I just learned that grading terms are "subjective"

[Rocketeer]

...I got a book from E-bay today that was supposed to be graded a VF+,...now I know that you always deduct 2.0 from a grade and bid accordingly and I did so for the most part,...I bid $36.00 for a Batman #149 which I assumed for the most part would be a solid 6.0 maybe 6.5,... linkage

 

...So I get the book yesterday and there are two water stains on the back cover and about 8-9 color breaking stress marks on the spine with maybe another 6 or so non-color breaking,...not a bad book but nowhere near an 8.5,...I'd say 5.0-5.5,...not an ugly book mind you, but not one that I would pay $36.00 for,...

 

 

...So I think for the first time in years I ask the seller for a refund,...now the listing has no mention of a return policy,...so I realize that the buyer could just say no,...and I would accept that and go on my merry way ,..another lesson learned,...

 

...however I changed my mind when I get this answer from the seller for my return request:

 

Howdy,

I know that the terms of vf, g, f+ etc are all very subjective (which I specifically made note of in the auction) which is why I gave a detailed description. Could you tell me how the description was inaccurate please.

Thanks,

 

...my reply was the term "VF+" in the title was the description that I found inacurrate,...and I replied with this:

thanks for clearing things up for me. Now that I know that the terms of vf, g, f+ etc are all very subjective, I can understand why the comic you listed as a VF+ is actually a VG/F,....how stupid of me not to realize it earlier,...however I also find E-bay's feedback terms very subjective as well,...I really don't see much difference between a positive, neutral or a negative,...that is why I decided to give you a negative and to give a "detailed description" as to why, so there is no mis-understanding.

 

 

...The sad part is he would have gotten away with it if he hadn't pulled the whole "grading is subjective " defense and how the terms G, F+, and VF are all interchangable,...so my question is,....

 

 

....Would I wrong to Neg him?,...

[*]null

[nochips]

I got a negative last week. No email from the buyer, he just slammed me for a 10.00 book. I would have been happy to take the book back or make a price concession. The negative without merit it ebay's downfall. I was given no chance to make things right, none at all. So, that being said, ask to send it back, give him a chance to say no, then blast him with the negative.....it's his feedback were talking about....

[drewincanada]

I once got a "grading is subjective" combined with a "you were just hoping you'd get a steal, but you didn't so now you want to return the book".

[Rocketeer]

...well I already asked him for a return,..that's when I got the "grading is subjective" cr@p,..response,...I would never Neg someone w/o first giving them a chance to right things,..

[sckao]

...well I already asked him for a return,..that's when I got the "grading is subjective" cr@p,..response,...I would never Neg someone w/o first giving them a chance to right things,..

 

Why are you so mad about his "grading is subjective" response when the same phrase is

in the body of his auction?

 

"Howdy, I'm offering a very nice copy of Batman 149. I know that grading is subjective so will try to be as accurate as possible in the description. The front cover is firmly attached with only very minor wear, good gloss and only slight corner rounding. The spine has only a few very small stress lines. The back cover shows some rubbing wear mostly towards spine but is mostly white and bright. The pages are white to OW. There are no major rips, folds or creases. Please see my other auctions."

 

 

[Rocketeer]

...well I already asked him for a return,..that's when I got the "grading is subjective" cr@p,..response,...I would never Neg someone w/o first giving them a chance to right things,..

 

Why are you so mad about his "grading is subjective" response when the same phrase is

in the body of his auction?

 

"Howdy, I'm offering a very nice copy of Batman 149. I know that grading is subjective so will try to be as accurate as possible in the description. The front cover is firmly attached with only very minor wear, good gloss and only slight corner rounding. The spine has only a few very small stress lines. The back cover shows some rubbing wear mostly towards spine but is mostly white and bright. The pages are white to OW. There are no major rips, folds or creases. Please see my other auctions."

 

 

..because he listed the book in the title as : Batman 149 very fine +

 

...you don't see a problem with that?

 

[Aces]

...well I already asked him for a return,..that's when I got the "grading is subjective" cr@p,..response,...I would never Neg someone w/o first giving them a chance to right things,..

 

Why are you so mad about his "grading is subjective" response when the same phrase is

in the body of his auction?

 

"Howdy, I'm offering a very nice copy of Batman 149. I know that grading is subjective so will try to be as accurate as possible in the description. The front cover is firmly attached with only very minor wear, good gloss and only slight corner rounding. The spine has only a few very small stress lines. The back cover shows some rubbing wear mostly towards spine but is mostly white and bright. The pages are white to OW. There are no major rips, folds or creases. Please see my other auctions."

 

 

..because he listed the book in the title as : Batman 149 very fine +

 

...you don't see a problem with that?

 

Sarcasm.

[Aces]

...well I already asked him for a return,..that's when I got the "grading is subjective" cr@p,..response,...I would never Neg someone w/o first giving them a chance to right things,..

 

Why are you so mad about his "grading is subjective" response when the same phrase is

in the body of his auction?

 

"Howdy, I'm offering a very nice copy of Batman 149. I know that grading is subjective so will try to be as accurate as possible in the description. The front cover is firmly attached with only very minor wear, good gloss and only slight corner rounding. The spine has only a few very small stress lines. The back cover shows some rubbing wear mostly towards spine but is mostly white and bright. The pages are white to OW. There are no major rips, folds or creases. Please see my other auctions."

 

 

..because he listed the book in the title as : Batman 149 very fine +

 

...you don't see a problem with that?

 

Sarcasm.

 

Besides he didn't say there weren't water stains on the back did he?

 

 

More Sarcasm

[synch]

I brought a FF #49 witha rip in the cover one time were ebay the way it were today he would have got him self a negative for not stating as such So my answer is clear with the water damage and all

 

 

[Davenport]

 

..because he listed the book in the title as : Batman 149 very fine +

 

...you don't see a problem with that?

I think with listings like that you have to be careful and aware "Grade" may be a very poor means of communication. To the untrained-eye defects like numerous small spine ticks and tidelines don't impact a comic book like it does for someone speaking CGC-ese.

 

Plus they may be judging a book against typical ratty copies. So... with no long angle creases, big tears, or large scuffs and they think the book looks amazingly nice for it's age. They might think "it ain't Mint, I know not to go there. But it's really, really nice. It's gotta be very-fine compared to those other ones. Heck, maybe very-fine-plus. It sure ain't torn or beat up."

 

Consider how many versions of Overstreet someone on eBay could be speaking, going all the way back through the years. The odds of your VF+ and his VF+ matching become slim to none, without sinister intent.

 

The tough part is separating eBay-misundertandings from eBay-scam.

[Scrooge]

Howdy,

I know that the terms of vf, g, f+ etc are all very subjective (which I specifically made note of in the auction) which is why I gave a detailed description. Could you tell me how the description was inaccurate please.

Thanks,

 

 

The guy was polite in his reply to you and was just asking you what you saw in the book that prevented it from being grading VF+ Why go ballistic on him instead of stating your claim like you did here?

[Rocketeer]

...I agree...that's why I figured it to be a F-F+ maybe,..I'm well aware of the E-bay curve,...I just don't appreciate the sellers attitude,...you can't call a book VF+ and then say later that the differences between a G, VF and F are all subjective,...you can't have it both ways,...I just don't like the why her is greasing himself out of a refund,...it rubs me the wrong way,...I would have had more respect for him if he just said "sorry no refunds" than to give a BS answer like that,...that's all,...

[Rocketeer]

Howdy,

I know that the terms of vf, g, f+ etc are all very subjective (which I specifically made note of in the auction) which is why I gave a detailed description. Could you tell me how the description was inaccurate please.

Thanks,

 

 

The guy was polite in his reply to you and was just asking you what you saw in the book that prevented it from being grading VF+ Why go ballistic on him instead of stating your claim like you did here?

 

..yeah I don't see it that way,..perspective is subjective as well I guess,...

[JBerg]

ok any independent rating system should be objective. the point of CGC is to use an objective set of criteria to analyze the quality of the book at hand. in rating a book, the seller should try to be as objective as possible, but economic bias tends to cause subjectiveness to surface in the rating. therefore, it is a poor excuse to say that it is subjective because the aim of a rating is to be as fair as possible. therefore, neg him and then smoke crack with your monkey

[nik]

Neg the dikhead and be done with it

[GAMBIT]

If the book in question was "graded" VF+ and came in as a VG. then there is no question, you should get a refund. since there is a HUGE difference in a VG book (4.0/5.0) to a VF book (7.0-8.5)... Like you said in your first post. when buying on ebay, you always have to knock it down at least 1 full grade (if raw) and bid accordingly.. However 4 full points (8 grades!) that is un acceptable and warrants a negative feedback for his BS reply/scam tactic

 

My

[Davenport]

...I agree...that's why I figured it to be a F-F+ maybe,..I'm well aware of the E-bay curve,...I just don't appreciate the sellers attitude,...you can't call a book VF+ and then say later that the differences between a G, VF and F are all subjective,...you can't have it both ways,...I just don't like the why her is greasing himself out of a refund,...it rubs me the wrong way,...I would have had more respect for him if he just said "sorry no refunds" than to give a BS answer like that,...that's all,...

I'm just going by what you posted. It looks like you might've "projected" onto the guy because your expectations were dashed. Like...

 

He says:

"Howdy,

I know that the terms of vf, g, f+ etc are all very subjective (which I specifically made note of in the auction) which is why I gave a detailed description. Could you tell me how the description was inaccurate please.

Thanks,"

 

Which got your dander up...

"...The sad part is he would have gotten away with it if he hadn't pulled the whole "grading is subjective " defense and how the terms G, F+, and VF are all interchangable,...so my question is,...Would I wrong to Neg him"?

 

When I read it he doesn't say "interchangable", you do. And thinking he's saying that makes you angry.

 

If you re-read his email it seems like he's saying (all grades) "are all very subjective ". And they are, aren't they? Even with pro-grade a 4.0 can become 9.0 if you squint just right. Grades being "Subjective" is an understatement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr.Silvestri]

OVERSTREET gives a price of $24 in VERY GOOD & $42 in FINE.....

 

Were you hoping to get a $161 book for dirt cheap and only pay $36+ shipping

from the seller... Had the book been better than VF+ would you have sent him / her more money because YOU GOT A GREAT DEAL

 

NO you wouldn't - I'm sure you'd laugh your off knowing you got one heck of a deal..but then since things didn't go your way and the seller sold a book at around guide price your not happy anymore and you take advantage of this situation and slam them a NEG because you know he can't give one back..

 

You think it would be right if the seller slammed you with a NEG because you didn't spend more & he asks you to pay more for the book and you walk away and not go thru witht he deal ??

 

Your very fine condition IS subjective to some one else's because not everyone grades the same (maybe close) & did you ever ask the seller for a larger scan or picture of the book before you bought it - prob not since I'm sure this was an impulse buy or last minute find.

 

It's funny because this seller (IMO) did what most people do and give a good description of there items only to have someone having a bad day turn around and wine when they didn't get the GREAT sale they were hoping for plus not asking questions before the auction ended..

 

I think your the person in the wrong for not following through with the questions.

 

Karma to you...

[mysterymachine]

Sounds to me that since he doesn't seem to be sure about his grading he wanted to hear from you about what defects you saw that he missed. He might have agreed to refund your money if you took it to the next step or maybe not, but now you'll never know.

[comix4fun]

The seller chose to use the term "very fine +"

 

That term comes with a definition and an expectation that is known within the hobby and creates an expectation on the part of the buyer.

 

If he truly felt that grading was subjective he should have used words other than the words and terms that have specific meaning and definition within the hobby.

 

He also chose to list his item on ebay so what the final selling price is is irrelevant.

 

The term "very fine+" is a term that creates an expectation of quality and condition on the part of the buyer that cannot be undone by the use of "subjective" later on.

 

It's really pretty simple. If the seller wants to use the terms of the trade he should probably learn the trade or accept the consequences.

 

To analogize this another way...."This car is in mint condition and a real beauty, but that's really subjective"....that little tag on the end doesn't let the seller pass off a lemon on to you.

 

C