It Come Down To It... The BEGINNING and the END of the Copper Age!

[Kevin Boyd]

Also, each age sees a change in distribution system. In Silver, the shackles are removed from Marvel and they are gradually allowed more titles in the late 1960's, and while DC and Marvel are succeeding the older companies that don't publish superheroes are gradually disappearing.

 

Bronze, obviously, sees massive changes in the way that comics are distributed with the rise of the direct market while the regular distribution networks are ordering fewer comics.

 

Copper sees massive growth in the direct market that builds to a massive crash as too many straws break that camel's back. The direct market system is definitely damaged after the speculative boom ends around 1993-1994 and many stores don't survive the transition.

 

Modern sees consolidation in what's left of the direct market and a gradual shift towards book publishing and now that we are in the second half of our current age, you start seeing the same declines in new comic book sales seen around the mid-points of the previous two "ages" as publishers start looking more and more to the bookstores for their revenues while the direct market stumbles along and stores make the transition from being comic stores to book and pop culture stores.

 

[shiverbones]

Man of steel #1 had an incentive issue if I remember correctly.

 

For me copper is an early 80's beginning, maybe 1981-1983, not a definite month, but all of the following lead to it:

 

- Contest of champions - Usher in the "Event" style of story telling & mini series

- ASM238 - Beginning one of the most popular storylines of the 80's, and a definite shift in the way ASM stories were told.

- The Death of the other Genres, such as House of Mysteries #321, the last gasp in 1983 ending the horror market, the fading of the war market at the same time, as well as western. All genres kept alive by newstand distribution which was a dwindling relic.

- The changes in Batman at the time - Catwoman as a heroine & back up character, The intro of Jason Todd

- GI Joe #1

- The death of Elektra & the aftermath of the miller run,

- X-men #144, aftermath of the byrne run

- The New Mutants - 1st x-men spin-off

 

more I am sure I am forgetting, like the flash trial running the last 30-some issues of flash, another dramatic & different style of storytelling

 

All of the examples of a shift in storytelling lead to things like Moore's swampthing, which leads to Dark Knight, Watchmen, etc

 

Where does it end? For me, it was obvious by the late 80's things were starting to fracture. Some of the dramatic changing points for me - Spider-man #1 ushering the image wave, Sandman #1 - ushering in the Vertigo wave, the death of superman, I'd say by 1993 the events had shifted into a very different market then came before.

[Jamie Coville]

Kevin,

 

If it were up to me, we'd ditch the Golden/Silver/Bronze/Copper/Chrome/etc ages. Mainly because A) We're eventually going to run out of decent names and B) Most of these are based on the rise/fall/a twist in Superhero comics. Comics is a medium, not a genre we shouldn't tie the entire history to one genre. Crime, Western, Horror, Romance and Licensed books (particularly Walt Disney Comics and Stories) were extremely important in the history of comics and yet they all kinda fall in-between the beginning of Superman and the revamp of the Flash.

 

I'd put the ages at:

Newsstand (Part 1 and 2, split up by the fall of American News Service), Underground,

Direct (possibly split in 2 parts, from when Diamond became a monopoly, but I think it's too early to say if it's worthy of a split),

A side for Promotional Comics (giveaways done outside of these markets).

 

and new periods are Bookstore and Internet/Web distribution.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

I understand what you are trying to say Jamie, but I still don't have a problem with our existing definitions for what are, essentially, definitions for the ages of mainstream superhero comics. I fear that perhaps you've spent too much time hanging with the artcomics crowd who seem to have developed a paranoia over the continued success of a genre they don't particularly care for.

 

We've traditionally used the Gold, Silver and Bronze standards to define what are essentially the First, Second and Third popular ages of the history of comic book publications, and those of us who primarily focus on the most popular genre of comic book publishing - superheroes.

 

I can understand the need to ditch the metal designations, but I don't think it's incorrect to alter the meaning behind them. The Golden Age is essentially the 1st Great Age of American Comic Books and can incorporate a prehistory phase (what is referred to at this time as Platinum) but the first great "boom" of comic book publishing - the late 1930's to the early 1950s - is an era predominant with superhero comics.

 

There is a reimagining period where superheroes fade to the background and social issues and changing society patterns brought new genres to the forefront (such as crime, horror, movie/tv, science fiction) during what we refer to as the "Atomic Age". But these are buffer years between the decline of super-hero comics and their rise in the mid-to-late 1950's so that by the time the 1960's are well underway the popular genres of the fifties are distant memories - monsters, war, western, romance and so on. For most of the late 1950's companies like Marvel were living on the inventories they had accumulated in the other genres. When the lifeblood returned it was with the super-heroes in the 2nd great age.

 

The rise of the 2nd Great Age of American Comic Books absolutely begins with DC's revival of the superhero but also their emphasis on science fiction and fantasy which in turn leads Marvel to apply their own pseudo-science to create new super-heroes but also throw in a healthy dash of their popular monster comics. There is ABSOLUTELY a paradigm shift back to super-heroes as the predominant genre in comics publishing during this time period, and no other genre has been able to assert that kind of interest. Even though other types of comics are published, during the 2nd Age (the Silver Age) many of these genres begin to fade away and have no impact on the creative direction of American comic books.

 

Since there is no real decline in the superhero as the predominant seller after the 2nd Age we break it down by overarching shifts in storytelling as well as corporate dynamics and publishing approaches.

 

In the late 1960's Kirby leaves Marvel and goes to DC, Adams and O'Neil reinvent superheroes as social communication tools in both Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow, horror themes are allowed back into comics publishing, a societal interest in fantasy and science fiction leads to more fantasy characters and settings and anti-heroes begin to pop up as leading characters instead of supporting ones. Since there is a noticable change in attitude in most comics (except perhaps stagnant Archie) we refer to this as the Third Great Age of American Comics (the Bronze Age).

 

Again, there's no discernable break but we are generally of the concensus that the third great age began to fizzle out in the early 1980's and something new came forward - the old universes were streamlined and new creative voices dominated. The change in the distribution system did allow for experimentation and the exploration of new genres. Comics became more adult in nature in the 1980's and by 1986 we are almost all in agreement that things are well into the Fourth Great Age of American Comics (what we are calling Copper) and most of us feel that we are now in the Fifth Great Age of American Comics and enjoy discussing what may or may not have been the dividing lines between the Third and the Fourth and the Fourth and the Fifth.

 

Publishing formats and distribution systems are important, but generally, when we are discussing these "ages" or eras in comic book history we are looking at the themes and content of the comic books that dominate each era.

 

And while I appreciate other genres, aside from the Atomic Age (fueled by the rise and fall of EC Comics in the 1950s which led to the formation of the comics code and the castration of adult genres in American comic books) there has not been a time where superhero comics have not been the dominant genre.

[40sJohn]

I understand what you are trying to say Jamie, but I still don't have a problem with our existing definitions for what are, essentially, definitions for the ages of mainstream superhero comics. I fear that perhaps you've spent too much time hanging with the artcomics crowd who seem to have developed a paranoia over the continued success of a genre they don't particularly care for.

 

We've traditionally used the Gold, Silver and Bronze standards to define what are essentially the First, Second and Third popular ages of the history of comic book publications, and those of us who primarily focus on the most popular genre of comic book publishing - superheroes.

 

I can understand the need to ditch the metal designations, but I don't think it's incorrect to alter the meaning behind them. The Golden Age is essentially the 1st Great Age of American Comic Books and can incorporate a prehistory phase (what is referred to at this time as Platinum) but the first great "boom" of comic book publishing - the late 1930's to the early 1950s - is an era predominant with superhero comics.

 

There is a reimagining period where superheroes fade to the background and social issues and changing society patterns brought new genres to the forefront (such as crime, horror, movie/tv, science fiction) during what we refer to as the "Atomic Age". But these are buffer years between the decline of super-hero comics and their rise in the mid-to-late 1950's so that by the time the 1960's are well underway the popular genres of the fifties are distant memories - monsters, war, western, romance and so on. For most of the late 1950's companies like Marvel were living on the inventories they had accumulated in the other genres. When the lifeblood returned it was with the super-heroes in the 2nd great age.

 

The rise of the 2nd Great Age of American Comic Books absolutely begins with DC's revival of the superhero but also their emphasis on science fiction and fantasy which in turn leads Marvel to apply their own pseudo-science to create new super-heroes but also throw in a healthy dash of their popular monster comics. There is ABSOLUTELY a paradigm shift back to super-heroes as the predominant genre in comics publishing during this time period, and no other genre has been able to assert that kind of interest. Even though other types of comics are published, during the 2nd Age (the Silver Age) many of these genres begin to fade away and have no impact on the creative direction of American comic books.

 

Since there is no real decline in the superhero as the predominant seller after the 2nd Age we break it down by overarching shifts in storytelling as well as corporate dynamics and publishing approaches.

 

In the late 1960's Kirby leaves Marvel and goes to DC, Adams and O'Neil reinvent superheroes as social communication tools in both Batman and Green Lantern/Green Arrow, horror themes are allowed back into comics publishing, a societal interest in fantasy and science fiction leads to more fantasy characters and settings and anti-heroes begin to pop up as leading characters instead of supporting ones. Since there is a noticable change in attitude in most comics (except perhaps stagnant Archie) we refer to this as the Third Great Age of American Comics (the Bronze Age).

 

Again, there's no discernable break but we are generally of the concensus that the third great age began to fizzle out in the early 1980's and something new came forward - the old universes were streamlined and new creative voices dominated. The change in the distribution system did allow for experimentation and the exploration of new genres. Comics became more adult in nature in the 1980's and by 1986 we are almost all in agreement that things are well into the Fourth Great Age of American Comics (what we are calling Copper) and most of us feel that we are now in the Fifth Great Age of American Comics and enjoy discussing what may or may not have been the dividing lines between the Third and the Fourth and the Fourth and the Fifth.

 

Publishing formats and distribution systems are important, but generally, when we are discussing these "ages" or eras in comic book history we are looking at the themes and content of the comic books that dominate each era.

 

And while I appreciate other genres, aside from the Atomic Age (fueled by the rise and fall of EC Comics in the 1950s which led to the formation of the comics code and the castration of adult genres in American comic books) there has not been a time where superhero comics have not been the dominant genre.

 

Well said.

[Jamie Coville]

I don't want to get into a back and forth argument, I do agree that Superheroes are comics "killer app" (software jargon) for lack of a better term. I'm not suggesting an alternative method of describing comic history because I don't like superhero comics. I grew up on them and still read them on occasion, I just read other stuff too. Right now I'm debating on weather I should read Essential Marvel Super-Villain Team Up or watch a movie.

 

My main reason for my method is I think distribution had a major effect on the types of comic stories we saw and how they were done. A promotion comic is quite different than a newsstand comic. Same goes for the underground books, web comics, and graphic novels aimed primarily at the bookstores (not by Marvel and DC, but even their book store aimed books are a little different).

 

While some may not recognize this, the direct market also had a major influence on the types of comics we saw. We saw a lot more niche material that wouldn't have a chance at surviving on a mass market newsstand. First there's all the small & self publishers material. But also the major publishers catered their stories to the die hard fans with a lot more emphasis on continuity and multi-title crossovers. They could do this due to the efficiencies of the direct market and it's clientèle of die hard fans.

 

I don't necessarily agree that comics most successful times were when Superheroes were in full bloom. Walt Disney Comics and Stories was the best selling comic bar none on a regular basis. It's downfall was due to internal issues and distribution problems rather than lower sales. I'm not sure they would be around today but if Archie adapted via the grocery store checkout, maybe they could have too.

 

Crime and Romance had numbers that were very strong and I believe on par with superhero books at their strongest. And lets not forget about Archie Comics which remained in the the top 10 titles even during the 70s. The whole 'Atom Age' period came about because Superheroes were no longer selling. If it wasn't for licensing (especially TV shows) and certain creator contracts they might have disappeared altogether.

 

Superheroes were hot in the early 40s and late 50's/early 60's. Marvel had the slowest decline of their sales, with occasional upticks while everybody else's dropped at a much quicker rate since the late 60s. One might argue that had not the industry from editors to freelancers not been die hard superhero fans, more different titles might have been tried and been successful. I can't find sales figures at the moment, but I suspect Conan, Shang-Chi, Howard the Duck, Creepy and Eerie, MAD, Archie, among others were among the more successful comics of the 70s (even the debut of Swamp Thing, a horror book, was the most popular book when it was published). But I don't think the industry capitalized on new genre's of comics because we had superhero fans trying to write horror under CCA restrictions and recycled romance comics from the 50s. That they sold badly is of no surprise.

 

But through it all, even though superhero sales as a whole kept dropping (with exceptions of characters appearing on TV), they continued pumping out more of the same. With rare exceptions (like Defenders and additional Spider-Man titles) new superhero titles didn't last very long and they still don't. I'm not so sure we can call the last 40 years a "boom" because of superhero books. Comics are still around but sales trends indicate it's been a decline, and I think the main reason for superhero comics still being around is due to die hard collectors.

 

There have been some spikes in sales but I don't think we could say they were due to superhero comics becoming popular again. Star Wars and GI Joe were major gateways into comics in the early 80s (plus we had a new distribution system which supplanted an old inefficient one), the Batman movie and later speculation drove up sales in the 90s. Beyond that sales have mainly dropped, with certain exceptions of quality runs on particular long standing titles, but even then the overall sales are in decline.

 

It's only the the last 5 years that sales overall have improved and while quality Superhero books (with better promotion ie Civil War) have played a role in that improvement, I would place the success more to the Graphic Novel format and sales charts will show you the best sellers include a mix of genres.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

>> My main reason for my method is I think distribution had a major effect on the types of comic stories we saw and how they were done. A promotion comic is quite different than a newsstand comic. Same goes for the underground books, web comics, and graphic novels aimed primarily at the bookstores (not by Marvel and DC, but even their book store aimed books are a little different).

 

Obviously WHERE you market your books has some impact. But up until the rise of the direct market, all comics were sold at the same types of locations - book sellers, corner stores, supermarkets, etc. But those locations rejected comics because of poor unit sales in comparison to regular magazine. By the late 1980's that is pretty much the case again, the only real venue for comics is in direct market comic shops where the core buying audience is obsessed with super-heroes.

 

>> While some may not recognize this, the direct market also had a major influence on the types of comics we saw. We saw a lot more niche material that wouldn't have a chance at surviving on a mass market newsstand. First there's all the small & self publishers material. But also the major publishers catered their stories to the die hard fans with a lot more emphasis on continuity and multi-title crossovers. They could do this due to the efficiencies of the direct market and it's clientèle of die hard fans.

 

Yes, the direct market allowed for more low-selling vanity projects because the threshhold for profitability on these books was much lower. Distributors in the direct market were supportive of this material, as were shop owners, but please Jamie, cite me some examples of a best-selling non-superhero title that dominated the sales charts at any time from the conception of the direct market. Please don't mistake CRITICAL acclaim with sales acclaim.

 

>> I don't necessarily agree that comics most successful times were when Superheroes were in full bloom. Walt Disney Comics and Stories was the best selling comic bar none on a regular basis. It's downfall was due to internal issues and distribution problems rather than lower sales. I'm not sure they would be around today but if Archie adapted via the grocery store checkout, maybe they could have too.

 

Perhaps they could have. But one example does not make up a market or, truly, a popular genre. Even if you were to include Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, Uncle Scrooge... you have a small group of anomalous best-sellers that are selling to a specific group of children. Mad Magazine is another anomaly, continually published as a magazine, but no similar product has maintained an audience for as long.

 

>> Crime and Romance had numbers that were very strong and I believe on par with superhero books at their strongest.

 

Yes, I mentioned that. They were top sellers during the late 1940's and 1950's. They actually surpassed what few superhero titles there were - although I don't have any sales data to suggest they were outselling Batman/Detective/Superman/Action. Perhaps if you do have sales data from the 1950's you could pass that source along?

 

>> And lets not forget about Archie Comics which remained in the the top 10 titles even during the 70s. The whole 'Atom Age' period came about because Superheroes were no longer selling. If it wasn't for licensing (especially TV shows) and certain creator contracts they might have disappeared altogether.

 

Superheroes were a classic example of "overkill" in the 1940's, and were strongly supported during wartime. With the return to normalcy in the late 1940's the audience was sick of them and wanted to be entertained with other genres... the "Atom Age" came about larger because Gaines and his crew of creatives started pushing boundaries and found an audience that loved the material. Superman and Batman however, were not low-selling titles supported by licensing and creator contracts! The only applicable one there was Wonder Woman, where the contract would have gone back to Marston if publication had ceased (another reason for the continuation of WW which has never been a big seller, aside from the occasional reboot). Certainly the Superman tv show helped keep the character in the public eye, but Superman and Batman were about as much the backbone of comics publishing as Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck during that time period and were in no danger of disappearing like their 1940's counterparts.

 

>> Superheroes were hot in the early 40s and late 50's/early 60's.

 

And the 1970's and the 1980's and the 1990's and the 2000's.

 

>> Marvel had the slowest decline of their sales, with occasional upticks while everybody else's dropped at a much quicker rate since the late 60s.

 

There's no debate over declining sales here. But Marvel and DC heroes still dominate the sales charts over all other genres during the 70's through to today. While they may have declined, their decline was nowhere near as fast or as noticable as every other genre. Even the best movie/tv tie-ins are mid-level sellers.

 

>> One might argue that had not the industry from editors to freelancers not been die hard superhero fans, more different titles might have been tried and been successful.

 

While I agree that they are fans, and that this is why characters and concepts that fail are revived regularly, publishers produce what SELLS. They do try, on a regular basis to "test" the market with other concepts, but where are the successes? Maybe Vertigo titles? Walking Dead?

 

>> I can't find sales figures at the moment, but I suspect Conan, Shang-Chi, Howard the Duck, Creepy and Eerie, MAD, Archie, among others were among the more successful comics of the 70s (even the debut of Swamp Thing, a horror book, was the most popular book when it was published).

 

Conan, Master of Kung Fu, Howard the Duck --- these were marketted as super-hero titles! Conan was a success, but it was because they applied the Marvel method and one of their best creative teams at the time and tapped into an audience that was interested in fantasy, but Conan was marketted by Marvel as one of their super-heroes... and they even tied his history (as well as Kull and Red Sonja) in to the Marvel Universe. Shang Chi is a kung-fu superhero (Iron Fist even more so). Howard the Duck's success was short-lived, but he was a talking duck in the Marvel Universe. These are peripheral super-heroes.

 

Creepy and Eerie were successful, as was Heavy Metal. But remember what I said earlier about Walt Disney Comics (and the same can be said about Archie) these are very limited anomalies in the comic book publishing industry.

 

Swamp Thing was so popular they cancelled his title less than two years after it had started, so you better check on where you are getting your source material about it being the best-selling book of it's time. Critically acclaimed yes. Best-selling, it started off okay and declined quickly enough but was fondly remembered enough to warrant revivals. Even Alan Moore's Swamp Thing was not a huge seller, it was just critically acclaimed and sold well enough then to warrant continuation (unlike the character's 1970's run). But Swamp Thing, like Man-Thing, Ghost Rider, Son of Satan, etc. was a horror SUPER-HERO! He crossed over with Batman. He occupied his own bizarre corner of the super-hero universe.

 

>> But I don't think the industry capitalized on new genre's of comics because we had superhero fans trying to write horror under CCA restrictions and recycled romance comics from the 50s. That they sold badly is of no surprise.

 

So other genres sold badly because they were of poor quality because the superhero fans who were creating comics at the time weren't interested? That's kind of twisted logic. How about the books of those genres weren't being supported or given any attention by publishers because they weren't selling. No publisher is going to kill a genre that's selling, if there's an audience they would have found people to create them. Archie Comics is an example of this.

 

>> But through it all, even though superhero sales as a whole kept dropping (with exceptions of characters appearing on TV), they continued pumping out more of the same. With rare exceptions (like Defenders and additional Spider-Man titles) new superhero titles didn't last very long and they still don't. I'm not so sure we can call the last 40 years a "boom" because of superhero books. Comics are still around but sales trends indicate it's been a decline, and I think the main reason for superhero comics still being around is due to die hard collectors.

 

Jamie, everything is relative. Long-running titles get revamped regularly to boost sales, but many best-selling super-heroes fade away only to come back again. Thor, for example, or Iron Fist. If it wasn't for the continued success of super-hero comics we wouldn't have a direct market, and by extension, a comic book industry at all. And yes, we owe a lot to the die-hard collectors, for which one would not have a support base for any types of material. But would there be a Chester Brown, Seth, Dave Sim, Matt Wagner, Bill WIllingham and so on if it wasn't for superhero comics? The all have admitted that this is where they first enjoyed comics and became interested in making them... they may not all particularly like them now, but at the time that is what got them interested in comics.

 

>> There have been some spikes in sales but I don't think we could say they were due to superhero comics becoming popular again. Star Wars and GI Joe were major gateways into comics in the early 80s (plus we had a new distribution system which supplanted an old inefficient one), the Batman movie and later speculation drove up sales in the 90s. Beyond that sales have mainly dropped, with certain exceptions of quality runs on particular long standing titles, but even then the overall sales are in decline.

 

Would Star Wars and GI Joe comics have been as popular if they were not Marvel Comics and distributed as part of the new distribution system that saved comic book publishing from virtual extinction? I'm not denying that direct market distribution is NICHE marketting.

 

>> It's only the the last 5 years that sales overall have improved and while quality Superhero books (with better promotion ie Civil War) have played a role in that improvement, I would place the success more to the Graphic Novel format and sales charts will show you the best sellers include a mix of genres.

 

I don't see the quality on super-hero titles being any better or worse than they have been at any time in their publishing history. Again, you can point to two or three anomalous sales entries each month for a comics genre other than superheroes, but the sheer volume of material on those ICV2 sales charts remains superhero comics. Everyone may read and support Fables, Y and the Walking Dead... but they aren't the norm, they are the exceptions... and they are marginal and low selling periodicals outside of the graphic novel format (as were Sandman and Preacher during their heydays.

 

The only real success story of late is manga, which is appealing to a new audience. And we are not including manga in any of these discussions.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

This discussion does, in some respects, belong in the modern comics section....

 

Anecdotally, what are profitable sales for any book in publishing? Jamie, your arguments remind me of a conversation I had with Walter D. the other day about just what books are driving the sales in the comic book industry, and why is the book industry interested in graphic novels as a money earning format.

 

I think it has to do with the volume of sales generated, and you mentioned that the sales of comics have been in decline for many years, and I would challenge you to find any periodical where that ISN'T the case, as periodical sales are not healthy in any segment... comics are lucky in the sense that the material can be adapted and re-published in a "perennial" format. Cosmopolitan, Rolling Stone, Maxim, Time and such don't necessarily have that luxury, nor are they generally collected. One might say that sales of 50,000 units is not great compared to 200,000 units years ago, but these are units SOLD as opposed to units published. If 75% or more of your run is not sold but returned to the distributor (as most magazines are). Maxim may have a print run of 1/2 a million copies, but does it sell that many copies? You would have to ask your corner stores and book sellers how many actual units they move of each magazine received. Sellouts are very uncommon.

 

Comics publishers do have the luxury of printing to order and while superhero fans are still supporting the periodicals it is apparant that those who support other genres are NOT supporting the periodicals in great numbers... (23,000 copies sold of the Walking Dead puts it at number 102 of the top 300, although the trade is the best selling trade in September with 13,000+ units sold). The people that support other genres aren't supporting the periodicals and they are being trained to wait for the trade... Buffy the Vampire Slayer aside (which can be attributed to who is making the comic, and each issue has a variant, as much as what the comic is about).

 

But let's look at the trades....

 

September ICV2 GN sales:

 

I've heard publishers say that a successful book published in the regular market sells about 5,000 actual copies, although considerably more are actually published. But if I choose a cutoff number of half of that (2500 copies sold to the DM) let's see what we get:

 

 

QtyRank Index Title Price Pub Est.Qty

 

1 17.97 WALKING DEAD VOL 7 CALM BEFORE TP (MR) $12.99 IMA 13,203

2 13.86 MARVEL ZOMBIES ARMY OF DARKNESS HC $19.99 MAR 10,183

3 10.87 ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN VOL 18 ULTIMATE KNIGHTS TP $15.99 MAR 7,986

4 10.6 52 VOL 3 TP $19.99 DC 7,788

5 9.73 HELLBOY VOL 7 TROLL WITCH & OTHERS TP $17.95 DAR 7,149

6 8.3 DMZ VOL 3 PUBLIC WORKS TP (MR) $12.99 DC 6,098

7 7.12 NARUTO VOL 18 TP $7.95 VIZ 5,231

8 7.09 NARUTO VOL 17 TP $7.95 VIZ 5,209

9 6.95 NARUTO VOL 16 TP $7.95 VIZ 5,106

 

Here's the 5000 copy mark. And what have we got? 3 manga, 4 superhero (I count Hellboy as a superhero), 1 horror and 1 other (DMZ).

 

10 6.11 PUNISHER MAX VOL 8 WIDOWMAKER TP (MR) $17.99 MAR 4,489

11 6.1 JUSTICE SOCIETY O/AMERICA VOL 1 NEXT AGE HC $19.99 DC 4,482

12 5.83 PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL VOL 1 CIVIL WAR TP $14.99 MAR 4,283

13 5.81 TEEN TITANS VOL 7 TITANS EAST TP $14.99 DC 4,269

14 5.54 DAREDEVIL DEVIL HELL TO PAY VOL 1 TP $14.99 MAR 4,070

15 5.29 SHOWCASE PRESENTS BATMAN A/OUTSIDERS VOL 1 TP $16.99

DC 3,887

16 5.04 BERSERK VOL 19 TP (MR) $13.95 DAR 3,703

17 4.81 WOLVERINE ORIGINS VOL 2 SAVIOR TP $13.99 MAR 3,534

18 4.65 SILENT WAR TP $14.99 MAR 3,416

19 4.55 SHOWCASE PRESENTS METAL MEN VOL 1 TP $16.99 DC 3,343

20 4.49 HELLBLAZER THE GIFT TP (MR) $14.99 DC 3,299

21 4.32 CONFESSIONS OF A BLABBERMOUTH $9.99 DC 3,174

22 4.28 LOKI TP $12.99 MAR 3,145

23 4.23 MS MARVEL VOL 2 CIVIL WAR TP $14.99 MAR 3,108

24 4.21 STAR WARS 30TH ANNIV COLL VOL 8 HC SPLINTER O/MINDS EYE

$19.95 DAR 3,093

25 4.18 PATH O/ASSASSIN VOL 7 TP (MR) $9.95 DAR 3,071

 

16 items sold between 3K-49.9K and the breakdown is even more startling - 11 superhero titles, 2 manga, 1 horror, 1 science fiction/movie tie-in, 1 other (Blabbermouth)

 

26 4.08 JACK KIRBYS FOURTH WORLD OMNIBUS VOL 2 HC $49.99 DC

2,998

27 4.04 THUNDERBOLTS BY ELLIS VOL 1 FAITH IN MONSTERS PREM HC

$24.99 MAR 2,968

28 4.03 GREEN ARROW BLACK CANARY FOR BETTER OR WORSE TP

$14.99 DC 2,961

29 4.02 ENCYCLOPEDIA O/COMICBOOK HEROES VOL 3 SUPERMAN

$19.99 DC 2,954

30 3.97 PUNISHER PRESENTS BARRACUDA MAX TP (MR) $17.99 MAR 2,917

31 3.95 DONALD DUCK CASE O/MISSING MUMMY TP $8.99 GEM 2,902

32 3.81 SUPERGIRL & LEGION DOMINATOR WAR TP $14.99 DC 2,799

33 3.81 ESSENTIAL PUNISHER VOL 2 TP $16.99 MAR 2,799

34 3.8 CAPTAIN AMERICA RED WHITE & BLUE TP $19.99 MAR 2,792

35 3.78 CAPTAIN AMERICA BY ED BRUBAKER OMNIBUS VOL 1 HC

$74.99 MAR 2,777

36 3.59 AVENGERS DEFENDERS WAR PREMIERE HC* $19.99 MAR 2,638

37 3.4 GHOST RIDER TRAIL OF TEARS PREMIERE HC $19.99 MAR 2,498

38 3.38 ION VOL 2 DYING FLAME TP $14.99 DC 2,483

39 3.3 WATCHMEN TP $19.99 DC 2,425

40 3.27 CHECKMATE VOL 2 PAWN BREAKS TP $14.99 DC 2,403

41 3.2 DR THIRTEEN ARCHITECTURE & MORALITY TP $14.99 DC 2,351

42 3.11 SUPERMAN DEATH & RETURN O/SUPERMAN OMNIBUS HC $75.00

DC 2,285

43 3.1 BATTLE ANGEL ALITA LAST ORDER VOL 9 TP $9.99 VIZ 2,278

44 2.97 SWORD O/ATOM TP $19.99 DC 2,182

45 2.89 BOYS VOL 1 TP (MR) $14.99 DYN 2,123

46 2.86 CIVIL WAR TP $24.99 MAR 2,101

47 2.8 BATMAN GOTHIC TP NEW EDITION $14.99 DC 2,057

 

22 items sold between 2K and 2.9K and guess what? 20 superhero titles, 1 manga and 1 other (Donald Duck).

 

Now the remaining half of the top 100 sold between 1-1.9K and of those 53 items the breakdown is 19 superheroes and 34 non-superheroes (15 of which are manga).

 

In the end you get 54 superheroes, 20 manga, 10 horror and 16 other. So it is still completely correct to point out that super-heroes dominate (over half of the titles in the top 100, the majority of which were in the higher units sold half), while manga sales are nothing to take lightly, and other genres do have a presence they are, as I continue to suggest, the exceptions, not the rules. While I think it is great that they represent well on the charts, they are almost 1 for every five superhero title.

 

 

[DrWatson]

This thread has officially turned into one of those Sunday comic strips that uses too many words.

[awe4one]

In the end you get 54 superheroes, 20 manga, 10 horror and 16 other. So it is still completely correct to point out that super-heroes dominate (over half of the titles in the top 100, the majority of which were in the higher units sold half), while manga sales are nothing to take lightly, and other genres do have a presence they are, as I continue to suggest, the exceptions, not the rules. While I think it is great that they represent well on the charts, they are almost 1 for every five superhero title.

 

Superheroes dominate. Have for decades and will continue to do so until the format dies out. I'm surprised anyone would argue otherwise.

 

The reason people do make the statement is their belief that IF things had been different, i.e. other genres were supported in the DM more, then we would somehow see monthly comics selling better than they are currently. I'm not sure the rational has merit, and there is really no way to substantiate the argument anyway.

 

Jim

[HouseofComics.Com]

<>

 

I like this point and agree it's very helpful. Not as helpful as licensing money, but helpful. Dave Sim said that if he had to make a living just on his monthly Cerebus he would've stopped the whole thing shortly after issue #100. But not a month went by after 1977 that he didn't make something off reprints of #1. So the republishing was very important to him.

 

<>

 

This isn't a great comparison because the magazines mostly rely on incredibly cheap subscriptions. You can get Esquire or Maxim for $1 an issue vs. what, $5 on the newsstand? I'd imagine that newsstand and subscriptions are basically aimed at break-even, and all the money is from advertising.

 

 

<

 

I've heard publishers say that a successful book published in the regular market sells about 5,000 actual copies, although considerably more are actually published.>>

 

I like this info but haven't the big crossover successes done tons more than this? Ie, hasn't Persepolis sold 100,000 units through bookstores? I got that impression from a few articles (Like the one in the New York Times Sunday Magazine) a year or two ago. That pounds a lot of the superhero stuff.

 

Marc

[cannonfodder]

This thread has officially turned into one of those Sunday comic strips that uses too many words.

 

I find myself agreeing with the doc.

[Kevin Boyd]

<>

 

Right, although how many people do you know who subscribe to magazines other than professional offices? My brother used to get Sports Illustrated... but comics also USED to derive a lot of income from subscriptions. Aside from a handful of titles that's another sales avenue that has been closed off, and we used to make money from advertising, that's fallen away as well.

 

<>

 

Marc, how many crossover successes have there been aside from Persepolis? Here's a few I can think of:

 

Maus

Watchmen

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

In the Shadow of No Towers

V for Vendetta

Blankets

Jimmy Corrigan

Fun Home

From Hell

300

Sin City

Bone

Ultimate Spider-Man

Sandman

Batman: Year One

Marvels

Kingdom Come

 

There are some with potential, like 30 Days of Night, The Dark Tower: Gunslinger Reborn.

 

Here's a link to Amazon's best-selling comics and graphic novels.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/4390/ref=pd_ts_b_nav/105-6198150-9521219

and they do break down GNs into the following categories: Fantasy, General, Horror, Mystery, Science Fiction & Superheroes. I notice a fair amount of strip material gets lumped in.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

This thread has officially turned into one of those Sunday comic strips that uses too many words.

 

I find myself agreeing with the doc.

 

Then don't read them.

[cannonfodder]

This thread has officially turned into one of those Sunday comic strips that uses too many words.

 

I find myself agreeing with the doc.

 

Then don't read them.

 

There are too many words, so obviously I am not.

[awe4one]

Right, although how many people do you know who subscribe to magazines other than professional offices?

 

I know at least a dozen people that get some type of mag through subscription. I myself sub to three and my wife at least 5.

 

And CBG would be dead without subs...

 

Jim

[cannonfodder]

Right, although how many people do you know who subscribe to magazines other than professional offices?

 

I know at least a dozen people that get some type of mag through subscription. I myself sub to three and my wife at least 5.

 

And CBG would be dead without subs...

 

Jim

 

I get about 8 mags a month through a sub (Popular Science, TV Guide, Computer Gaming World, Car & Driver, etc.), but they're all free so I guess that doesn't help the publishers much. Want some free mags of your own? Check here regularly:

 

Free mags

[Kevin Boyd]

Sorry, not enough words.

[Kevin Boyd]

No offense to the fine people at CBG, but it is dead except for subs.

[Kevin Boyd]

The reason people do make the statement is their belief that IF things had been different, i.e. other genres were supported in the DM more, then we would somehow see monthly comics selling better than they are currently. I'm not sure the rational has merit, and there is really no way to substantiate the argument anyway.

 

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'd say other genres weren't/aren't ordered because they weren't selling/don't sell, someone else would argue that they weren't/aren't selling because no one was/is ordering them. Either way, they aren't ordered and those that are aren't really selling that well as periodicals (at least not in the DM).