WOW!!

[comicartfan]

I have to throw my two cents in here. The "value" of wheter the Hulk 180 is an undervalued or overvalued book isn't really the point. The importance of a cameo vs. full apperance also isn't important. 1.) - I have found the book to be really difficult to find in high grade. Period...end of story there. 2.) The demand for high grade bronze age keys, whether small or big has increased over the past year to a point that it's over riding other eras. 3.) The frenzy over Bronze books has been helped tremendously with the DD , Blade & Hulk movies....not to mention all the "rumours " about Iron Fist, Ghost Rider and Sub Mariner. 4.) I have found that comics (or anything else) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. - If I have X comic book, and this guy over here wants it, then I set a price and he buys it. Simple supply vs. demand. If there wasn't a demand, regardless of whether it's a major key book or whatever some collector's opinion of that title, then price goes down. But since there is two people, or more, than you have the highest bidder...so to speak. - Would I pay $650.00 for that book ?? NO. But would I pay $650 for a Detective 359 9.4.....HELL YES !!!! - But, Bronze Bruce might not....It's personal.

[g-man]

exactly Mike. A book or card or whatever is worth what someone at the moment is willing to pay for it. The Hulk #180 is a nice book. $650 for a 9.2? Not for me but maybe in a year or two that might be a good price in order to turn a profit on it if selling. Maybe it will be used in a trade. Who knows? It is a nice book.

[comicinvestor-migration]

A book or card or whatever is worth what someone at the moment is willing to pay for it.

 

That's exactly what I've been saying, and that a very small sub-section of the buyers are maintaining the high Hulk 180 NM prices. Take them out of the equation (they get the book, lose their job, quit collecting, etc.) and I think that comic will come back down to reality.

 

I do not see a wide-spread acceptance of $650 prices for NM copies of Hulk 180, and certainly nowhere near the level of Hulk 181.

[Mutantcollector]

Thanks for the detailed responce. I agree with the importance of Hulk # 180. I would love to own one almost as much as # 181. I am a Wolverine collector and a completionist, so owning the trilogy of Hulk # 180-181 is important to me. I have just always been used to seeing Hulk # 180 guide at such a discount of # 181. I didn't see any of those other 9.4s sell on ebay, so I haven't been able to gauge the true market value of this book. It's also hard for me to believe that # 180 is so much more rare then # 181 in high grade. I know that # 181 was hoarded, but I'm sure # 180 was hoarded also.

[blazingbob]

Whew, no mention of the Hulk 180 Seller! God, the nerve he had to post a $650 buy it now.

 

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

You made out like a bandit Bob, and congrats!

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey Mike,

 

I considered making a similar point but my post was already becoming a novel

 

I agree... in simpler terms it is a supply and demand issue relating to the value perceptions of the potential seller and buyer.

 

Like many books selling in this new "what the hell will this sell for CGC comic market", even those that are life-long sellers and others who consider themselves in tune with current happenings, are often way off on what a book will sell for. Pricing a thinly traded item with little long term sales history has to be among the more difficult pricing dilemmas. An everchanging market does not make the equation any easier.

 

Most sellers have their own methodology for developing a price on thinly traded item. There would be a few factors to consider that may include... a little science (using the CBG multiple and/or CGC census), whatever sales history is available for the book in any grade as a reference point, demand/requests the seller is personally aware of for the item and finally just their "gut" or hunch.

 

What people are willing to pay for any particular book based on their tastes and likes will vary greatly person to person. We've seen the evidence over and over again, as the exact same item can sell at a drastically different price in a span of hours.

 

Another dynamic to consider is presentation and the sales argument (hype) as to why an item is worth this or that in the seller's view. The buyer's argument is what he's willing to pay in a nutshell at auction, but in a private transaction he has more opportunity to make a counter case why its worth less. If he can do so convincingly and hold his ground, the seller may rethink his price.

 

I've also found that Ebay is not always the best place to see what a rarer book is worth. Sometimes the buyers really don't know what to bid and are watching to see what others will do (or think) and that influences their position. If however, you offer a rarer item directly to a fan that wants one, you will often find out in a hurry what they are willing to pay. One on one, people (myself included) will discover what they really think an item is worth to them when they could see it offered to someone else next. I know I've paid more privately for an item than I would have paid at auction as I've seen the item sell for less later or I bought the duplicate for less to compare them and sell the one I like least... it's funny really. At auction, you need at least 2 very interested parties to battle for the item to see the highest sell price, if there is only one at that moment... bargain time! If the same winning bidder discovered the book on a website or was presented the book privately, he may end up paying more - happily.

 

Damn... I'm off on a tangent again

 

Anyway, Hulk 180 has always been a book that I've found in my dealings off-Ebay, that many people are anxious to acquire. Many of them are Hulk 181 owners (and there are plenty of those). Some are collectors that can't afford a 181 in a grade they want to collect and 180 is the next best thing to them.

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Case and point... I did not think you had a shot in hell to sell your Iron Man 55 9.4 oww at close to $400 since they had regularly sold in the low $200's 2 months prior...but you found a buyer who agreed with your price... so hat's off to you on that one.

[g-man]

thanks BB. Sometimes patience pays off and this time it did.

[Darthdiesel]

Bruce - do you have the highest graded "trilogy" and with best page quality? How about a post for all us jealous modern guys...to see what can all hope to acheive some day

[BronzeBruce13]

Hey Vince,

 

You often present very convincing arguments that have on occasion made me re-examine my own view on a particular topic, so I would appreciate a follow up on this point if you have a moment...

 

Why do you feel it is a "very small sub section of buyers" that are maintaining Hulk 180 prices? Since there are a seemingly infinite number of Hulk 181 owners that would like to have a NM 180 as well (in my experience) what do you base that point of view on? I realize many of the same bidders, including myself, have shown up on them lately, but support for the book from collectors who are not Ebay junkies is very strong too. Do you buy and sell off-Ebay regularly? just curious.

 

BTW... After the auction ended, I was emailed by several friends and customers that said if I did not hit the BIN, they would have. At $650 (9.4 White), I believe the book would have been bought several times over... maybe 3 or 4 times if the reserve did not knock it out.

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

No Darth I don't think so.

 

I have the best 9.6 trilogy I think, as they are all White and sweet structurally. BUT Sully has a set too (180 9.6ow.. 181 9.6 oww... 182 9.6oww (was my spare) ). Another friend just completed one as well...he bought the ComicLink 9.6 180ow. His (he will remain nameless) set is better than Sully's (180 9.6ow.. 181 9.6 W (I arranged this sale for him)... 182 9.6oww double cover).

 

The BEST set, (and I can't verify this because the individual never provided scans)... but he claims to have a 9.8 White set!!! I call/email him every 3 months hoping he has changed his mind to sell, or trade me my 9.6 white set + untold thousands to swap... he keeps saying "no thanks". Hopefully some day I will convince him.

 

I would consider posting the books, but my service provider is down still for hosting images and I also don't want to look like a "look what I got, nyah, nyah" type person either. Maybe I'll email them to you at some point.

 

[BronzeBruce13]

My pleasure... I would respectfully disagree... I think if they were hoarded, and were in high supply in NM or better, many more would have hit the market by now as clearly many are surprised at the prices they've fetched and would want to cash in. I guess we'll see.

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

Basically what I am saying is this:

 

The spread between Hulk 181 and 180 is unrealistic at this point, and is being propped up (on EBay) by a small sub-section of buyers who seem to congregate en masse whenever a 180 is listed. You may have had good luck off-EBay, but the values are out of whack with what I've experienced compared to 181.

 

For example, I know of dozens of hardcore collectors who would write a blank check for a Hulk 181 CGC 9.8, but scoff at some of the current prices on Hulk 180. They're mostly high-grade "Key Issue" collectors and don't see Hulk 180 as anything more than a 1-panel cameo.

 

That cash (to them anyway) would be better served funding a nice TRUE key issue in CGC 9.6-9.8 high-grade. Again, you "trilogy collectors" keep right on truckin', but I don't see the mass market adopting Hulk 180 and 182 as sound long-term (10+ year) investments.

 

Or as one of my buddies emailed me after he saw the link:

 

"It's one FREAKIN' panel!".

[Darthdiesel]

The BEST set, (and I can't verify this because the individual never provided scans)... but he claims to have a 9.8 White set!!!

 

Call me a doubting Thomas...I've had guys with full knowledge of the existence of a census, claim that they have a USM 1 CGC 10.0 white variant...at which point I told them to pinch themselves and wake the f up!

 

Not saying your friend doesn't have the 9.8 as claimed. Sometimes, it goes into the BSD, ego massaging, one-uppance phase and we start talking ...

 

I know you are for real and I believe that you should make a select few of these posters here cry with your books...they deserve it for the most part and wouldn't be able to realize a good book until it slaps them in the face!

 

Oh and in the immortal words of CI, "Blow me!" ...just had to get that in there, and not meant for you Bruce...

 

How about a pic of your lovely "wife" holding the trilogy then? I can never get enough of that

[BronzeBruce13]

Basically what I am saying is this: The spread between Hulk 181 and 180 is unrealistic at this point, and is being propped up (on EBay) by a small sub-section of buyers who seem to congregate en masse whenever a 180 is listed. You may have had good luck off-EBay, but the values are out of whack with what I've experienced compared to 181. For example, I know of dozens of hardcore collectors who would write a blank check for a Hulk 181 CGC 9.8, but scoff at some of the current prices on Hulk 180. They're mostly high-grade "Key Issue" collectors and don't see Hulk 180 as anything more than a 1-panel cameo.

 

> I hear you, but I think part of the problem with the perception that the spread is "too close" between 180 and 181 is the whole designation of 180 as a "cameo" or "1 panel appearance" Isn't that a term better used for stupid piece of jewelry with a little woman's head in profile? Anyway, to some (like yourself) having it labeled as such seems to devalue it and make it less significant (Scarlet letter "C")... to others who don't really characterize it as anything other than the 1st time the character appeared, the term is just a meaningless word. To the many Wolverine fans out there I've spoken with, 180 has far more significance than what a "cameo" seems to be taken for. Regardless of what other character's cameos sell for in relation to their first full appearance... each "cameo" occurrence (or limited first appearance) is as unique as a fingerprint. There is no real all encompassing definition for using the term in my mind... but that's me. As Phil pointed out, I also wonder why Overstreet chose to label 180... "1st app. Wolvereine (cameo last pg.)" instead of simply "Wolverine cameo" as other characters have received?

 

NOTE: although we only saw Wolverine in the last panel... isn't "Weapon X" referred to within the story too? So there is a build up... we know something is going to happen...Wolverine does not show up unannounced, so to speak. Even at the end of Hulk 179 they are already announcing his coming... Once again WENDIGO...and a STARTLING Guest Star! It always struck me as being a wee bit more significant than what "cameo" seems to mean for all these reasons.

 

Off the Wall Question: If a new character is mentioned throughout a story and something significant is revealed, but he is not shown at all, even in a shadow...what is that called? (if it has even happened)... Does anybody know? Is that a worthless issue in regards to the character because he was not illustrated?

 

That cash (to them anyway) would be better served funding a nice TRUE key issue in CGC 9.6-9.8 high-grade. Again, you "trilogy collectors" keep right on truckin', but I don't see the mass market adopting Hulk 180 and 182 as sound long-term (10+ year) investments. Or as one of my buddies emailed me after he saw the link: "It's one FREAKIN' panel!".

 

>I wouldn't argue vehemently against the fact that there may better investments for $650 long term if a "return" is your only goal, but I think the vast majority of people interested in buying a Hulk 180 are more fans/collectors, or at worst hybrids... not exclusive investors. Investors would obviously key on 181... (and aren't exclusive investors really the smaller subset of the market and do their attitudes really reflect the majority opinion?) Fans/Collectors want 180 and 182 (the little brothers) to sandwich the "key". They are completionists and may not even think they will make a fortune with the book, but believe they won't lose either. Some don't care... I would keep my 9.6W in the face of ridiculous offers to pry it from me because it means something to me... or if the market totally crashes like you and Gene predict... I still hold it irrationally all the way down to $100... others feel the same too.

 

Thanks for the follow up CI... I guess there is not too much more to be said as neither of us will move off our opinion.

 

[jordanabigail]

To piggyback on Bruce's comments:

 

What difference does it make if ol Wolvie showed up in one panel or two or three...the point is that Hulk 180 is THE VERY FIRST TIME ANYONE AND THEIR MOTHER saw Wolverine. The very first time. That is significant.

[chrisco37]

Off the Wall Question: If a new character is mentioned throughout a story and something significant is revealed, but he is not shown at all, even in a shadow...what is that called? (if it has even happened)... Does anybody know? Is that a worthless issue in regards to the character because he was not illustrated?

 

The situation you describe is one that we've gone over a couple different times. remember, in the early ASM issues, Aunt May tried to hook Peter up with her neighbor, Mrs. Watson's niece (MJ). She was mentioned in many issues, but did not 'appear' until #42 (her recognized 1st appearance.). I'm really bad with recalling specific issue #'s, but didn't she also made a brief appearance in #25, although her face wasn't shown. (I hope I get this right). Maybe one of the other board members can give you a better breakdown of this. But, my point was (I guess) that what you describe has happened before.

 

Chris (still 'recovering' from weekend)

[blowout]

as mentioned before on the board, the situation with MJ's first appearance is VERY confusing:

 

ASM #15 or 16 first mention of 'mrs. watson's niece'

ASM #17 mary jane's name first mentioned by aunt may

ASM #25 mary jane's first appearance (face not shown)

ASM #42 first time face shown (but only in last panel 'cameo app.')

ASM #59 first MJ cover

 

because of all these cameo's and references, no one is really sure when MJ's first full appearance was (none of the above) and therefore no single issue can really be valued as such.

a unique case i think, but a very interesting one in relation to this discussion

[vic6string]

As long as you're looking at cameos, don't forget the FF issue with the black costume that predates Secret Wars 8 (I think it was 274). It was one of the first appearances of the black costume. And then there is the "Warlock's hand coming out of the cocoon" on FF 67, or the issue just before where they begin talking about "HIM" which is a pre-appearance, verbal cameo of Warlock.

 

Whatever.