Disturbing Trend

[fantastic_four]

What's the defect on the Hulk 144 you missed?

 

That's the only risk I've found in my grading of books. I feel that I've got a similar 1 to 2 notch margin of error that CGC does EXCEPT when I miss a hard-to-spot defect. That's the main reason I look at CGC as a better grader than me--they've got 3 people looking it over to lower the chance of overlooking defects. I haven't submitted enough books to have any horror stories about getting lower grades than I expected, but once it does happen, it's important that you treat each and every mistake as a learning experience and maximize the impact on how you grade so that you don't keep getting lower grades than expected.

[Aces]

Standard On-Time 15 business days up to $1000 n/a $49.00

 

"Business days"

 

OK... Give it another week then.

Next week I should be getting my books back.

[BEAUMONTS]

No the back looks perfect, but even though it graded only a 8.0 it doesn't matter, it looks like a NM to me and I'm extremely happy with it.

[BEAUMONTS]

Back cover http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/be/beaumonts/ebay097.jpg

[Aces]

Did you check the insides before sending it in?

Centerfold detached?

Page folded over?

They don't put those notes on the label anymore.

[fantastic_four]

If I were you, I'd definitely call and get grader's notes! Whichever defect you missed, it'll reduce the chances you'll miss something like that next time!

[BEAUMONTS]

Everything is intact, but it's not really a expensive book and I just enjoy the cover so much it's something I'm not going to sell anyways. There probably is a fault somewhere, I just put it in with some other books I bought raw and submitted for the first time. But getting back to the thread, I'm glad I didn't pay NM or a multiple because then I would have been sorely disappointed. Which happens, probably all the time. Like FF said with three pro graders, probably not a lot is missed.

[DiceX]

Standard On-Time 15 business days up to $1000 n/a $49.00

 

"Business days"

 

OK... Give it another week then.

Next week I should be getting my books back.

 

[Foolkiller]

Let me just make a shift here in the question for just a minute. What's more desirable these days... a lesser grade book (like let's even say a Fine +) with outstanding eye appeal or a high grade book (a 9.0) that doesn't look as nice, but is more structurally sound?

 

I saw what people were saying about buying raw in person, and the only books I'll buy raw (barring dollar book lots or from sellers I've bought from before) is if I can inspect the book first.

 

It's not paying multiples in and of itself which is a problem... I agree that many raw HG books in bronze and silver command well over guide raw... the troubling part as I said is the accuracy of the grading (the laziness I'm seeing in some grades as well as just plain old wrong) and the expectation of CGC prices for those raw books inaccurately graded... I guess that's what I'm targeting because that's what I'm seeing. Even when I see the books in person, and it just bothers me, even though I'm not buying it.

[drbanner]

What's more desirable these days... a lesser grade book (like let's even say a Fine +) with outstanding eye appeal or a high grade book (a 9.0) that doesn't look as nice, but is more structurally sound?

 

Pick your poison...comes down to an individual perspective, but as shown with that Marvel Spotlight 5 9.4 that just sold for over $1K, there looks to be a significant price jump for same-grade books with different levels of eye appeal (not really a new revelation, but becoming more prominent).

 

As far as high-grade raw books selling for slabbed price levels, high-grade raw books have been riding the coattails of high-grade slabbed books for a while now. I think the issue of overgrading is a separate issue, and that has always been a problem, regardless of price. As mentioned by FF, clear scans/descriptions and a return policy are necessities when buying raw books for big $$. And while no one likes to pay for returning a book, the greater the value of the book, the less the relative cost of shipping becomes...so it's an insurance policy everyone's willing to pay!

[dam60]

Even if strictly graded, a NM raw, no matter what you claim in your ad or to another dealer, simply won't fetch what the book will CGC'd. Doesn't it automatically make it a different product you're offering? Of course, the book is worth a certain value, but has the slab actually attached more value to it now because of the certification. I would say yes. Even though raw, and essentially the same thing, you can't really sell it and command the same dollars.

 

Brian, super props on a great thread

 

I haven't read the whole thing yet, so forgive me if someone else said this but the difference in buying something cgc'ed vs. raw (even if you agree on the grade) is LIQUIDITY. Personally I like my books raw and in midgrade but for keys I always get the nicest cgc copy I can afford simply because it's more liquid. Assuming that I know how to grade, if I put a NM+ book up on ebay with larger than life scans, a thorough descprition about the pq etc, the buyer is going to think to himself - "if it's so damn nice, why didn't he get it CGC'ed". It's easier to move in and out of these cgc books for a collector where as for a dealer (due more to the ability to return a book and the confidence that buyers usually have) it wouldn't be such an issue.

 

I basically see two things happening: (1) dealers will take their best stuff and get it cgc'ed or (2) dealers sitting on inventory for a long time . . . .

 

DAM

[blazingbob]

My favorite Gordan Geico quote from one of my favorite movies - Wall Street

 

Greed is Good

 

I'm joking if you haven't figured me out yet.

 

You are an exception, you 'collect', most collectors are really "dealers" who buy raw and sell the book for a lot more than they bought it for. And then they do the unthinkable, they tell the dealer that. Yup, remember that raw AS #40 I bought off you for $275, well it graded a 9.2 (Shuley cough, cough). I made $$$ off it, thanks Bob!

 

Since nothing bugs us more than somebody making money off "us, the dealer community" we collectively band together and jack up all the prices so that nobody makes any money off us, we also can't sell any books either so who wins?

 

The answer, nobody!

 

If you feel a dealer is being a pig, than call him a pig but don't do it like me, do it nicely.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Here is my theory: see what you guys think.

 

The dealer who marks a raw book at the price levels of its slabbed equivalent is not looking to sell that book to any of us that frequent this forum, or who have owned, and will continue to own CGC-graded books. The reason for this is simple; most folks who have been part of the CGC market have become, if they weren't already, very strict graders. And quite frankly, there is much more money to be made with customers who do not grade tight. (Doesn't anyone remember the stories when CGC first started; of collectors submitting books that they bought as NM, yet they came back as 7.5s and 8.0s?)

 

You have to remember that for the better part of fandom, many dealers at shows did not assign a grade to a book, they assigned a price. And all that was needed for that book to sell is ONE person who thought the condition justified the price.

 

With CGC books, the third party grade is set in stone, as is much of the market. Afterall, a CGC 9.2 is a CGC 9.2, and an informed buyer will likely have some idea of what other comparable 9.2s have sold for (through ebay, etc.) But the same book raw could be a 8.5 to one collector and a 9.4 to another. Obviously, the dealer wants to sell to the collector who thinks its a 9.4, and is willing to pay appropriately. It gives the "grading flexibility" back to dealers that CGC took away.

 

Also, this practices now removes the risk of submitting to CGC for dealers (No undergrading, no nasty restoration checks, no FMV Juice for big books).

 

Like it or not, this trend is here to stay and will likely only intensify.

 

[blazingbob]

Here is my response to the "theory"

 

1). I grade a book on 9/1/2003, If I put the grade on the book that day it would be NM-.

 

2). It sits in that box and travels for three shows, driven not flown to the show to make this simple.

 

3). It is handled a minimum of 10 times, not all of the handlers are gentle, some like to read while they flip the pages, others prefer to do the flip, flip, scan to the light etc motions.

 

4). You, the strict grader come along, you are number 11. You proceed to voice to me that this is not a NM- but a VF/NM. A half hour later you are walking away with the impression I overgrade.

 

For a true "test" of a dealers grading check a collection he just bought. Try to be the first guy in. People who saw my new collection in Baltimore were very excited. People who see it 6 months from now might not be.

 

 

[drbanner]

People who saw my new collection in Baltimore were very excited. People who see it 6 months from now might not be.

 

Is that b/c the condition of the books have de-graded over the 6 months, or is it really b/c the books you graded accurately and/or undergraded have sold, and the books you overgraded are still sitting there?

 

If you're an accurate grader and grade 100 "fresh" books with an accuracy of +/- one grade, chances are the undergraded books will sell first...and the overgraded books will take a little longer. Just a theory!

[blazingbob]

I'm surprised that as a seller you would assume that overgraded books don't sell.

No collection completely sells out, even if I graded every book accurately. The more a raw book is handled, the more wear is inflicted on it.

 

And submitting every book into CGC to prevent that wear is economically impossible based on the risk/reward factor and costs associated with doing that. Add in the turnaround times and I'm looking a buying a collection every month so that I will have one to sell 3 months later graded. Process those $$$$ and you will see why "everything" is not graded.

[drbanner]

I'm surprised that as a seller you would assume that overgraded books don't sell.

You got me there!

 

No collection completely sells out, even if I graded every book accurately. The more a raw book is handled, the more wear is inflicted on it.

 

And submitting every book into CGC to prevent that wear is economically impossible based on the risk/reward factor and costs associated with doing that. Add in the turnaround times and I'm looking a buying a collection every month so that I will have one to sell 3 months later graded. Process those $$$$ and you will see why "everything" is not graded.

 

Everything you say is true, but like Heritage employees bidding on books they're able to evaluate in person (for potential undergrades), you can be sure that when you take a new collection to a show and collectors are able to look at the books and decide for themselves, the undergraded books are going to sell first, and the overgraded books are going to sell last (all other things being equal).

 

When you look at the books six months later and see a bunch of "leftover" NM's with spine stress, who knows if you're seeing the same book that someone else noticed at that first show as a "He calls this NM? Look at those spine stresses!".

[OldGuy]

You are an exception, you 'collect', most collectors are really "dealers" who buy raw and sell the book for a lot more than they bought it for.

 

Really? I guess I'm the exception as well. Just about the only time I sell is when I've replaced a book with an upgrade. I can't remember the last time I bought as comic thinking I could turn around and sell if for a profit. I'm happy when I can get back what I paid in the first place.

 

I guess like minds tend to attract to each other. All of the comic byers I know are collectors, not dealers. But obviously you've seen more comic buyers then I ever will so I'm sure you're take is more representative of the whole then mine.

 

Are you going to the Vegas show? I'd like to meet you if you're going to be there and get the chance to contribute to the abuse of the comics you have for sale.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I'm surprised that as a seller you would assume that overgraded books don't sell.

 

I think this validates my point though; one man's "overgrade" is another man's NM.

 

My theory does not hold water for those dealers who actually assign a grade to a book, but rather, for those who price books without a defined grade, counting on the customer who is a bit more liberal with his grading to see value in a book that other, stricter graders would pass on.

 

In simplest terms, third party grading, and the stock-reporting-type market that has evolved around it, gives dealers less wiggle room and cuts into potential profits. So to price raw books at slabbed levels is a natural pricing strategy to compensate.

 

Let me also say that I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Afterall, whether its raw or slabbed, a collector has to justify the expense versus the condition to themselves anyway. It simply becomes a matter of shifting the risk of CGC submission from the seller to the buyer (if indeed the buyer wants to protect his investment that way).

 

Your point is well taken about handling though. I've been to shows where I myself wanted to strangle the schmo next to me who was holding a $1,000 comic like it was the latest issue of Playboy. Here is a odd question Bob, can you actually depreciate the value of your inventory (for tax purposes), to compensate for handling damage over time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blazingbob]

I will not be attending the Vegas show, Halloween is still very important to me and my five year old daughter.