JTLarsen

I agree. Every time I post about BB 60 being the actual first appearance of Teen Titans, I'm amazed how many "amen"s I get. Awareness of this issue is out there, and even if BB 54 takes off further, that's just going to raise scrutiny about what actually happens in that issue.

So the ribbon pin worked then?

I think the all-star concert helped. Black Bolt's set was a show-stopper.

I still think DC Comics Presents 26 has some upside but my TTT 44's got pounded with offers this weekend. I'm more partial to BB60 than 54. If I had to choose which is the legit 1st app I think you have to side with the issue where they are referred to by name. This could get interesting.

 

Personally, I think both BA/CA books have a huge upside. As to B&Bs not so much. I think they are where they are and will stay here.

 

good luck finding a HG BB #60.

I agree. Every time I post about BB 60 being the actual first appearance of Teen Titans, I'm amazed how many "amen"s I get. Awareness of this issue is out there, and even if BB 54 takes off further, that's just going to raise scrutiny about what actually happens in that issue. Same thing happened with Our Army at War. Issue 81 kept moving up--which led people to disseminate more and more the actual details of what transpires in each issue, until the info level reached the critical-mass tipping point level of waking people up to the fact that 81 didn't have the guy we know as Sgt. Rock--83 did. If BB 54 gets a lift--for whatever reason--people are going to start questioning things like, "So how exactly does the team form in this issue?" "What's the original membership in this issue?" "Why do they form a team in this issue?" "How do they choose the name 'Teen Titans' in this issue?" And the answer (such as it is in each case) is going to be, "Check BB 60."

I could be wrong, but I think overall the trend in this hobby has been for better info to win out.

[And at this point, someone should move this over to the Silver boards, cuz I'm not sure how to do that!]

Well, you definitely won't see Robin as they're already announced that Nightwing will be the leader. They also name-dropped Cyborg, Starfire and Raven.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

Does that mean that TTT #44 will get even hotter/pricer? (and, "yes", I have one! )

I suspect it also means big things for DC Presents 26 and New Teen Titans 1 (and possibly the Teen Titans Spotlight mini-series issues with individual origins).

With the announcement of the Teen Titans TV show, we should see an increase in those books. Not sure if they're copper age though.

 

Cover your bases by buying the 1st SA App, SA #1, and then the New Teen Titans/Tales of keys.

Which, of course, will reignite the issue of what IS their first appearance. The way I always put it is: If Brave and Bold 54 were their ONLY appearance, would it be considered the first appearance of the Teen Titans? The name is never used and they don't even form a team.

I think it's just a matter of time--maybe now!--until the market does the same thing they did with Our Army at War, and realizes that the ostensible "first appearance" is really just a prototype. And just as Our Army at War 83 is now recognized as, "Oh, yeah, THIS is Sgt. Rock!" it won't be too long until readers--especially now that we have such easy access to reprints--will realize that it's not until Brave and Bold 60 that they say, "Oh, yeah, THIS is the Teen Titans!" (Not to mention the first appearance of Wonder Girl!)

I think you may have lucked out on this one; even if you didn't get the book the way the seller has been acting would make me feel I dodged a bullet.

 

Although I do hope it gets into the hands of somebody who will share it. The thought of hyper-rare books being hoarded rather than preserved and shared absolutely terrifies me. So even if I think you might be better off having not gotten it, I'm not sure the rest of us are.

 

Here's hoping it pops up somewhere soon.

Agreed and then some. If Ewan is right and Derek ends up with this, well, I'm sure he'll share it with Marvel just as he shared the rest of his amazing collection!

Actually, it looks like the under-bidder was Derek - just worked it out

Hi Ewan...what makes you think it was Derek? How could you tell??? (More on your other thoughts, too, at some point. Great info, as always!)

Yeah, I saw that. I'm not so sure they do. They call the winning bid "astonishing." Meaning they think it's a lot. Whether anyone's going to pay considerably more than that if/when it goes up for sale again remains an open question. Only one other person came anywhere close to what I bid. Everyone else dropped out thousands of dollars lower. In retrospect, I think they were right. If it had had a BIN of $4300 on it, would anyone have bought it? I don't think I would've. I got caught up in auction fever, which, of course, could happen again.

But is 26 really, at this point, any more rare than 27? I only know of one copy of 27--Derek Wilson's. Anyone know of another?

I think long term, this auction will help clarify just how rare ALL those early Marvelmans are...and once that happens, the "key"-ness of this particular issue will ease off and prices will level off.

In any case, I don't have the money to fund a career as a comics investor who pays prices like that. What I enjoy and have been good at is finding comics cheaply BEFORE they go nuts, by recognizing their rarity and/or future potential. Marvelman 26, I think, is already at that level.

Could this be a case of a greedy seller thinking he/she might be able to get more for it? It sounds like it, to me.

They were pretty explicit explaining why they reneged on my first offer--they wanted to get more money. I can't blame them for wanting money--that's why I offered $50, less than I was actually willing to pay, after all! I do, however, think it's wrong to renege on an agreement to sell. It would have been one thing to come back and ask whether I'd go above $50, which I would've. But they didn't. Which was their right.

And, of course, I don't know why they then also reneged on the auction result itself. As I said in my original post, they knew and were comfortable with shipping to the U.S. from the get go. It was only a couple days after the auction ended that they cited the fact I'm in the U.S. has a rationale for cancelling the auction. Whether they had another reason, I have no way of knowing.

In any case, when I looked at how many people actually bid as much as I did--only one came anywhere near close. So, given that I'm more interested in Marvelman keys (first appearances, origins, etc...) and this is now much less of a key since we know it exists and that at least one is out there, I was willing to let it go. Will I regret it? Maybe...but even if I ultimately would've made money off it, I always would've felt icky about having to go through all the rigamarole of changing my shipping address or whatever just to get them to honor the auction. So...thanks for your thanks. Glad you found the whole thing at least somewhat interesting!

As I say, I went to about £1,100 but £2,500 is far too much even if I could afford it

 

I doubt very much another no.26 will appear, certainly not anytime soon. no.25 when sold never did - I think there's more than 2 copies (maybe 5) but all these early Miller titles are super, super rare

, that was my feeling about the final price, too. We could only barely afford it, but upon reflection it just seemed to me that long-term, ALL of these early books are going to be seen as super scarce and 26 will gradually recede from its current mythic status. For all I know there's only one issue of 27!

I know you bought a Marvelman Family 1, Ewan. So that makes three of that issue I know of. Derek has a Marvelman 102 (first Kid Marvelman), but the copy I won on ebay years ago is the only other copy I've ever seen of that issue. Likewise Marvelman 65--his origin.

I decided long ago that it was kind of nuts to try to get all 370 issues of Marvelman, so I focused on what I considered keys (including neat covers!) and I guess I just thought that long-term, 26 won't actually be much of one when its scarcity is compared to other early issues. That, and I don't intend on selling my collection until years and years from now and I didn't want to get on the slippery slope of turning around the 26 for whatever margin of profit I could squeeze out of it.

Maybe I was wrong, but I was also glad not to end up paying quite so much money to a seller who had behaved that way. I much prefer the good will and integrity I've experienced dealing with fellow (and rival!) collectors like you, Derek, and others.

Glad you enjoyed the new subject heading! Ha!

Am I bummed that I don't own the legendary-at-least-for-now lost issue of Marvelman?

 

Yeah. But I'll get over it.

 

Kimota!

 

I bet this sale will bring out another copy sooner or later.

Thanks for that. I agree. There are only handfuls known of each of the early issues, but there have also only been a handful of people looking for them. I suspect the growing awareness and maturation of the British comics market will flush out additional copies eventually...at which point there's nothing special about 26 any more...

 

Kimota!

My take is different from yours. I wouldn't look at this book as an investment. As a collector, the drive to own one of everything is immense for me.

 

You have to consider: will you get an opportunity to buy this again? No one knows. We don't live forever. We now know that this copy exists, but how do we know others do? I'd much rather have the book, and have others come onto the market, than not have it, and never have the opportunity to buy it again.

 

The price, if you can afford it, is pretty much irrelevant. It's the only one known.

 

Money comes and goes. It really does. Opportunities like this...

 

Well, hopefully, more copies are shaken from the eaves.

I totally get this and actually agree! It's just that, for me, the rarity isn't actually that different from other issues of Marvelman--which I could get much cheaper. Plus, as you say, we don't know whether others will come to market. Like I said, I was torn, and if I were a super-rich dude, I'd probably have fought it, cuz what do I care? But since I'm not, I'd rather use that money (a) over a muuuuch longer period of time (ha!) but also (b) for many more items of comparable rarity.

That said, I totally appreciate where you're coming from and really appreciate you and everyone else sharing your thoughts on this. Not an easy call either way... but owning the first appearances of Marvelman and Kid Marvelman are nice consolation prizes!

So, some of you were discussing the recent "sale" of the supposedly "lost" issue of Marvelman, Marvelman #26.

As some of you may know, Marvel tried and failed to find it when they reprinted early Marvelman issues--even though they had the help of Derek Wilson, a UK collector who has every issue of Marvelman...except 26.

In fact, the existence of Marvelman 26 had long been debated. Some wondered whether it was ever even printed--though there had been reports of sightings in the distant past.

Then, a little over a week ago, I saw it on ebay. Marvelman 26 auction

I instantly emailed the seller offering a now-laughable $50 for it (even though the listing said he wouldn't ship to the U.S.).

The seller accepted my offer, but said it would cost an additional $16 and change for shipping to the U.S.

I wrote back right away and said no problem, just send me an invoice.

Hours went by. Finally, he wrote back again and said that he had received another offer of 200 pounds and so he had decided not to sell it to me after all, as he had agreed to. He would let the auction run its course.

Now, in the past, I've bid a lot (for me) for issues of Marvelman that I thought were important. I paid more than $500 for Marvelman 25, his first issue. I paid more than $500 for the original art to the cover of Marvelman 114. I've never paid more than $600 for anything, not because I wouldn't, but because I'm not rich so I try to focus my purchases on things that (a) I can afford and (b) have a lot of upward potential..

My prior Marvelman purchases had been several years ago and given that someone else had upped the ante on 26 so early, I suspected this book might go for more than I had ever paid before. So I discussed it with my wife and we figured out a way to use our credit cards to finance a bid in the thousands.

I told myself it was an unbelievably rare book. Plus, I'd get a kick out of lending it to Marvel so they could finally reprint it. It would enhance my Marvelman collection in toto. Et cetera.

So I bid way too much money for it. And to my delight/horror...I won! My wife stood by my exorbitant purchase. A friend reassured me it would be a good investment in the long term. I told myself I could always turn around and sell it to the next-highest bidder if I really had cold feet.

Then, later that day, the seller emailed to say that he needed to wait until Monday to find insurance for shipping to the U.S. that would cost less than 150 pounds. I responded that that was fine with me, since I certainly didn't want to add another 150 pounds on to the purchase price!

And then, Monday morning, I awoke to an email from the seller saying he was canceling the sale. Why? Because I live in the U.S. and the U.S. wasn't listed as one of the places he ships to in the original auction.

And you know what? I was relieved.

For one thing, only one other bidder had come remotely near the final price. So I had to question its real investment value. But also because it had occurred to me that over the years, everything that made Marvelman 26 special is going to fade away now that it's known to exist and it's been found. There's only one known copy of it? Well, that's true of many issues. Hell, there's only two confirmed copies of Marvelman 25. And the difference between 25 and 26 is that as soon as another copy of 26 comes to light...it loses the one thing that made it special. 25 never will. (Will another copy come to light? Well, aside from the fact I have no idea whether this seller has other copies, the fact that ONE came to light does tend to suggest there might still be others out there...the British comics market is still quite behind the U.S. in terms of public awareness, etc., so it strikes me as quite possible there are still any number of post-WWII keepsake collections that grandpa's kids haven't sorted through yet. I don't mind waiting!)

So, ambivalent as I was about the whole experience, the bottom line was I was okay with it. So, just now, I responded to the official ebay cancellation request by agreeing to it.

And if you're wondering whether this is just sour grapes on my part, I suppose that may be part of it. I definitely wasn't thrilled about the prospect of sending that much money to someone who had behaved in this manner over the course of our dealings. But another thing to keep in mind?

I didn't have to accept the cancellation. In fact, I had two options. I could have shown ebay the emails in which he agreed to ship to me. I also could have utilized the option ebay gave me of simply switching my shipping address--my wife has a cousin in Scotland and I could have used hers.

But I didn't. I think as an investment it would have been okay. But probably just okay. And I think there are probably still Marvelman and other rarities out there to be had for a lot less and therefore with much more potential for growth. Am I bummed that I don't own the legendary-at-least-for-now lost issue of Marvelman?

Yeah. But I'll get over it.

Kimota!

Enjoying the first-appearance debate. Curious to hear how you folks think it applies to a group--in fact, this is the converse of the GotG first-appearance debate.

Brave and Bold 54 is listed as the first appearance of the Teen Titans. But they're never called the Teen Titans and don't even form a group. Three of the founding characters, yes, but no group. If Brave and Bold 60 had never been published, no one ever would've referred to 54 as the first appearance of Teen Titans. It's only in 60 that they form a group and are called Teen Titans.

So...how do the various metrics you guys have applied to character first appearances...apply to the Teen Titans?

I've been chasing high-grade copies for a year. Tough to find. Just an iconic cover. Modern classic.

I do think some Copper-and-more-recent artists' work (especially covers) are in for an increase. I don't think the movie stuff will go away, exactly, but I do expect that it'll draw people into the hobby (especially around the world--that's what's gonna drive rising prices, international collectors) and as they get educated, they'll become familiar with iconic covers, influential artists, etc.

I've recently been trying to pick up Bolland work, Adam Hughes and (belatedly, I know) the classic Dave Stevens covers. I think some of the Bolland and Hughes covers (on Wonder Woman) especially, are going to pop in the guides out there as people realize how few there are out there that haven't already been either mangled in bins or snapped up by afficionados.

Just my speculation, of course.

Utterly underappreciated. Not just the phenomenal art, but the whole story's an allegory for comic collecting.

I read that the color variants of the Neal Adams Miracleman 1 and 2 were 3000 and the black-and-white Neal Adams variants of Miracleman 1 and 2 were 2500. Those were only available at shows. I don't know about the ones available through retailers.

Is this new, Warrior #1s going for this kind of money...in "very good" condition...?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Warrior-1-Quality-Magazine-1982-1st-V-For-Vendetta-Marvelman-Miracleman-/151206751048?pt=US_Comic_Magazines&hash=item23349feb48

Here's my latest addition. En Italiano! This thing is huge, approx. 11''x15''.

I have no idea how rare this book is. Any facts on the Italian printings would be greatly appreciated.

I'm guessing you got it off ebay from a guy in Italy, right? I did, too. No idea how many he has, but I've never seen them anywhere but from him.

I have a facsimilie of no.25 (see below) which I understand from an earlier correspondence with Derek was created in the early 1990s from Denis Gifford's copy and 5 were made (so rare in itself). As you can see this is NOT the same as yours - though it's quite possible Denis had 2 copies afterall. Interstingly, in addition, there's also a low grade copy pictured in Gifford's "Complete Catalogue of British Comics" (which could of course be Derek's)

 

So there would be at least 4 known...

1. Derek's

2. yours (Gifford 1)

3. the original of the facsimilie (Gifford 2?)

4. The Catalogue copy (Gifford 3?)

Well, this is good info! I guess it's hard to know whether the facsimile original could have been the one I have now. Or whether Derek's is the catalogue copy. But when you factor in Mick Anglo, the Miller family, et. al., I'm sure you're right that there's got to be at least one or two more than just mine and Derek's.

the facsimilie (with a facsimilie of no.83)

 

the catalogue copy

 

with full page of the book

 

In terms of provenance, in Gifford's very rare earlier book "The British Comic Catalogue 1874-1974" he does indirectly note owning both Marvelman no.25 and the elusive no.26 which has a story entitled "Crime Detective". That's the only mention I've ever seen of it, but Derek said another collector (Steve Holland?) once saw a copy without it's back cover many years ago. So it does appear to have existed.

You would think so, given all the buildup they did for it starting five weeks in advance. This is the first evidence I've seen, though, that anyone ever saw it. From what I gather, Gifford's comic books were not sold off in a very organized or responsible fashion. The Marvelman 25 I eventually won wasn't even sold as its own item, it was part of a make-good to round out a deal on other issues, according to the guy who sold it to me. So who knows, maybe that 26 is out there somewhere!

Young Marvelman no.25 is also extemely rare but a FN copy sold in the Compal auction in 2005 for £126.

I know! I found that one online only after the auction had closed! Missed by thatmuch!

My MF 1 cost just £150 - I'm very happy with it. At least I have 1 of the first editions!

Good deal. Mine was in nowhere near as good condition (I even wonder whether mine is the one in the catalog you showed!) but I'm still thrilled I got it.

I also have some of the pre 19-24 issues. Which seem more easy to find than MM issues.

 

Anyway, I think you're right 10x as rare is conservative, maybe a lot more than that - though I don't early print runs were only 5,000.

I'm not collecting the pre 19-24 issues, but I've certainly come across them in my search and your observation definitely matches my experience. No idea about the print runs, just passing on what the guy I talked to said. I don't think his source was anything super-authoritative. Bottom line, a handful of UK collectors already seem to have sussed out most of the sources of these books, which is why the Marvel acquisition doesn't seem to have brought too much worthwhile out of the woodwork and, as you say, the early pre-100s issues and Cap. 19-24 seem to be quite rare indeed!

Hey there, Ewan!

I've been collecting the Len Miller's for several years now and can confirm pretty much everything you've said. Pre-100s are exceedingly rare. I picked up one copy of Marvelman 102 (first appearance of Kid Marvelman) but have never seen another. I've only seen one copy of Marvelman Family 1, which I got in much worse shape than yours is.

Also very rare, and kind of interesting to me, are the PRE-Marvelman issues. In the UK Cap. Marvel and Cap. Marvel Jr. issues published by Len Miller (19-24) of each run, Marvelman and Young Marvelman appear in TEXT pieces, introducing themselves to the readers. 23 and 24 of each actually have banners on the cover calling them "Marvelman" and "Young Marvelman," too.

You guessed right about the ebay auction. I will confess that I bid a lot more than the final price, for two reasons. One, after several years of scouring the world online and tracking down leads, I had a feeling it was more rare than people knew. Two, I realized the auction only showed up on ebay.co.uk. So American collectors would only see it if they clicked on the "international" results. So, I figured most of the big, big money collectors would never see it, which meant I had a shot!

I corresponded with Derek a little bit a few years ago about Marvelman. He told me that Marvelman 26 and one other issue (a much-later Young Marvelman, I forget the number) were the only two he didn't have. I also corresponded after the auction with the seller, who told me about my Marvelman 25's provenance. He bought it from a collector who had bought a batch of comics from Giffords' estate. My Marvelman 25 had been Giffords' copy! I think Giffords was not only an indexer, but might have contributed to the series--but I don't know that. Anyway, the guy I bought it from was a long-time collector who knew Derek and was part of the small UK-collector circles. He's the one who told me only these two copies were known to exist. My internet searches for images of the issue have only turned up these two. Derek's is pretty beat up and the one I now have is noteworthy for its (former) spine tape. I'm dying to know where the other 3 you mention are???

Oh, and for your comparison of rarity, the early issues of Marvelman are definitely far more than just 1/10th as rare as US equivalents. For one thing, I corresponded with another longtime UK collector a few years ago who told me the print runs were only about 5,000. For what that's worth...

Anyway, YOUR issues are just gorgeous, so congrats on them! The expense really has taken off, so I'm probably priced out at this point. Maybe I'll post some of those pre-Marvelman L. Millers at some point...

I posted these elsewhere, but then remembered this thread and thought it would make a perfect addition to "Miracleman Rarities." It's Marvelman 25, his first appearance. Apparently, only two are known to exist. I just had it restored by the brilliant guys at Classics Incorporated, because the spine was taped. Haven't got it back yet, but they were kind enough to send before-and-after scans. Here they are:

I collected all the ones I wanted (though the DC #5 Love Stories shot out of range too quick for me to grab it). No regrets, even if they do come down in price. I gobbled them up not just as a speculator, but for nostalgic reasons. I love the look of them and have fond memories of them.

Afraid I don't know--most of the recent Adams variants have been 1:10, though.

I think I read that Neal's son JOSH ghosted the art in HOM #13. Maybe Rich Johnston's column? Has anyone seen it? Confirm/deny?