions that something is at play here.

Of course it could be just newbies slabbing dreck and HA benevolently bundling them into a lot so they can be sold and provide *SOME* return for the clueless.  @Ryan. and @OtherEric had credible hypotheses.

I have no stake in it either way.  Just floating the suspicions to see what others think.  Doesn't seem like anyone else shares them.  That's cool.

On 9/2/2024 at 9:44 AM, Darwination said:

The wonkiness I refer to is slabbing pulps worth less than the cost of grading.  Or listing these at auction when they remain under the value of the BP.  There's been so much of this going on that HA including some of these slabbed pulps in groups like this more often the last few weeks is at least an indication they realize the books aren't at BP value when listed singly.

The lot here 10 years ago was a 10 dollar lot for all 4 on eBay.  Right now it's a 20 dollar lot for all four (unless there's a particularly notable bit of fiction in one of them).  That might be a slight exaggeration but probably not.

CGC has no objection to grading whatever (as shown by the modern dreck yahoos will send in), but I don't think the auction house much to gain.  The prestige of the auction decreases the more junk included, and while that BP does look high to us, I assume it's at least some way representative of their cost in taking scans, putting up an auction description, hosting a live auction, etc. - that's just to say you'd think they'd much prefer to be dealing in more valuable goods.

I don't understand the bundling lot logic.  Is it keeping the overall number of lots down to something more reasonable?  Is hit or miss depending on who is organizing the auction lots?  

I've gotten some really good deals when HA created a bundled lot of things that they could have easily been split into multiple lots.  Other times I have been forced to bid on multiple mid-value items (< $145) in a run that each trigger the BP minimum, and I feel screwed.  This has been happening in the past few auctions where I have won slabbed pulps for <$20 and am dismayed to see I am spending more on the BP then the item itself.  OK, that can happen in an auction.  But I feel for the consignor, especially when they have incurred the cost of slabbing.

I don't think HA is concerned about their prestige in this area.  They are solidly ensconced, and given the quality of the material they bring to market, rightly so.  This is gravy.  My concern is that HA might be the one submitting this dross for slabbing because they have a volume discount or 'understanding' with CGC.  It is a lot more impressive to offer a bundle of slabbed pulps than unslabbed pulps.  If it costs them $5 * 4 = $20 to slab the lot, I can see that being a considered reasonable strategic investment to shape a perception.

I don't know.  @Ryan. and @OtherEric  have plausible hypotheses, but something about the current state of things is causing my spidey sense to tingle.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid.  I'll go back to my bedroom in the basement now, but don't say nobody warned you all  ...

On 9/2/2024 at 10:13 AM, OtherEric said:

Is it possible people sent in some cheap books so they could see some of the results for themselves, including additional damage to the books caused by slabbing, and then were just trying to recover their money once they had the info they needed?

Not saying that makes a lot of sense, but it's the only scenario that easily comes to mind.

No, that's actually something I could see.  Before committing pulps of value, see what the results look like, then dump them on HA to recoup some of the costs.

Bears consideration as I keep my eyes on how things develop.

On 9/2/2024 at 4:02 PM, Ryan. said:

Another possibility, which admittedly isn't as fun to consider as a grand conspiracy between CGC and HA to make dozens of dollars, is that the submitter sent a large stack of pulps in for grading and just tossed some low graders in the pile without really thinking about it. I've been guilty of that. Then just sent them on to HA in the same box as higher value slabs just to get rid of them.

Now that is a plausible hypothesis.

In defense of the conspiracy theory, one might theorize a focus on the long game.  I agree that this is chump change now.  What I'm suspicious of is trying to establish a behavior pattern of slabbing everything 'otherwise you won't be able to sell it'.

I'm not pushing anything here.  Just a bit suspicious.

On 9/2/2024 at 1:29 PM, Robot Man said:

Don’t worry about it Marty. Post anything you want. It’s an honor to see all your OO ten centers! 

Ditto!

Thanks very much @adamstrange and @bronze johnny for your trenchant comments.  This is fascinating!

I'm anxious to see where it goes and would very much like to see a cover gallery of pre/post era nominations, either here or split off in a dedicated thread.

Great idea for a thread @Coverdeath !

On 9/2/2024 at 8:50 AM, Coverdeath said:

This banner were used for many titles, the first I think of is JLA 

I remember when they introduced that go-go racing banner.  Seemed stupid to me as a kid.  Still don't understand what they were trying to accomplish with it.

On 9/2/2024 at 6:52 AM, grendel013 said:

With Action Comics, there seems to be a little back and forth. Issue 332 is the last issue without the checkered racing banner. Jan 1966.

Issue 333 is the first with the checkered banner but still feels GA.

The next few still feel GA but then there is issue 340. First appearance of Parasite. Definitely SA now. But not until Aug 1966.

Curious.  What is so definitively SA about #340 vs #339.

For Batman there was the costume change and the art.  What changed here?  Was it Superman being under attack by an individual rival who could threaten him?  His expression is one of fear/vulnerability.  Not a big fan of Superman, but I don't recall seeing this type of emotion expressed in earlier covers.

On 9/1/2024 at 3:29 PM, grendel013 said:

I see a distinct cut off with Batman 163 and 164. The addition of the yellow oval around the bat. Same cover artist but looks like a very different Batman. May to June 1964.

spot on for Batman!

Who can provide similar transition covers for others?

On 9/2/2024 at 1:46 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

And that masked worm in Hitler's ear is priceless!   

Shades of Khan???

I'm partial to the femurs used as chair legs.  Wild.  It's got easter eggs - sort of a Bill Elder vibe, not just the usual Schomburg riot of action.

On 9/2/2024 at 1:46 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Thanks! WWII symbolism is a fascinating area; there's a lot of variety. You're right about Frankenstein bound in the black coupe bringing up the rear; that was a clever Jack Binder composition. The most symbolic aspect of the cover is the description of values and Prize heroes prepared to do their part in the coming war; the parade celebrates that. MM #46 is difficult to categorize. It's the whole zombie underground thing with Hitler leading a dead legion and even deader ideology. The cover's far from subtle, but more symbolism than war combat. ...And that masked worm in Hitler's ear is priceless!   

BTW, here's another symbolic cover from the summer of '42, but a bedsheet pulp instead of a comic... 

S&S did this cover across a whole range of their pulps in July of '42

https://pulpmags.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/street-smith-goes-to-war-patriotic-pulps-of-july-1942/

It may be patriotic, but I can't see it as being very creative.

Yeah, MM #46 is a cool cover but too complicated and busy for my tastes to be considered iconic.  Earlier in the thread I mentioned that what I'm looking for the visceral gut-punch that happens in the first 2 seconds, not the layered examination that needs to go on in a Schomburg cover.   Raboy was a master of clean composition.  His CM Jr and Green Lama covers really nail it.  Schomburg is an iconic artist, but in this regard I personally find him lacking.  He just *overwhelms* you    

And that's one collector's opinion (with an affectionate nod to the iconic George Putnam) 

On 9/1/2024 at 6:47 PM, Point Five said:

No, there's no grand conspiracy here. It's probably newbie sellers who are sending a pile of pulp inventory to CGC/HA and think they'll turn a profit. Some confusion about the pulp grading scale may be in the mix too (and pulps have a LOT more pages to count then comics so that step is likely getting skipped). They'll take their lumps and move on, as we all have at some point. No big deal IMO. 

 

Fair.  I just want some perspective from veterans.

On 9/1/2024 at 8:22 PM, Darwination said:

I don't see how this wonkiness is in anybody's interest, honestly.

The OP's example has a purple .5 with some glue that in my estimation is at least better off than the .5 blue with a missing back cover or the other .5 with the wrong back cover taped on.  The "2.5" has big chips out and a ton of creasing and tears.  That's a reader lot of very common pulps and should be enjoyed as such and nowhere near a Sunday night auction

Hammer price = $84

 

I'm not sure what to make of your comment about wonkiness.  I'm assuming you are dismissing the entire topic as being counterproductive to consider.

You want reader copies - fine.  You're willing to pay $20+ a pulp - fine.  Why slab them if they are just reader copies?  HA is taking $29 off the top, leaving $55 for the consignor, before consignment fees.  That's probably no more than $12 - $13 return per pulp, exclusive of slabbing costs.  Let's just say there were no shipping costs to slab - consignor is still way in the red.  Who is making the money here?  CGC and HA.

I'm sure the consignor would net more putting them on MCS as unslabbed reader copies.  Heck, throwing them away is better than putting them on HA, at least you don't LOSE money.  Makes NO sense to me.

The point of the thread is to see if anyone else smells a rat - I don't understand why these are being graded and I'm suspicious we are being played.  Is it as banal as clueless newbies or is there something else going on?  Sounds like you are in the former group.  I leaning more and more to being in the latter.

I noticed those as well, but a .5 PLOD?  It's not like this is an 08/1928 copy of Amazing Stories.

These are not the only examples.  Previous auctions have also had some questionable offerings, but ya gotta draw the line somewhere.  This seems to be a trend, not a one-off.

I'm a bit of a suspicious type.  I have personally experienced multiple instances of what strongly seems to me to be AI-based shill bidding on certain items I was chasing.  No accusations, just saying.  CGC's reputation is a bit tarnished recently.  The questionable 9.8 grades, suspicious grading, etc ...   No fires, just a lot of smoke.  With the tight relationship between HA and CGC, I can't help wondering if is it mindless/clueless collector newbies who have bought into the slabbing-mania and trying to jump on the next big wave, or something a bit more sinister (muahahaha!).

I'm not above buying a slabbed pulp.  I see the value of it for me as a buyer, but I'm concerned that sellers are being led to the slaughter and the overall effect this will have on COLLECTING.  Do we really want to allow pulps to become commoditized the way comics have?

Throwing it out there ... how do people feel about this?

Is CGC behind this, to prime the pump and create a market?  Is HA in an incestuous relationship with CGC, slabbiing these for $5 each?

What are people thinking to slab this kind of stuff?  Consignors must be delusional in their expectations. Sell on MCS as a raw!  At least you'll make $5 or $10.

I can't see anyone benefiting from this but CGC (slabbing fees) and HA (outrageous $29 minimum BP).

On 3/30/2019 at 7:20 AM, lbcolefan said:

Not a barn burner and not one I especially cared for at the time.  I was dipping my toes back into collecting, it was fairly high-grade, and I considered it relatively cheap at the time.

54 graded copies; 5 in grade, 6 above. 

It's grown on me.

On 9/1/2024 at 8:07 AM, Jayman said:

I want first dibs on your under-copy! 

On 8/31/2024 at 5:05 PM, buttock said:

2nd or 3rd time I've requoted this:

1.  Ages don't necessarily start and stop consecutively.  i.e. it's not the case that the GA stops on 12/31 and SA starts on 1/1.  I think there are a few cases where the start is obvious (Action 1, Showcase 4), but more where an age evolved slowly, both beginning and end.  So to try to define them with an absolute date or issue is impossible.  

2.  Ages don't apply across the board for publishers, titles, or characters.  Showcase 4 in 1956 is obviously silver age, but Batman from the same month still feels like the doofy 50s Batman rather than the one that changed in 1964.  You can say that the GA ended with WW2, but I think the later All Stars, Flash, Superman, Batman, etc., still feel very GA.  Timely and Nedor, on the other hand had clear changes as the war ended since their covers were almost exclusively war-related.  So a 1947 DC might seem very GA, but a 1947 Timely doesn't.  Similarly the SA is very different for DC vs. Marvel.  The Silver Age begins with Showcase 4 in 1956, but for Marvel it doesn't really start until FF 1 in 1961.  Therefore a 1957 Marvel (which would be Atlas at the time) isn't viewed as SA, while a 1957 DC might be SA.  Further, Showcase 4, while being clearly the start of the SA, doesn't mean that all DCs after Showcase 4 are SA.  Is All Star Western 89 not SA, while 91 is SA?  No, it took some time for the whole comic book field to evolve into the SA.    

3. The definitions of an 'age' aren't consistent.  GA and SA conventionally refer to superhero comics.  The Golden Age started with Action 1 and the Silver Age started with Showcase 4.  Those terms are used broadly in society, but there aren't societal equivalents for Bronze, Copper, etc.  Those terms then followed to refer more to eras than actual events, which is why there is so much debate over when the BA started.  There isn't a singular book like Action 1 or Showcase 4 that defined the change, nor was there a tapering out of the preceding era to make such a singular book stand out.  In this case it's more that things shifted over time with things like GL 76, the Spidey drug books, etc., that were reflective of a societal shift rather than an event in the history of comic publishing.  So GA and SA refer to one type of change, while BA refers to another and CA yet another.  Then throw in things like "atomic era", "pre-code", "pre-hero Marvel", etc., and things get really confusing because you're referring to different framing points in different genres, publishers, titles, and characters (e.g. nobody talks about pre-code Disney).  

Brilliant! 

Of course, it makes life more difficult if one must evaluate and keep track of these different subtle factors.  In the trade-off between precision and convenience, it is often convenience that carries the day.

You say 'requoted' - from where?  Are you quoting yourself, or someone else?

On 8/31/2024 at 12:53 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Just came across this thread! It's a great idea ...not sure how I overlooked it... and there have been some awesome covers presented. 

This may be the most subtle WWII patriotically symbolic cover, coming out less than a month after we entered the war in '42... 

But iconic covers ...umm covers a lot of ground. For purely symbolic WWII depictions these Quality books are giants... 

 

...this being the more obvious Axis engaging U.S. war representation...

That said, the most iconic WWII books (IMO) depict Hitler being humiliated in some fashion, ...and my personal favorite has gotta be MM #46! 

Thanks for joining the party @Cat-Man_America

My original idea in starting this thread was to focus on the use of symbolism in WWII covers, that have gone on to become iconic.  There are scores of neat covers, and some really nice action-type covers, but I was hoping to get exposed to the more 'artsy' ones where the emphasis was on conveying ideas (most often patriotic ones) through symbolism.  @*paull*'s Master #27 is a masterpiece of simplicity.  Raboy has quite a few other excellent covers in this regard.

While MM #46 is a GREAT cover (though I'm a bit more partial to Thrilling #41 for humiliation), National #16 resonates much more strongly to me.  Uncle Sam throttling the Nazi death skeleton hits my sweet spot:  nice composition + associating Nazis with death through the use of a (putrid green?) skeleton + Lou Fine art = iconic.

The thread has veered off my original vision for it as people have interpreted symbolic and iconic in their own ways.  Its cool - I'm harvesting lots of nice candidates and I think lots of great stuff is being showcased.  And a good time seems to being had by all

Oh, that Prize cover is fun, but doesn't make *my* list.  It is a subtle statement that I think carried much stronger impact in an era when ticker tape parades actually happened.  What I really find funny is how Frankenstein was relegated to the back of the line.  What, not pretty enough for the lead car?  Didn't sell as many comics?  Is he tied up back there?  Is that black thing behind him a hearse? 

I'm hoping we can actually do a vote at some point to see which ones are the fan favorites

I'm quite familiar with that cartoon, one of my favorite Bugs (and there were a LOT of good ones!).  Thanks for that backstory - didn't know about that.  Will need to do some research.

On 8/29/2024 at 2:09 PM, Robot Man said:

Now that's a confusing symbolic cover - Airboy shooting a Jap through a swastika?

If the artist meant for the orange background and white spotlight to represent the rising sun, he lost me.

On 8/29/2024 at 10:19 AM, fishbone said:

Wowzers !!!!!

I presume the reaction is to the closing price on the auction, not my owning a couple of copies of Impact #1

On 8/28/2024 at 12:07 PM, sfcityduck said:

. The one that blows me away was the original art for Master Race by Krigstein. He convinced Cochran to sell it to him directly instead of putting in the auctions with the other EC art.

If he did, he doesn't have it any more ...

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/bernie-krigstein-impact-1-complete-8-page-story-master-race-original-art-ec-1955-total-8-items-/a/7192-91024.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

The closest I got to that one was downloading the higher resolution images

I do have a couple of copies of the Charlton Impact #1 however ...