JTLarsen

Does anyone care about message board polls? I didn't even vote.

 

The way to tell how the market votes is go search the auction sites for BB 54 and BB 60. What you'll find is that BB 54 is uniformly referred to as the first TT appearance. The market for comics speaks through dealer listings and prices paid.

Right. Which is why no one has argued that BB 60 is uniformly referred to as the first TT appearance. Your League of Super Straw Men notwithstanding, what we've argued is that--just like Sgt. Rock--with time the consensus will change and people will recognize that the Teen Titans don't appear in BB 54. Not even in the first sentence of the last caption, written by someone other than the writer and the editor.

Let's see what Overstreet and the market say five or ten years from now, as reprints and especially digitalization give people the ability to read these for themselves. Until then, your pretense to the contrary notwithstanding, no one is arguing that the market considers BB 60 the first appearance.

This thread is seriously devolving.

 

Neither side is going to convince the other, so what purpose does this debate serve? It's just gotten uglier and more personal. You're both presenting the same facts over and over again -- to what end?

 

You've all fought for your opinions valiantly. Stop piling on because it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

 

Everyone take a break. Or let the thread die...

 

Just a friendly suggestion to all.

 

In my defense, I was told there would be beer.

 

 

Seriously though, if one side can't convince the other in almost 50 pages... probably not going to happen!

Agreed--which is why I'm not trying to make people agree with me. I just won't let ridiculous arguments stand when they misquote and cherry-pick what I say.

Happy to disagree with you, sir, you've been civil and fair-minded throughout! Enjoy your BB54 in good health!

This thread is seriously devolving.

 

Neither side is going to convince the other, so what purpose does this debate serve? It's just gotten uglier and more personal. You're both presenting the same facts over and over again -- to what end?

 

You've all fought for your opinions valiantly. Stop piling on because it doesn't add anything to the conversation.

 

Everyone take a break. Or let the thread die...

 

Just a friendly suggestion to all.

In my defense, I was told there would be beer.

 

Re: 54's supposed announcement of a "new team." You first made this claim when you dishonestly omitted the rest of that caption, which told readers more new teams were coming. So if you think they were referring to Robin, Aqualad and Kid Flash as a new superhero team rather than a generic teaming of characters who happened to be acting in concert, you should have been able to identify the additional teams BB introduced in subsequent issues. You haven't.

 

Dude, I addressed your fallacious logic up thread.

Weird that you didn't quote it, then. But then, that seems to be the pattern.

The text of the last panel of BB 54 has been quoted ad nauseum.

Not by you.

In looking back at the story of which it is a part, it states that Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad are a "new team." In puffing up the comic to entice readers to buy future issues it alerts readers to look for "new teams, new adventures, and new something else" (I don't have it in front of me). That's just puffery, and the fact that DC didn't introduce "new teams" in later issues doesn't invalidate the comment in the panel about the story of which it is a part.

So your NEW argument is that the word "team" in the first sentence was written by a writer, editor or storyteller introducing into the narrative the momentous, non-puffery announcement of the creation of a new superhero team, a method never used before or since in comic books to create new superhero teams. And then, for the SECOND word in this caption, they called in the boys from marketing and said, "Hey, why don't you go ahead and finish this caption box for us; you can even play off our incredibly understated use of the word "team" to accomplish what an entire comic-book worth of story failed to--the creation of a new superhero team--and now SWITCH the meaning of that word totally to refer to generic, transient partnerships." Well, I'm sold.

To make this really clear: The person who wrote the last panel of BB 54 had the benefit of reading the story which that panel concludes. What they wrote about that story is accurate. The person who wrote that last panel may not have had the benefit of knowing what the future schedule and plotlines were for the comic.

I see. So now you're saying the writer of BB54 did not write that caption. So, according to you, someone other than the writer decided to add on the notion that the three teens then formed a superhero team. AND, you further suggest, DC let someone who was neither the writer, NOR an editor familiar with even next month's story, come in and write a caption that both summarized the current issue and promoted future ones.

I must admit, I definitely think you have made this really clear.

So trying to indict the accuracy of the description of what the person saw, by citing the inaccuracy of the description of what they didn't, seem illogical in the extreme. It's like saying a weatherman is lying about it raining outside right now, when the weatherman can see the rain, just because he incorrectly forecasts rain in his next sentence.

Except I'm not trying to indict their accuracy. The entire point of my claim is that the writer of that caption box (likely the writer or editor of the story) used the word "team" honestly and consistently throughout the entire two sentences--to refer to people teaming up without forming lasting, formal alliances.

My theory requires a simple explanation. Yours requires several people producing (1) the story for the comic book, (2) the first sentence of the last caption of that comic book and then (3) the second sentence of that caption--with (2) having the benefit of reading what (1) wrote and adding the formation of a new superhero team to (1)'s story, but neither (1) nor (2) nor editor (4) informing (3) what "teams" (3) should be promoting for the issues that (1) would write and editor (4) would already have assigned.

So, folks who subscribe to your theory should feel free to continue thrilling in the exciting first appearance of the Teen Titans in the momentous, historic, first sentence of the final caption of BB54, written by the mysterious, anonymous, never-identified-in-history TRUE creator of the Teen Titans who stepped in to help out after reading what the writer of that issue wrote.

Or they can read BB60.

 

Closer to 30 years would be more accurate, Aggiez. The early reprints indicate DC initially acknowledged 60 as the 1st appearance. The comic industry has leaned over the last few decades towards the 54, and no one disputes that.

 

 

Now you are just lying.

 

Here's the chronology:

 

1964 - BB 54 announces "a new team" at the end of the story.

 

1965 - BB 60 cites back to BB 54 as the reference for when the "team" was created. BB 60 does not tout itself as "introducing" a new team, instead assuming the creation of the team predates that issue.

You are unbelievable. Literally. Other BB 54 defenders have managed to make their respective cases with integrity and intellectual honesty here. You, on the other hand, cherry-pick what you want and present it as the entire truth. And when you're called on it, you've responded with ad hominem attacks (implying financial motives to your critics, calling me young (which, natch, false), and even trotting out ADD; classy) and either simply ignore the refutations of your made-up arguments or make new stuff up out of whole cloth. It's really quite breath-taking.

1964 - BB 54 did not announce a new team. Show us the panel--the WHOLE panel--where this happens.

1965 - You say, "BB 60 cites back to BB54 as the reference for when the "team" was created." I can't tell whether your syntax is garbled here intentionally (to facilitate your obfuscation) or not, but either way, an innocent reader who didn't know your track record might think you meant to say, simply, "BB 60 cites BB 54 as when the "team" was created." Which is a lie.

Re: 54's supposed announcement of a "new team." You first made this claim when you dishonestly omitted the rest of that caption, which told readers more new teams were coming. So if you think they were referring to Robin, Aqualad and Kid Flash as a new superhero team rather than a generic teaming of characters who happened to be acting in concert, you should have been able to identify the additional teams BB introduced in subsequent issues. You haven't. Just like you haven't been able to identify a single panel in BB 54 in which ANYONE says, "Hey, great working with you guys, let's form a team." Because no one does. Three superheroes show up, they work together and they leave. The caption tells us this team has triumphed and there will be new teams ahead. Which turned out to be "teams" like Metal Men and the Atom. Black Canary and Starman.

I disagree with others who say we should care about what DC has said--either way (and here, too, of course, you've cherry-picked)--over the years about the creation and the origin, etc. The origin will change as continuity changes. The only permanent, unalterable aspect here is first appearance.

And the fact is, if you pick up and read BB54, you will see three teen-age superheroes fight crime together. They don't intend to team up, someone else brings them together without each other's knowledge. None of them decides they want to keep working together. No one SAYS they want to or will keep working together. No one even discusses the concept of forming any super-team, let alone with the others. If you pick up and read BB54, you will not see ANY super-team formed, let alone one called the Teen Titans. And if you read BB60, you WILL see the Teen Titans, and you will learn that Robin set up the group "after" the events of BB54. Which means not in BB54.

If you want to keep claiming that the superhero group now known as the Teen Titans formed and first appeared in a caption box in the last panel of BB54, go right ahead, but at the bare minimum, have the integrity to tell people who might be good-hearted enough to still believe you that the very next sentence in that caption box tells readers more new teams are on the way--and that despite your claim they meant "team" in the sense of an established, formal, persisting alliance, you can't name a single new superhero team that followed.

But no one has delivered a definitive statement on either side, so I'll continue to be on the BB54 wagon, as it is the current and currently correct title for Teen Titans first appearance and origin.

 

(Picks up mic and carefully places it back in the stand).

 

You are SO pandering to the whole bipartisan compromise crowd. You're welcome to stay on that antiquated wagon, but a change is gonna come my friend...the BB60 bullet train has left the station and it's coming for us all (complete with actual definitive statement from Robin, the Boy Wonder)!

 

 

No more beer for you...

Fine. Shots it is.

I'm on record here numerous times with my thoughts on this. Nothing anyone has said has changed my position that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. If someone wants to post something new I'll consider it. It's all really just a difference of opinions, and you know what they say about opinions...

 

I would suggest new posters read the entire thread before contributing, as many rehash or restate the same worn out arguments over and over again without shedding any new light on the debate. It's a good read with many interesting points made on both sides.

 

But no one has delivered a definitive statement on either side, so I'll continue to be on the BB54 wagon, as it is the current and currently correct title for Teen Titans first appearance and origin.

 

(Picks up mic and carefully places it back in the stand).

You are SO pandering to the whole bipartisan compromise crowd. You're welcome to stay on that antiquated wagon, but a change is gonna come my friend...the BB60 bullet train has left the station and it's coming for us all (complete with actual definitive statement from Robin, the Boy Wonder)!

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

There have been several images posted in this thread that have also shown DC at various times has considered #60 to be the teams first appearance. So why should we conveniently ignore those - as you are doing - but give weight to their statements supporting #54?

 

It seems pretty clear from what people have posted here that at various times, different editors at DC have considered one or the other to be the team's first appearance. So that avenue of argument seems kind of pointless, as they cancel themselves out.

 

Furthermore, as I have said before, who cares what DC thinks? We can read the comics and see for ourselves what was actually published. I mean, DC could announce tomorrow that they consider More Fun Comics #14 to be the first appearance of Superman, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I don't see how either "the market" or DC editorial can, should or does have any effect on the actual contents of the actual comics. Who cares what conventional wisdom has believed for the last 50 years? Let's deal with what's in the comics!

 

 

You know, about a year ago I got in a similar argument regarding TTA #27 vs. #35, only in that case, I was arguing the opposite side. That argument went on for a long time and got somewhat nasty and somewhat personal.

 

Despite that, however, I thought the other side had a lot of good points. Their arguments had merit, and there's a good chance I was wrong.

 

In this case, though, I have to say I haven't seen any good evidence to suggest that #54 is correct. Almost all of the arguments presented rely on conventional wisdom, retroactive editorial decisions or ambiguous editorial commentary made decades later.

 

The only bit of evidence given in favor of #54 that seems to hold any weight for me is the use of the word "team" in the text box following the story. That I can see, and I think that argument has merit.

 

It doesn't sway me personally, however, because team can be used formally or informally, and nothing in the story suggests they meant it in a formal sense. DC had been using the term "Superman-Batman team" in issues of World's Finest for many years at that point, but were Superman and Batman actually a team in the same sense that the Justice league or the Teen Titans are a team? No, of course not.

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of ambiguous first appearances in comics that are worthy of debate. Ant-Man is kinda complicated, depending on how you look at things. The first appearance of the Unknown Soldier gets legitimately complicated. Or, if you want to really get into an endless continuity morass, we can debate the first appearance of the Silver Age Black Canary.

 

But this doesn't seem nearly as complicated. #60 is literally the first time the "Teen Titans" appear.

What he said. The guy with the rationality.

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

 

Do you actually know the publishing history of these books??? Read the excerpt from TT#1 above that directly links the two books together. 54 begat 60.

 

I have both. You tend to get very personal when discussing this. I think you should try to keep that in check. Thanks.

 

You can 'begat' from here till eternity... that argument leads nowhere because some earlier issue very often begat another. BB53 begat BB54....

 

It is extremely clear that DC got the idea to do a cross-over in BB54. They did not make them a team but more a cross-over like Superman 76. When they saw the huge success, they made them an actual team in BB60 with wonder girl (to appeal to girls too) with teen team.

 

I lose my patience when it appears someone doesn't care at all about the actual history surrounding a title... if you're going to suggest such a sea change in the industry, I would expect at least a nod or consideration to historical events and the context of how these decisions were made to the comics we love. That's what separates the collectors from the speculators.

 

If they weren't a team in BB54, why does the last panel in BB54 say the start of a new TEAM then?

I'm glad you mentioned that. Because I just went back and re-read BB54. And to my shock and surprise, the quote that's been hurled around so often about the new team has not been quoted in full here. Shocking, I know.

Here's what the ENTIRE caption box says:

"Once again, a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed! Watch BRAVE AND BOLD for NEW teams, NEW adventures, NEW excitement!"

So, unless you think this was an advance plug for the first appearance of Batman & the Outsiders in BB200, can you tell me which "NEW teams" appeared in the issues following BB54?

55: Metal Men and Atom (Metal Men were not a new team, so this must've been the first appearance of a to-be-named-later team consisting of Atom, Platinum, Tin, etc...)

56: Flash and Martian Manhunter

57/58: Metamorpho (not a team, except of elements).

59: Batman and Green Lantern (first appearance of the Batman/Green Lantern team! Heaing up on ebay!)

60: Clearly not a new team.

61: Starman and Black Canary

Etc.

So, if the intention of that now-FULLY-quoted caption box was to announce that the three teens had just formed a team while we weren't looking, what "NEW teams" were they telling us to watch for afterward?

Unless, of course, they used the word "team" in its lower-case sense to mean any combination of people, without the formal existence of a standing, recurring alliance.

In which case, BB60 would be the first appearance of the team we all know and love as The Teen Titans.

Now where's that mic-drop emoji...

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

No, Robin says "after" B&B 54. If you think Robin is wrong about when he set up the Teen Titans, please identify the panel in B&B 54 in which that happens.

 

There is nowhere that says after "B&B 54"...it says "after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" which was in B&B 54 with the issue ending with the team formed…the team was later named TEEN TITANS in B&B 60 and added a new member.

 

This thread has certainly run its course. It's beginning to sound like Capital Hill...

He says, "after" they helped the teens of Hatton Corners, which the asterisked footnote tells us was in B&B 54. And I just re-read 54. They don't form a team. The teens of Hatton Corners invite the three of them--separately, individually--they all arrive, team up just like heroes did in every issue, and then it's over. No forming of a team. If you think they formed a team, show us the panel where it happened.

You're position in this is harder -- you have to create a sea change from the status quo. You have to take what is the prevailing opinion and convince the industry that you're opinion is better than decades of what has been heretofore presented as fact.

 

I just don't think you've done it. Rehashing the same information that's already in the public isn't going to be enough. If you had something new, then maybe I'd be more inclined to listen.

 

And yeah, motivation is a factor in this as well. Why change now? Why after decades of the industry accepting the fact that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans are you trying to suddenly change it?

 

I wish you luck, but for me personally, I'm not convinced.

I'm actually not trying to convince anyone. But thank you for the sentiment. I didn't start this thread, but I've thought this for years and the counter-arguments got under my skin. I went through the same thing with OAW years ago and decided to spend my money on 83 after deciding that the consensus around 81 was wrong. Within a few years, Overstreet totally reversed itself and now my 83 was considered the first appearance. I didn't weigh in on that discussion anywhere. But it opened my eyes to the fact that rock-hard consensus can change extremely quickly.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just responding to arguments that I find specious. Lots of claims have been made about B&B 54 that I'm not disagreeing with. Important? Yes. Origin? If you like. Part of the canon? I'd say so.

So, I'm not trying to drag 54 down. I'm not trying to MAKE the sea change happen. I'm just predicting that it will when people weigh all the evidence.

Can we have our beer now?

Right. But since they could have, then BB54 isn't a prerequisite for BB60. I'm not exactly sure why we're arguing about this. I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone arguing that BB54 is a precursor, or part of the story, or part of the origin or whatever. I, too, think it's an important book. It just doesn't have the first appearance of the Teen Titans in it.

 

You're right -- let's stop arguing about it and go grab a beer!

First one to fall down drunk buys the other a copy of B&B 57.

You act like all this evidence is "new" -- as if you've suddenly discovered all of this amazing information -- but the hard truth is NOTHING you've shown is new. NOTHING you're basing your OPINION regarding BB54 is new. But the industry, the dealers, the actual publisher and owner of the Teen Titans all agree AND HAVE FOR DECADES, that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And guess what, they've seen all the stuff you've seen... and they still choose BB54.

 

Sorry, but DC has made it crystal clear their position is that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And if I had to chose between the PUBLISHER or the opinion of a few posters in a forum with questionable motives... I go with my position -- a position based in STORY and HISTORY backed by the people who created and printed the very books in question, backed by the leaders in the collecting industry, backed by the owners of the very board where you've chosen to voice your opinion:

 

BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans.

Sssshhh, it's going to be okay.

First of all, I don't "act like" this evidence is new. I specifically say it's old. Right there in B&B 54 and 60. If you have a quote in which I "act like" those are new, please quote it.

And I have also stipulated, from the start, that industry consensus gives the crown to B&B 54. Just as they did to OAAW 81 for decades. That changed and I think the Titans consensus will change, too.

And while your use of capitalization is very impressive, it doesn't change the fact that traditions can be wrong and the way we determine that is by examining the actual evidence. If you have evidence of the Teen Titans forming in B&B 54, go ahead and share it with us.

 

And other people are going to look at what's actually in that issue and say, "Where the hell is the phrase 'Teen Titans'? When do they decide to form a super-team? When do they actually form it?" And they'll realize, oh, mess, this is a prototype or something.

 

Teen Titan collectors, folks who actually read BB 54 and 60, have known forever the relationship between 54 and 60 and that 54 is the origin and first appearance without naming the team. What you're hung up on is a pretty simple concept: A team can be formed without a name.

Yes, it can. In what panel did the nameless team form, please?

Fair enough, but missing the point, I think. I concede that B&B 60, which includes a direct reference to events in and after 54, could not have been published exactly the same way without 54. Could it EASILY have been published without that reference and still been virtually identical? Yeah.

 

You're also missing my point: HISTORY states that the reason DC went ahead and published BB60 is because of the positive reception it received from BB54. 54 begat 60. There is a direct correlation and connection between these two books.

 

Could someone have independently decided hey, let's do a teen sidekick book and call it "Tween Titans" or "Prepubescent Titans" without BB54? Um, yeah they could have. (hint: they didn't). DC could have also published a book about a walking tree and a talking raccoon...

Right. But since they could have, then BB54 isn't a prerequisite for BB60. I'm not exactly sure why we're arguing about this. I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone arguing that BB54 is a precursor, or part of the story, or part of the origin or whatever. I, too, think it's an important book. It just doesn't have the first appearance of the Teen Titans in it.

I work in publishing

incidently

 

Still waiting for that page or panel the excited new owner of B&B 54 can turn to to revel in the awesome first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

You must be young. It's a story. You have to read the whole story to see the origin of the team. This is not ADD land. They first appear in a panel together on p. 3, and by the end of the story they have learned the value of working together.

I'm 48, so your track record of perception and making false statements remains unbroken.

And note that I said "first appearance" and you said "origin." Are you SURE you're not in ADD land?

I look forward to seeing some day a CGC label on B&B 54 that notes "FIrst appearance of Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad learning the value of working together."

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

The video tape shows you misquoted Robin. He says that team was set up after "Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners."

 

And the conclusion of the adventure at Hatton Corners states: "A startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

This all does fit quite nicely with what DC said in the very first reprint of BB 54 and what it has said for the past 20 years of the BB 54 reprints in Archives, Showcase, on-line, and, I think you'll see next month, in the 50 Anniversary book.

I'm going to say this for what I'm sure won't be the last time. I acknowledge that the universe at large, including corporate DC, considers B&B 54 the first appearance of the Teen Titans. Okay? My argument is that I think this will change once people realize that people like you can point to no single panel in 54 where the team is formed, let alone named. And when they realize that you simply make stuff up. For instance, you claim I misquoted Robin. First of all, I didn't quote him at all. So, you made that up. Second, I paraphrased him accurately--he says he set up the Teen Titans after helping the teenagers of Hatton Corners, which, as the asterisked footnote you omitted tells us, occurred in B&B 54. So, you made that up, too.

And here's the thing, I don't need you to agree with me. You can even keep making stuff up if you want. You've made up the notion that anyone said anything about the trademark for the "Teen Titans" name when no one did. You've made up the idea that a text box at the conclusion of a story somehow established the creation of a brand new super-team. You've made up claims about what I say.

Now, despite all that, some people are going to agree with you and say, "Hell, yeah, 54 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans! I love the part of their first appearance where the editor says, 'has triumphed!'"

And other people are going to look at what's actually in that issue and say, "Where the hell is the phrase 'Teen Titans'? When do they decide to form a super-team? When do they actually form it?" And they'll realize, oh, mess, this is a prototype or something.

I'm betting that the evidence I and others have put forward (like, actual in-continuity story panels in which Robin tells us things) will eventually overcome both the acknowledged current consensus in favor of 54 as well as the meta-textual evidence you've put forward (like, ambiguously worded editorial captions after the story ends).

Still waiting for that page or panel the excited new owner of B&B 54 can turn to to revel in the awesome first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

In B&B 54, Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad help the teenagers of Hatton Corners. "AFTER" that, Robin set up a group of junior crime-fighters called the Teen Titans. Not only does Robin explicitly say that, we know it must be so, because nowhere in B&B 54 does Robin or anyone else set up a group of junior crime-fighters. Three actors acting together does not make a theater company. If those three actors set up a theater company to act together on a regular basis in the future, then they've formed a theater company. And if that theater company is formed after the three actors did one play in Hatton Corners, that does not make Hatton Corners the site of the founding of the Teen Titans Theater Company.

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

No, Robin says "after" B&B 54. If you think Robin is wrong about when he set up the Teen Titans, please identify the panel in B&B 54 in which that happens.

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

Let's go to the videotape.

So, try again.

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.

 

Well, I could say you can't disprove it either, but that would be an equally ridiculous and pointless request... And I'm not sure I understand your logic that the statement is true but impossible to prove? If it's true, then it's true.

Fair enough, but missing the point, I think. I concede that B&B 60, which includes a direct reference to events in and after 54, could not have been published exactly the same way without 54. Could it EASILY have been published without that reference and still been virtually identical? Yeah.

Fans can say whatever they want and the market can decide what it wants to as well. Those factors can make #54 the key issue for collectors. That's all fine and I have no problem with it. People can collect what they want, how they want.

 

But in terms of the real world, actual publication history shows that #60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

 

haha As an example of why this discussion is taking so long, and is so maddening to all of us with every other post (the ones promoting the other side…), I actually agree with the above … and yet it reads like you have it backwards to me.

 

In my world, the one that I think of as the "real" world -- the ones we fans live in, that DC published comics in, their "Publication History" says #54 to me, and it's the fans today that are demanding that #60 be their first appearance.

Totally agree that the fan world has decided 54 is the first appearance. I just think eventually the consensus will shift, as it did with Sgt. Rock, based on actual textual analysis.

 

I'll see if I can explain it more simply. You say the Teen Titans first appeared in B&B 54. Where?

 

The team is formed when the heroes band together, the team in announced as a "new team" in the last panel, and the team is named in their next appearance.

 

Clearly, the concept that a "team" can "form" before it is "named" is a little advanced for you. But, that's what happened with Teen Titans.

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

If you want to be a Teen Titans completest you have to get BB 54 as it is the first appearance and origin of the team. BB 60 adds a new member and introduces the name "Teen Titans."

So...no panel? C'mon, give us a hint! On what PAGE of B&B 54 does the superhero group known as the Teen Titans form?

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

Prove it. Sixty would not have been published with the reference to 54, true. But not published at all? Impossible to prove, but feel free to try.