MyNameIsLegion

I was positing that a book previously graded would have enough identifying characteristics that if resubbed after pressing and cleaning it could essentially identify the book and infer the differences were the result of "improvements" not that it could detect pressing outright. (though I don't rule it out, if there were some other signature it could read, perhaps in the infrared spectrum)

AI could verify a resub against the original submission, detect pressing and cleaning or any improvements while still retaining matching unique identifying characteristics. It could also dial in the grades as compared to all historical grades for a particular book and create a range tolerance- even if a human is determining the final grade. The AI could say "I'm sorry Dave, that grade is above or below the threshold for all 647 historical grades for that issue with these imperfections. Please enter a different grade. Dave are you feeling alright? 87% of the books you graded today are .2 grades below the historical average. You seem to do this on most Monday's during the regular football season. are you getting enough sleep and drinking enough water? Perhaps you should get some rest. I'll finish entering the grades for you."

you think AI is limited like human's to the visual spectrum?

maybe CGC is responding with crisis management actors to combat the negative youtubers.

Buddy already has book recognition in their internal systems. It's cool AF.

she ghosted him online after he sent her $500 in Walmart gift cards.

oh? https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/style/raphael-madonna-della-rosa-ai-scli-intl-scn/index.html yeah, while CGC is busy ignoring this thread, someone is thinking about how they can grade more,faster using AI. MCS will probably get their first because they are innovation minded but the first grading company to figure this out will disrupt the market in a way that poses the single biggest threat to CGC's dominance, much more than this little embarrassing thread. It's not a question of IF AI will will do grading of collectibles, but when. 3D objects objects are not an issue. That's been fairly routine for a decade. The last guy at CGC that might still have a job in 10 years, ironically enough as it pertains to this thread, is the mook reholdering books.

I agree with all of this- it pretty much lays out CGC's conundrum in doing anything at all legally, or want to even be involved in any legal proceeding. There's no upside, it's all bad.

I don't know firsthand just how much $$$ this guy has made selling slabs, or how many were not legit. If one of the buyers filed a criminal complaint that might set the wheels in motion. I don't know if CGC would initiate it or not, that's why I kept asking if they were themselves an injured party affected by the deception and could file criminal charges or take it to civil court. I think that CGC would be reluctant to really put themselves out there unless subpoenaed to do so because it's all bad press for them that would become public record.

I"m not condoning any of the scenarios I detailed where the buyer is deceived into believing that the book matched the grade on the slab. It's patently unethical Heck, I'm squeamish about pressing really being permanent, and the book reverting to a lesser grade after the fact. I was arguing if each scenario was technically fraud. The lawyers here have weighed in that it is- as have you.

thank Chris. OK, I concede any of my arguments on the last 3 pages. Hey I'm not a lawyer, and I don't think I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in the last 5 years.

yes, when he sold it. I was questioning if the mere act of submitting the swapped book to be reholdered to CGC qualifies as fraud towards CGC. Some posters were demanding CGC break out the pitchforks and nukes. I was contending that between the scammer and CGC alone, did any kind of fraud occur?

ok, that's fair. Maybe is harder to prove beyond a reasonable doubt but perhaps it can be construed as fraud. @ThothAmon enlighten us. thank you for the detailed reply- I find the point I bolded above about the serial number to be a fascinating legal angle that hasn't really been brought up before.

see the scenarios I listed out above. Again, theres no question what he's doing is wrong. But how he is doing wrong is what determines if it is criminally fraudulent. I contend that there are scenarios that he can get away with. Civil fraud is a different matter.

again, to be criminally fraudulent, the devil is in the details. If I crack, press,and clean an old blue label 9.0 Hulk #181 and resub and get back a 9.6 is that fraud? No. If I sell the above, is that fraud? No. if the pressed book shrinks back to it's original imperfections and it no longer appears as a 9.6 and I sell it, is that fraud? No. If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS and by some miracle they don't catch it and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? No. If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends. If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6 Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6 Hulk 181 and stated in the listing that the MVS is intact. THAT'S FRAUD. If I send in a Hulk #181 with a missing MVS that I slipped into another blue labeled slab for a reholder or custom label and I get a blue label 9.6 is that fraud? Maybe? I contend no, because you aren't selling it to them, you are paying for a service from them. If you trick them into giving you a better grade that it deserves you're a bad person, it might violate some CGC terms of use, but it's not criminal. If I sell the Blue label hulk #181 with the missing MVS on ebay is that fraud? Depends. If I listed it as a blue labelCGC 9.6 Hulk 181,well that's what it is. Says so right on the label. NOT FRAUD If I listed it as a a blue labelCGC 9.6 Hulk 181 without a missing MVS. THAT'S FRAUD

if we aren't careful, CGC will turn this PR nightmare into a new revenue stream though it's not going to help turnaround times.

I meant the sports card case. And you are missing the subtlety of what is happening here by a country mile.

that is 100% correct. CGC probably will do something, it will probably not be very transparent, and it will be just good enough, but calculated to not cost them any more than necessary, and most here will not be satisfied. But this particular scammer will not face any criminal penalty, and not especially likely any civil penalty. He might lose his CGC account and have to get his brother in law to front him now.

if that is the case, I'd like to read about exactly that played out, The devil is in the details. Your counterfeit analogy however is not at all an accurate comparison. the act of creating counterfeit currency itself, regardless of whether you pass it off or not is a federal crime.

but that is all that matters. He didn't sell it to CGC. On the contrary, he paid them some fee to perform a service. Again, where's the fraud? He may have violated some terms of use if there is any such fine print by manipulating the slab and CGC not recognizing this, but it's not criminal.

uh huh. SO the book he sold was 100% as it was delivered to him from CGC. IF he had not had it re-holdered and sold the swapped book inside the original holder to anyone, that's is 100% fraudulent. It's not his fault CGC didn't catch on to the subterfuge.

this is getting juicy enough, it's time to phone a friend. @comix4fun can you parse this debate? I see criminal liabilities as questionable at best. Civil is a maybe, but who is liable and who is the injured party?

thank you- you said it with an economy of words I clearly lack!

actually, CGC has unknowingly legitimized his alleged criminal enterprise. Again. where is the fraud? who is the injured party, and who is directly responsible for the injury? I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I know the guy is scumbag, but he's possible a smart and successful one. If he cracked slabs and swapped out books and sold those directly to a person on any forum, THEN he has committed fraud that's pretty black and white. It's just difficult to prove it.

doesn't matter. Not really. What matter is what he SELLS is a genuine CGC slab that has not been altered or cracked and something other than what was certified by CGC with that serial number.