Are there any keys here?

[Schmakt]

I don't understand why Harbinger #1 is on the list.

 

Confirmed sales of $2,000+ for a CGC 9.8 regular issue book from 1992 and it's not a key?

 

Then what is it?

 

Your later point about Harby being the first 100% Valiant book makes a lot of sense... I'd reconsider it for that... but the 9.8 prices don't, in my mind, justify a book's "key-ness"... Harbinger is notorious for being difficult to find in high grade due to the physical act of creation of the book... bad card stock or what have you. Just b/c a book had problems being printed which resulted in an abnormal scarcity of HG issues shouldn't make that a key. After all, we should consider books that are important to a "Copper Age" collection regardless of grade...

right? AF 15 is key no matter what the grade... or Hulk 181... or whatever...

 

as far as general scarcity goes, we'd have to start considering those scarce Flex Mentallo issues and, while desirable, I don't think anyone would call them key...

 

I think that MatMarvel made a good point about books becoming linked in a reader's psyche, and Joe made a good point about books selling well even not in grade...

 

But, like you said... with Harby actually being the first 100% pure VALIANT... I'm wavering now.

 

There's still something in me that would rather call Solar 10 more key than Harbinger 1. For me, at least, Solar 10 is more inexorably linked to VALIANT than Harby 1 is. But it might still be b/c I'm biased and never really cared for the story all that much. :-/

 

 

 

As to what sckao was saying about Crow/Dawn vs. Evil Ernie/Lady Death... I honestly can't say that Cry for Dawn was that much of a key, but it does seem to still have a pretty solid following... the book was popular enough that it was counterfeitted... and #1 still commands a premium.

 

The Crow has a huge underground fanbase... many of whom are not interested in comics as a medium per se. With the movies (and Brandon Lee's untimely death) and its general association with "goth" it just seems like The Crow has more to stand on than EE and LD. There also actually seemed to be more substance as far as the story and characters go for The Crow and Dawn than the other two. And here is where I start to show my ignorance tho having only read the very occasional issues of either Lady Death or Evil Ernie...

 

 

(I like this thread)

[sckao]

I surprised that these books didn't make the list. I was going to mention them but felt they might not be keys.

 

Arkham Asylum (Batman) - hardcover

Tick #1 or Tick #1 Special Edition

G.I. Joe #1

Transformers #1

 

We can add them later. It's an ongoing list. I just grabbed what I thought I saw from various threads for Copper Age Keys. (thumbs u

 

Something like Transformers #1... When I would rack display that issue, it would always be by Thundercats #1 and Masters of the Universe #1.

 

What's striking is that a lot of issues are essentially "devalued" or "de-keyed" by more recent events or as the characters themselves lose public interest.

 

There's only one First Appearance usually which is set in stone... but deaths of characters are, of course, transient. (Which means that books like Crisis 7, 8 lose much of their power.)

 

A modern book like ASM vol 2 #36 will not lose its significance any time soon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Schmakt]

I surprised that these books didn't make the list. I was going to mention them but felt they might not be keys.

 

Arkham Asylum (Batman) - hardcover

Tick #1 or Tick #1 Special Edition

G.I. Joe #1

Transformers #1

 

I thought about The Tick too... it seemed more key to me than some of the other Indys that were mentioned, but a lot of that could be due to my age and the fact that The Tick was definitely "cool" during my more formative years... I could probably be convinced that The Tick should be on the list... I sure loved that cartoon......

 

I have a problem with GI Joe and Transformers just b/c they were "property" books, and I couldn't tell you a single thing that they really did for Comics. Except for, I suppose, sell.

 

that hardcover... I still feel like I see it laying around a lot. It doesn't really seem like it did a lot to further the Batman mythos in a deep and far-reaching way.

[Schmakt]

I surprised that these books didn't make the list. I was going to mention them but felt they might not be keys.

 

Arkham Asylum (Batman) - hardcover

Tick #1 or Tick #1 Special Edition

G.I. Joe #1

Transformers #1

 

What's striking is that a lot of issues are essentially "devalued" or "de-keyed" by more recent events or as the characters themselves lose public interest.

 

 

And this is why, with the Copper Age in such recent history and the lack of hindsight, it is so difficult to pin down exactly which books we are talking about. We're all just speculators.

[sckao]

So far, it's been pretty clear what is considered a Copper Age Key and what isn't...

 

LINK TO POLL:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=44&Number=2522483&Searchpage=6&Main=132608&Words=Copper+Age+Keys+Poll&topic=0&Search=true#Post2522483

 

Unanimous Consensus for the Copper Age Key Designation as of 7/29/08:

 

Amazing Spider-man #300

Bone #1

Daredevil #168

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1

Sandman #1, #8

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1

Watchmen #1

 

ONE VOTE AGAINST:

 

Albedo #2

Batman: The Killing Joke

Harbinger #1

Primer #2

Swamp Thing #37

Wolverine Limited Series

 

 

[General Zod]

The 5 votes against G.I. Joe #21 are just

 

Silent issue, first appearance of Storm Shadow, all around cool story and one that nearly everybody has read by now thanks to word of mouth.

[Schmakt]

The 5 votes against G.I. Joe #21 are just

 

Silent issue, first appearance of Storm Shadow, all around cool story and one that nearly everybody has read by now thanks to word of mouth.

 

I voted against it...

I guess I just felt like it was one of those things subject to large swings in its popularity and perceived value. I'm prepared to eat my words on this one, but I'll be surprised if it commands as much interest in five years as it does now. If the title is still being published somewhere by then, it's got a great chance of sticking around. I guess my thinking hinged on not believing that it will stick around for that much longer.

 

I am not, btw, the one vote against Harby 1... I waver, but Greg (that's you, right, valiantman?) pushed my over the tipping point.

 

oh... and I have not read GI Joe 21... so if anyone wants to give me a copy...

[valiantman]

I am not, btw, the one vote against Harby 1... I waver, but Greg (that's you, right, valiantman?) pushed my over the tipping point.

 

Yep, I'm Greg. (thumbs u

 

oh... and I have not read GI Joe 21... so if anyone wants to give me a copy...

 

Same here.

[He11blazer]

Bring back Swamp Thing #37 into the list!

 

Considering Alan Moore therein introduced a character whose own series survives uninterrupted from copper, through the dark days, to the present and shortly to hit issue 250, has already had the Hollywood bastardization treatment and has spawned at least half a dozen mini-series, as well as a couple of novels...

 

Yeah, it's a key.

 

 

 

[brasseye]

 

oh... and I have not read GI Joe 21... so if anyone wants to give me a copy...

 

Same here.

 

And your very much not likely to either

[joe_collector]

A lot of those books in the poll, like Spider-man 1, the Valiants, Spawn, etc. are Modern, not Copper Age.

[sckao]

A lot of those books in the poll, like Spider-man 1, the Valiants, Spawn, etc. are Modern, not Copper Age.

 

It depends on what you define as the end of the Copper Age.

 

If the formation of Image Comics marks the end of the Copper Age, then you're talking roughly July 1992.

 

If the end of the Copper Age is the publication of Crisis on Infinite Earths, then it's April 1985 to March 1986.

 

If you accept Geppi, then Spawn #1 is part of the Modern Age. (May 1992)

 

Spider-man #1 is August 1990 if you're pushing the end of the Copper Age all the way back to 1990.

 

From Geppi again:

 

[Schmakt]

I like the idea of marking it with the formation of Image... that, being a culmination of slow changes of the past decade or so, really changed the entire dynamic of the comic book industry... shipping, publishing, talent/publisher relations, capitalizing on market glut...

 

and if the Bronze age is really creeping up to '84 or so, it hardly seems right to constrict the Copper age to such a short span of time in the 80's.

[vic6string]

Man, I forgot how much I liked this forum...been about 5 years since I last posted anything!

 

There is one thing no one is mentioning: Key issues change all the time. Just think about what happened to the Jackyl books in Amazing Spidey when the clone saga started. They were instantly bumped up to key Bronze status overnight. Or what about the Gold Key Turok, Dr Solar, and Magnus books that sat in quarter bins for decades until Valiant decided to bring them back from the dead?

 

What if Marvel decided to buy out Valiant and introduce those characters to the Marvel Universe? What would happen to the intro of X-O manowar if it became a blockbuster movie? What if Rogue suddenly got her own series with some major re-write by the next generation's Frank Miller or Alan Moore and became a major movie hit?

 

And just because a book is considered a key now doesn't mean it will be a year from now, or five or ten years from now. ROM #1 was a key book for quite a while, as was the aformentioned Spidey book that intro'd the clones. 5 years from now look back at this thread and you may be saying "what were we thinking saying Bone#1 was a key?" or "how could we have not mentioned Shadowman's introduction"

[joe_collector]

I like the idea of marking it with the formation of Image... that, being a culmination of slow changes of the past decade or so, really changed the entire dynamic of the comic book industry...

 

Slow changes? Did you hit a comic book shop during the Spider-man #1, X-Men #1 and X-Force #1 variant, limited edition, retailer version madness in 1990-91? Or the launch of the Valiant line in 1990? That's what started it all, and Image was only one of the results.

 

This revisionist history stuff at OS is truly bizarre, it's like those in charge of the publication have all gone senile and can't even remember what happened in the early-90's.

 

And virtually no one outside of OS thinks that the BA went until 1984 - that's just a pile of dealers looking to sell common Copper Age as "rare high-grade Bronze".

[joe_collector]

It depends on what you define as the end of the Copper Age.

 

Obviously, he's wrong, unless you really, truly feel that Valiant Comics which were launched its superhero line in 1990, are Copper Age books?

 

If so, then

 

BTW, Geppi also firmly believes that Ghost Rider, Luke Cage, The Defenders, Thanos, WBN, Dracula, Starlin's Captain Marvel, Conan, Red Sonja, Kull, Darkseid, and a host of other characters, are all Silver Age.

 

This guy should get his own Vegas show.

[sckao]

 

Ghost Rider August 1972

Luke Cage June 1972

The Defenders December 1971

Thanos February 1973

WBN February 1972

Dracula April 1972

Starlin's Captain Marvel (It's interesting that you break out Starlin's Captain Marvel) Dec 1967

Conan October 1970

Red Sonja February 1973

Kull

Darkseid November 1970

 

Yeah... I wouldn't call those Silver Age except for Captain Marvel. Personally, I associate the end of the Silver Age with the end of 12 cent comics. (1969)

 

 

[divad]

Ghost Rider August 1972

Luke Cage June 1972

The Defenders December 1971

Thanos February 1973

WBN February 1972

Dracula April 1972

Starlin's Captain Marvel (It's interesting that you break out Starlin's Captain Marvel) Dec 1967

Conan October 1970

Red Sonja February 1973

Kull

Darkseid November 1970

 

Yeah... I wouldn't call those Silver Age except for Captain Marvel. Personally, I associate the end of the Silver Age with the end of 12 cent comics. (1969)

 

 

Agree for the most part, although it doesn't need to be a bright line . . . many 15-cent books qualify as SA books in terms of presentation and style. For me, anything post-Conan #1 is BA. If I were to put an issue at the tail end of BA it just might be DD #181 - or circa that time - when production values changed again significantly.

[joe_collector]

Starlin's Captain Marvel (It's interesting that you break out Starlin's Captain Marvel)

 

Well, the original run of the Captain Marvel comic was canceled, and this Volume 2 was definitely a Bronze run in its tone and subject matter. It was also quite a different character than the old SA one.

[joe_collector]

[if I were to put an issue at the tail end of BA it just might be DD #181 - or circa that time - when production values changed again significantly.

 

There is some merit to that, as it's the last great comic book death, one of the BA tenets. But I prefer X-Men 137, as the market did changed significantly in 1981, and I feel that DD 181 is more of a BA aftershock.