Matt Nelson to set up at Baltimore

[lou_fine]

I don't know any conservators who apply their skills to enhance artifacts who then sell those artifacts..........

 

However, I think nearly all repairs or enhancements, including pressing, can be detected--at least by another conservator.

 

I found both of the above points by Michele Brown to be quite interesting!

 

The first point always raises the issue of conflict of interest and used to be brought up long ago with Mark Wilson and his World's Finest operations. I remember Mark Wilson's books always used to sell only at a big discount in the secondary market because everybody always assumed they were restored even though they couldn't find anything. Probably not a fair assumption. Now we have Matt and his Classics Incorporated operations as the newest game in town.

 

The second point is one that I believe CGC simply uses as a convenient excuse so that they don't have to bother with the very difficult task of trying to detect pressing. They certainly don't use this same excuse when it comes to micro-trimming, especially when it is just as (if not more) difficult to detect, unless you know its passed through the hands of a known trimmer.

[Davenport]

I remember a heated discussion here on reverting of press jobs, and I recall that there was conflicting information.

I remember that too. It may be a controversy in Paper Conservation, not sure. But opinions on it can easily be Googled. Here's two opinions from the 'paper-has-memory' side:

 

MUSEUM-L Archives

"The conservators here at the Ransom Center have always made this point about paper--it tends to have a memory. One wonders quite seriously whether folded and curled documents or photographs might not be apt to curling back up later on even after they're relaxed--paper has a memory, and dry conditions can cause tightness in many media."

 

PRESERVATION CORNER

"You must first ask yourself why you want to flatten the item. If it is to frame or place it in a folder or sleeve so that it can be more easily read, you might want to reconsider and just leave it alone. If the future use and utility of the letter or document warrants flattening, then you should proceed. Paper has a memory and no matter what technique is used it will always want to re-fold, re-curl, or roll-up. This is due to the fact that the individual fiber chains that make up paper have been permanently damaged, and the damage cannot be totally reversed."

 

Anyone know if 'paper-has-memory' is the reason they put linen backing on previously rolled but re-flattened vintage Movie posters? So they won't revert back? (think I read that somewhere...)

 

[sterlingcomics]

Thanks! FYI...what terms did you google? This might be some interesting reading.

[Scheradon]

the pro-pressing group

 

Who's in this "pro-pressing" group?

 

I guess it's everybody that's not in the "militant anti-pressers" group.

[mr.schomburg]

 

We are particularly concerned with documenting and disclosing "non-reversible" treatments, such as washing. Pressing is reversible in that given the right conditions the artifact will return to its creased or folded state. I would say, though, that if I were writing a treatment report I would disclose that I had pressed the item. So, yes, I do consider pressing to be a restoration treatment, but not necessarily a permanent treatment. However, whether or not an object was pressed or treated at all is a part of its "life", and so would be of interest to future owners.

.

 

Awesome. Simply awesome. I also like the idea that those 9.2's pressed into 9.6's and currently in slabs may very well revert over time.

 

Her statement supports perfectly my belief that the buyer has the right to every available piece of information about "the life" of the book. It's the manipulators that have complicated things, not the collectors.

 

this has got to be the best news a guy in mattie's line of work has heard in some time--he'll get to repress books he's already pressed years before and get paid again...and again...and........

 

i had no doubt the militant anti-pressers would find great solace in the little treatise--i feared the clapping graemlin might be lost forever due to the surge. from a lawyer's standpoint, i saw a little too much "i think" and "nearly always" for it to do much for me. however, one of you guys that lives and breathes this issue ought to see if you could hire the lady to inspect your books for pressed specimens, then you could disclose and sell the pariahs and once more have a pristine collection that "against all odds survived the ravages of time" or whatever that mantra is. most academics don't make alot of money, so the moonlighting work ought to be appealing.

 

"We are particularly concerned with documenting and disclosing "non-reversible" treatments, such as washing. Pressing is reversible in that given the right conditions the artifact will return to its creased or folded state. I would say, though, that if I were writing a treatment report I would disclose that I had pressed the item. So, yes, I do consider pressing to be a restoration treatment, but not necessarily a permanent treatment. However, whether or not an object was pressed or treated at all is a part of its "life", and so would be of interest to future owners."

 

Of course I would take this as given the right conditions i.e. rolled up in a coffee can, folded under a couch or put in the "Same Conditions", same still means same right? Then, the process would be reversable. It would stand to reason that if you take a crease out, then fold, store, wrinkle in the same fashion that gave the defect, you would reverse the process. Of course thats just me reading what the lady said, interpretations can always be different.

[Aman619]

no. she is saying that the condirions that caused the roll or defect have permanently affected the paper fiber structure, so that while a "pressing" can make it go away temporarily --- the fibers "memory" remembers the damaged rolled condition and seeks to return to it over time as its "true" shape.

 

now, that makes sense to me, but, one has to ask why the paper doent remember its original shape upon manufacturing, that is, when it is created into a comic book in this case.

 

and even though she is the expert, and I am glad to have her straightout professional opinion that pressing IS restoration, I hink she is ONLY talking about rolled paper.... I dont think that the little creases that Matt presses out allowing CGC to give the book a higher grade are coming back! Spine rolls yes, not imperceptible creases. Theres no memory there.

 

If I were to try to play scientist, Id say its a matter of scale. A spine rolled book affects nearly the entire book: thats a lot of molecules with a memory of being rolled striving to get back into a curve. A tint crease over 1/64th of a cover say doesnt have enough effect over the rest of th ebook to force itself back into a crease.

 

just my laymans opinion.

[Aman619]

thats a long way of saying that you dont have to place the book back in the conditions that rolled it.... it seeks the rolled shape on its own. and further, you shouldnt fight that tendency for fear of damaging the paper.

[Davenport]

Thanks! FYI...what terms did you google? This might be some interesting reading.

I used "paper has memory" in quotes combined with other terms like paper conservation, revert, pressing, etc. It was something I remember reading in the past and the 'paper has memory' stuck in my mind.

 

A great place to search and read articles by Professionals is 'Conservation OnLine' or "CoOL, a project of the Preservation Department of Stanford University Libraries and Academic Information Resources."

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/

 

The difference most striking in that world is how methods, treatments, and results are documented and shared via research articles. In the comic book world all that's a 'trade secret' for some reason.

[Straw-Man]

Thanks! FYI...what terms did you google? This might be some interesting reading.

I used "paper has memory" in quotes combined with other terms like paper conservation, revert, pressing, etc. It was something I remember reading in the past and the 'paper has memory' stuck in my mind.

 

A great place to search and read articles by Professionals is 'Conservation OnLine' or "CoOL, a project of the Preservation Department of Stanford University Libraries and Academic Information Resources."

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/

 

The difference most striking in that world is how methods, treatments, and results are documented and shared via research articles. In the comic book world all that's a 'trade secret' for some reason.

 

tho' it'll probably never happen, as i'm not very creative, IF i ever figure a way to build a better mousetrap, and that mousetrap legally makes me good money in it's application, i think i'm going to keep how i did it to myself instead of telling everyone so they too can utilize my better mousetrap and make the money i was going to make. note this has nothing to do with end-product disclosure, which i like everybody else thinks is a good thing. i just get a kick out of the implied nefariousness of keeping "trade secrets" in our biz.

 

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks! FYI...what terms did you google? This might be some interesting reading.

I used "paper has memory" in quotes combined with other terms like paper conservation, revert, pressing, etc. It was something I remember reading in the past and the 'paper has memory' stuck in my mind.

 

A great place to search and read articles by Professionals is 'Conservation OnLine' or "CoOL, a project of the Preservation Department of Stanford University Libraries and Academic Information Resources."

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/

 

The difference most striking in that world is how methods, treatments, and results are documented and shared via research articles. In the comic book world all that's a 'trade secret' for some reason.

tho' it'll probably never happen, as i'm not very creative, IF i ever figure a way to build a better mousetrap, and that mousetrap legally makes me good money in it's application, i think i'm going to keep how i did it to myself instead of telling everyone so they too can utilize my better mousetrap and make the money i was going to make. note this has nothing to do with end-product disclosure, which i like everybody else thinks is a good thing. i just get a kick out of the implied nefariousness of keeping "trade secrets" in our biz.

No, that doesn't have anything to do with it. It's all some sort of master plan hatched by the Pressing Mafia. Very hush hush.

[FlyingDonut]

the pro-pressing group

 

Who's in this "pro-pressing" group?

 

I guess it's everybody that's not in the "militant anti-pressers" group.

 

What if you're in the "I don't care" group?

[DrWatson]

the pro-pressing group

 

Who's in this "pro-pressing" group?

 

I guess it's everybody that's not in the "militant anti-pressers" group.

 

What if you're in the "I don't care" group?

Your vote doesn't count. Your chad is hung.

[Scheradon]

the pro-pressing group

 

Who's in this "pro-pressing" group?

 

I guess it's everybody that's not in the "militant anti-pressers" group.

 

What if you're in the "I don't care" group?

 

Hey, I don't make these group names up. You just have to keep posting and soon enough someone will let you know what virulent group you're in.

 

I'd maybe go for the, "Whattheheckareyoudoingwastingyourtimeinthisthreadthen Group", but that's just one suggestion.

[Scheradon]

 

We are particularly concerned with documenting and disclosing "non-reversible" treatments, such as washing. Pressing is reversible in that given the right conditions the artifact will return to its creased or folded state. I would say, though, that if I were writing a treatment report I would disclose that I had pressed the item. So, yes, I do consider pressing to be a restoration treatment, but not necessarily a permanent treatment. However, whether or not an object was pressed or treated at all is a part of its "life", and so would be of interest to future owners.

.

 

Awesome. Simply awesome. I also like the idea that those 9.2's pressed into 9.6's and currently in slabs may very well revert over time.

 

Her statement supports perfectly my belief that the buyer has the right to every available piece of information about "the life" of the book. It's the manipulators that have complicated things, not the collectors.

 

this has got to be the best news a guy in mattie's line of work has heard in some time--he'll get to repress books he's already pressed years before and get paid again...and again...and........

 

i had no doubt the militant anti-pressers would find great solace in the little treatise--i feared the clapping graemlin might be lost forever due to the surge. from a lawyer's standpoint, i saw a little too much "i think" and "nearly always" for it to do much for me. however, one of you guys that lives and breathes this issue ought to see if you could hire the lady to inspect your books for pressed specimens, then you could disclose and sell the pariahs and once more have a pristine collection that "against all odds survived the ravages of time" or whatever that mantra is. most academics don't make alot of money, so the moonlighting work ought to be appealing.

 

"We are particularly concerned with documenting and disclosing "non-reversible" treatments, such as washing. Pressing is reversible in that given the right conditions the artifact will return to its creased or folded state. I would say, though, that if I were writing a treatment report I would disclose that I had pressed the item. So, yes, I do consider pressing to be a restoration treatment, but not necessarily a permanent treatment. However, whether or not an object was pressed or treated at all is a part of its "life", and so would be of interest to future owners."

 

Of course I would take this as given the right conditions i.e. rolled up in a coffee can, folded under a couch or put in the "Same Conditions", same still means same right? Then, the process would be reversable. It would stand to reason that if you take a crease out, then fold, store, wrinkle in the same fashion that gave the defect, you would reverse the process. Of course thats just me reading what the lady said, interpretations can always be different.

 

mr.schomburg,

 

If she was to mean the "same" conditions, which is not at all what she said, then I believe she would have used that word. I think it's pretty obvious to anyone that putting a comic back into the "same" predicament that caused the defects in the first place, then you will see similar defects resurface...even on a book that had no previous defects.

 

By "right" conditions, this could mean a host of circumstances. Perhaps even stored at a certain humidity, heat, etc. could cause to book to revert back to certain degrees.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Of course I would take this as given the right conditions i.e. rolled up in a coffee can, folded under a couch or put in the "Same Conditions", same still means same right?

 

It certainly does. (thumbs u

 

But as she didn't use that word, or imply those circumstances....

[mr.schomburg]

Thats what you get posting at 3 am! Your right she doesn't say same! My Bad!

 

[TheShadowKnows]

 

It is one thing to refuse to patronize a business because their service or products are terrible. It is another thing to picket someone's business because you don't like the way they conduct their business.

 

Richard .....I see absolutely nothing wrong with refusing to do business with someone because you don't like the way they conduct their business, and saying so publicly. That is a 100% legit reason.

 

Isn't that every consumer's right?

 

The two conditions you mention above are not separate. They're the same thing. I consider an undisclosed pressed book a bad product, and the dealer passing it off on me a provider of bad service.

 

I haven't seen anyone "picket" anyone at a convention.

 

Yet.

But didnt Richard say that he would openly and honestly disclose any knowldege if one of his books was pressed? That is the point I got.

As he did wth the USA comic in this very thread.If you dont want a pressed book dont buy it.At least he is honest enough to tell you.In this current climate that is as good as you will get.Only my humble opinion.

D