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Posts posted by MyNameIsLegion
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Lois Lane #112 pg12: Rose & Thorn Splashy Super Sexy Extremely Important Excellent $8th appearance!!
( I got a little cheeky with my description)
Just got this from Dewey from CAL. "Every rose has its thorn...."
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hey @tth2 are you still able to edit the title of this thread? I don't think most agreed to make one HA thread for all signature auctions, each one has months of ramp-up and wind down and it's own personality that it simply makes more sense for them to live on their own, but I think you could make this the officially HA weekly Art Auction discussion thread.
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On 5/17/2024 at 3:23 PM, Telegan said:
Yes, that's what's been said, but ... Gold itself used to be a contrarian investment to tech. Tech in a rising interest rate environment probably shouldn't be going up. Oil and precious metal traders admit they usually have no idea long-term what's going to happen with those commodities (and it's somewhat been proven the past few months/years). So these all can't be contrarian to one another and still be contrarian to comic books, can they? Which is why I was saying when comic books were going up, energy both dumped and went up at different periods during that cycle (as an example).
Even within comic books, there are eras, genres, artists, etc, Golden Age, as an example, which have been generally holding up well so far while the rest of the market corrected. Now if/when the rest of the comic market goes up, will that mean Golden Age will tank? Who knows.
One thing I've always thought about this supposed relationship among these investments is the fact that stuff like gold, silver, equities, bonds, crypto, oil, etc. can be algorithmically traded. Probably 60% (at least) of all equities trades are done by computers nowadays. I don't know of a way to algorithmically trade comic books and fine art. I wonder if there is a lead/lag factor in price trends in any of those type of "investments". So, for example, "OMG, my oil stocks are crashing! I better jump into comic books!" (I have no clue who does this, but whatever. lol). To sell comic books will take time. Even to buy may take time. You're not going to quickly allocate money from one to the other unless you're being at least somewhat indiscriminate about what you're buying. I think this, in part, is why comic books are still tanking. We're still seeing the cascading sell-off from the COVID boom. Whereas in stocks, it's more like "log in... click ... sold.... I'm out."
wait, what thread am I in? We can't have a conversation about precious metals, Al Gore ain't got no rhythm , and the price of investments vs. collectibles (Gene can probably copy/paste previous arguments here) without @tth2 and @delekkerste
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On 5/16/2024 at 5:01 AM, Rick2you2 said:It’s not always so “black and white”. While most antiques with the look of age on them are considered better than if scrubbed, Art Deco and Mid-Century Modern furniture can be made more valuable with cleaning. Both styles look best when their clean, simple lines stand out, and the grime of age reduces it. If a piece had a bad bulky signature on it, or something else affecting its artistic integrity, I would get rid of it, too.
if people would just laminate their art when they buy it. All these things could be avoided!
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On 5/16/2024 at 9:19 AM, Michael Browning said:
I had it a month, so no loss at all. I paid $650 for it and got $650.
On comics, if I have them for more than a month, I'm sweating trying to get them sold. I like the chase more than keeping them, honestly, and every comic can be bought back (my philosophy on selling comics: This ain't the only copy).
loss averted. I'm curious what condition the IH181 was to go for $650?
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if indeed as @Tnexus suspects, they took an inkjet print and applied pencil roughs and maybe some spot inks on top of that to make it look organic then this is a smoking gun. speaking of gun, I find it off that it is cut off in the drawing, but they would have to trim it, as any printer cannot print to the edge of the page so they would have to hand trim it to make it look real, and who draws 3/4 of a gun? I'm sure they had a full figure drawing on the computer that they could print to any size and trim or edit as they saw fit. Swap out weapons, hats, facial expressions, maybe move an arm or a leg, just like Neal Adams would do on his variations on a theme con drawings.
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On 5/16/2024 at 8:26 AM, Michael Browning said:
Team America pages will ALWAYS go up in value. Just like U.S. 1 pages. ;)
I guess I was one who saw that the 2020 boom wouldn't last forever and I was cautious and didn't buy a lot of expensive stuff during that period. At least I didn't buy at those prices. I tend to view every single piece as an investment because I know one day it will all get sold -- whether I sell it or my family sells it when I'm gone, I don't ever want to lose a penny.
I will say that I have never, in my almost 30 years of collecting, seen art drop drastically in value. It might not go up exponentially, but it goes up some, at least. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I don't think it will in my lifetime.
I don't have unlimited resources so I have had to calm down on buying big items last year and this year. It's why I didn't buy the Team America 1 cover and the Ghost Rider 70 cover. I love, love, love those pieces, but I couldn't see a near future in which -- if I had to -- I could recoup $25,000 each on those, so I backed away on the TA cover and didn't even bid on the GR. As much as I wanted them (and I could have raised the cash pretty quickly), I also knew that I would have to wait YEARS for that investment to grow into what I paid.
And I totally get that humans aren't rational, especially comic art-collecting humans. The OA-collecting heart wants what the OA-collecting heart wants. It just hurts my heart to ever sell anything at a loss. I sold a Hulk 180 a month ago for exactly what I paid for it to fund a piece of art, but I made money on the overall larger deal and didn't lose a cent on the Hulk, so I felt okay with that. If I'd had to sell at a loss, I don't think I'd ever forget that and it would taint whatever I bought with the money, no matter how much I loved the new piece.
so you lost money in real dollar terms. If you had it more than a year, with inflation you could have lost easily 20% after a few years. Breaking even on art (or comics) is losing money. We like to overlook that stark reality, but it is reality. There are absolutely areas of art collecting that have lost money in real dollar terms. If you held onto your Pogo's strips to the bitter end, they are losing money when you sell, even if you break even in face value. A $200 strip in 1995 would have to sell for $411 now to break even. If a nominal increase in value over time doesn't keep up with inflation- you are losing money. If you sold the $200 strip for $300 in 2002- you made money. I know it's antithetical to our lizard brain, but always cut your loses first, not last.
BTW- even though you lost money on the Hulk #181, you were wise to sell it since it's dropped 40-50% from it's peak in certain grades. So you you minimized your losses.
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On 5/15/2024 at 8:02 PM, Michael Browning said:I'll be honest: If I kept losing money, I'd stop selling until the pieces were worth what I had in them. Or, I wouldn't pay so much. Why overpay for pieces?
On 5/15/2024 at 4:36 PM, Michael Browning said:Fifteen years ago, I dropped a quarter in a Books-A-Million and looked down with the intentions of picking it back up and putting it into my pocket. I got busy talking to the cashier and forgot to pick it up and left it there and it eats at me to this very day. I cannot imagine selling a piece of art and losing even a single penny on it and being okay with that. Nothing ever offsets a loss for me.
ah, the sunk cost fallacy. That's not rational you know? If your collection of Team America's pages peaked in 2020 due to a variety of external factors over which you have no control and will have no control in the future but it is clear that the longer you hold them, the more of your original investment you stand to lose then all things being equal- if you need to pair down your collection to pay for something else, or just cash out- the logical choice is to sell the pieces that stand a greater change of losing more money FIRST.
unfortunately, humans are not rational. But in a scenario where: You need $400: Option A is to sell a page where you have $500 cost basis and a 50% chance it will drop to $0 over time, but you can sell it right now for $400. Option B is to sell a page with a $250 cost basis, a 50% chance it will go up value over time, and you can sell it right now for $400. which do you sell? The logical choice is A. If that feels wrong, and to many it does, that is the basis of the disposition effect
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I watched most of Bill's CAL recap: He admitted that Mother's Day weekend was not ideal, and was moved to that weekend to not conflict with another art show, but he won't do that again. I would also say he was competing with College Graduations on Saturday, and for the comic nerds that beat the odds and pro-created that was also a scheduling conflict. I know of at least one dealer that was juggling that. So Bill should stick to the next weekend, and if anyone else schedules a conflict, well too damn bad.
- Some grumble that the site does not allow converting CAF classifieds into CAL listings. Well, that was by design, to keep it fresh, and I'm glad Bill pushed back on that.
- He mentioned there is some way to go the other direction and convert the CAL listing to a classified. That might need a little FAQ, I know some aren't sure how.
- Booths for sellers will stay up for 60 days before they are wiped.
- some of the improvements to the email notifications were in anticipation of the CAF Mobile app, with the intent of that being live by the time CAL #10 roles around in November! That's huge.
- Saved sellers: It came up in the recap, but I think the site already saved sellers, and since the seller ID"s don't change, I had them marked as saved from previous CAL events. That was good for some, but annoying for others if they didn't participate (I had some saved with zero pieces in their booth) Maybe there needs to be an option to view previous saved sellers or not)
Some suggestions:
- Post con- or maybe End of Day 1 or Day 2- post an award for the Booths : Collectors and Dealers that sold the most art, to encourage them to actually sell stuff and close a deal. That then highlights they are a good seller worth watching. You can have multiple categories: Most sales, highest sales, etc. this in turn encourages the sellers to not put Zero on the sold pieces (though that has gotten better, maybe 10 did that)
- I think more could be done with the stats in general to highlight the most popular items in booths, most visiting booths, most popular searches etc. Make those real-time like they do in the main site. That builds a sense of urgency and excitement.
- Sunday Art Drop: Premium should have an hour early access like Saturday. It's not that hard to code.
- CAL sales should be part of CAF sales history feature.
I bought one piece from a long time Premium CAF member. We hadn't done a transaction in a dozen years although I always watch his gallery and he watches mine. I was pleased to make that one buy for that reason and pick up a cool SA page for a decent price for a character I've never had before that I had been coveting a representative piece.
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- Will_K, Hockeyflow33, J.Sid and 5 others
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On 5/12/2024 at 8:34 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:
There are so many pages from the weekly Heritage auctions that show up on dealer sites or CAF resellers for insane prices. Several pieces I've sent to auctions over the last few years sold wicked cheap, like way under $100 and they all sit of dealer sites for 5, 6, or 10x what they paid
check the flip thread- there's a Romita piece in comicart-live right now that sold in the Wednesday HA and is marked up double. it hasn't shipped, probably hasn't even been paid for. Are they high?
- John E., Lee B., Hockeyflow33 and 1 other
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On 5/12/2024 at 6:39 AM, Rick2you2 said:
You do realize you have described a way of how Tulipmania can start?
start? We’ve been taking about this in various threads for 5 years.
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On 5/12/2024 at 5:15 AM, Dr. Balls said:It’s good to hear more people thinking like this.
who cares?
we are dangerously close to:
"1st appearance of Deadpool holding a chimichanga in his left hand!"
"True first appearance of Etrigan the Demon ending a sentence in a preposition just to make it rhyme!"
"First appearance "Story continued after next page" paste-up in a Marvel New Universe book!"
First time an X-men character written by Claremont says "body and soul" dialog (ok that might be slightly interesting)
Zabu's first hariball!
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopen
we are less than a few years away from AI being able to mechanically produce penciled and inked original art. Granted, this is totally unnecessary when it all can be done digitally, but it can be done mechanically. 3D printing, CAD drawings, Toss in a little AI and you could create or recreate mechanically penciled and inked original art- complete with pencil underlayment with impressions and indentions and real ink. The autopen is 200 year old technology, it' has only gotten better with computers. Program a little randomness, imperfections, incomplete lines and it can be near impossible to detect.
So yeah, I imagine there are art farms cranking out originals faster than Ed Bene's studio. Just imagine what this could mean for the comic sketch cover market. You could have an original cover drawing created before the comic is even produced and shipped. Just tell the art rep what you want, and they will tell your favorite artist to plug it into the random Harley Quinn AI pin-up generator using their style and away we go. Cha Ching!
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- cloud cloddie, Twanj and grapeape
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If you still deal in comics, especially slabs of SA, BA, CA- you know the market has tanked on all keys by 50-75% off their Covid Highs, returning to 2019 levels. Marvel movie hype is DEAD. But adjustments in pricing on OA relative to the commodities market of CGC books is much more resistant. The birth page nonsense hyped in the OA market the last couple of years was an extension of all that, and is going to end badly for the last guy that holds, but no one wants to take the loss. But everything else besides, those 4-5K BA pages that shot up during Covid were $1500 in 2018-2019 and not moving too fast. Now dealers have a new problem: They have to continue to prop up the market, but they also can't get material as readily because no one that bought in the last 5 years is will to take the loss or risk of a loss on a flip or trade. HA inventory is highly dependent on estate auctions. Boomers dying is forcing material to come to market and dealers have to bid it all up to maintain price perception, and win enough to show fresh inventory. Their natural advantage of not paying tax and paying with consignments keeps it all moving, but the velocity of those dollars has to have slowed down.
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buy what you like(say the dealers and quasi dealers pretending to be collectors) Those types are just trying to rationalize or justify some exorbitant price.
- buy what you is available to you, especially if you don't have any competition and you have the rare opportunity to be the first one to own it in a considerable number of years (not an auction, not a dealer, you're just buying other people's cast off's or flips or dealers flips of a cast off or flip, and it will co$t 50% more just because of the change of hands whether the piece is worth it or not objectively) Even if it's not your favorite piece, someone else may appreciate it even more, and likewise they may have something they are bored with that you like and it can be a win-win and not break the bank)
- 50% of the people that contact you out of the blue to sell are lying about something. Which 50%? Therein lies the rub. None of their words should sway you, only the amount negotiated. Ask your network of collecting buddies that are not dealers, fake collectors, birthers or influencers or have been in the hobby less than 10 years, they don't know enough to have an educated opinion), -odds are they have history with them that will be informative
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- cloud cloddie and grapeape
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Go back and look at Dave McKean's original 75 issue run of The Sandman covers. Around 1991 you start to see more obvious evidence that Dave was using photoshop to produce the covers. In hindsight, as someone who knew how to use Photoshop since 1992 in commercial printing his concepts are great, but his execution is fair to be kind. In 1994, Photoshop 3.0 was released, and that introduced layers. This was transformational for photo manipulation as previously it required using alpha channels in crude ways that "looked" unrealistic without a helluva lot of work. Lo and behold, the last third of the Sandman run Dave got better at it, but he also got lazy. What started in 1989 as shadow box assemblages with actual painted components drifted to layered textures of paint overlaid digitally, He was starting to phone it in, or "photoshop it in" to be more precise. Distress some type using funky fonts converted to bitmap in Photoshop, reuse some paint layers, jack with the layer effects and opacity, and a few random B&W blurring images and you have a Sandman cover. Dave's a great painter when he wants to be, but that probably wasn't commercially viable for him, or it simply took too much time. Technology allowed him to make a cover of an Eisner award winning comics for 75 issues, and by the end, he could probably crank one out in a single afternoon. He took full advantage of technology as it became available.
These digital tools for the artist made it cheaper, easier and faster while he probably got paid the same or more. Lots of other "artists" followed in Dave's wake and starting producing book and comic covers. You see them in SPECTRUM's annual every year. It got pretty bad in the last 15 years. Many are barely more than an enhanced digital photo. I started to suspect John Bolton was employing some digital slight of hand for the last decade. His finished paintings looked like a digital photo reference. We've employed digital artists to produce illustrations for packaging for years that used to be painted or drawn, but now are do in Photoshop or similar. They are absolutely taking an image and creating the effect of paint and then using paint effects with a WACOM pen to make it look less like the stock image. There are plug-ins that do it for you so you don't need the artist to do it. We are probably to a point that Alex Ross could feed AI samples of his art, and photo references of his models and produce a pretty passable digital painting, maybe a comic layout in a fraction of the time it would take to paint traditionally. If Alex does it, is that "cheating?" as long as we don't know, and get some cool new book from Ross no one will complain. But if someone else does it in the style of Alex Ross, they are ready to scream bloody murder. Other artists can ape Ross's style, (and then have) to produce work, but they still require the skill and training to do it. AI let's everyone skip a lot of the steps in "earning" the rights and privilege of calling themselves an artist and the results are mixed, but it's amazing how forgiving we are when it's our own clumsy effort, or we just saved hundreds or thousands of dollars. It's good enough. That's one argument against AI. It's a rush to mediocrity not just theft of intellectual property. I think the former is the greater concern than the later TBH. Eventually someone will be more than willing to provide the IP to plug into AI in the form of a styleguide or look. That's what they will be paid for, not the execution of the art itself, that's pure time and labor, no one wants to pay for it, and a great many artists don't really want to do it anyway. Where we all bristle, is the encroaching uncanny valley of the resultant AI output. It's not quite right, but it's good enough. Mediocrity.
Mediocrity has been the real enemy since the industrial revolution. It's all around you, You, me, all of us have largely become inured to it. We will come to accept AI for art just as we have accepted autotune for music.
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Just posted what is for me, a longstanding comic art goal. A classic Colan/Palmer Dr. Strange page, and a splash to boot.
Dr. Strange splash by the mighty, magical, mystical art team of Gene Colan & Tom Palmer
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I've said it before, and I"ll say it again, I don't ship to the IFS, (Italy, France, Spain) because it's iffy if it gets there. I'm willing to add Belgium to the list, and call it the BIFS, but "biffy" isn't as pithy as "iffy"
Are OA prices out of control?
in Original Comic Art
Posted
in 2000 I could buy Philippine Studio artists output for DC by the linear foot, same for Archie art.